“We believe the prerequisite for meaningful diplomacy and real peace is a stronger Ukraine, capable of deterring and defending against any future aggression,” Blinken said in a speech in Finland, which recently became NATO’s newest member and shares a long border with Russia.
Supporting Ukraine is the only U.S. military action since WW2 that I can truly support. Even our action in response to 9/11 was fucked up.
Same, its one of the only decisions the US has made that is pretty solidly good.
Ah yes. Good old Joe Biden repositioning his troops from Afghanistan to Ukraine.
There are US troops in Ukraine? You are privy to some information we’re not?
As a belgian and therefore european, I disagree. US is making war by proxy here and WE are paying the price.
I am not for war but I have nothing to justify an irreducible support to Ukraine and interference with Russia.
NOPE
Agreed. This situation is far more complicated than the western mainstream media wants to convince people it is. This wasn’t a conflict that was born at the outset of war. There’s a reason why there’s ‘zero’ mention of things like the Minsk Accords or any considerations given to Eurasian security arrangements. Here’s an excellent primer on the background involved. I’m not at all trying to say what Russia did was justified, but they’ve got far more of a moral plateau to stand on than the US does.
Then you are morally okay with Ukraine being wiped off the map and the murder of as many of its citizen as Putin’s army can manage.
Dude, do you honestly think Putin is trying to militarily annihilate Ukraine? Especially when he considers Russians and Ukrainians to share the same cultural lineage and history. He made numerous overtures to try and ‘avoid’ a conflict from breaking out. Why was the west so adamantly against laying the framework for a security arrangement that made sense for all the parties involved?
He made numerous overtures to try and ‘avoid’ a conflict from breaking out.
Putin: “If you allow this country to have protection from me invading it, I’m going to invade it.”
U.S.: “Yeah… we’re going to consider allowing them protection from you.”
Putin: “Oh no… somebody stop me from invading this other country…! Here I go, I’m gonna invaaaade…”
U.S.: “Okay.”
[Putin invades Ukraine, begins murdering Ukrainians]
U.S., months later: “Alright that’s enough, we’re going to help these Ukranians to keep you from murdering them.”
Putin and his sheep: “tHe U.S. iS wArMoNgErInG!!!1!!”What do you think the Minsk Accords were?
Further acquiescence to a terrorist country’s demands?
Non-binding treaties negotiated under duress that all fell apart the moment the ink was put to paper, through which Russia tried to control Ukrainian internal affairs?
This has been a major reality check for me personally. For years I shook my head at the gargantuan US military budget thinking it’s ridiculous. Fast forward to February 2022 and I realize it’s the US once again cleaning up when Europe shits the bed. Ashamed, thankful and thoroughly convinced we need to spend a whole lot more in defense as well.
Idk about all that. The US has supported Ukraine and I support that. But Europe has stepped up to the plate too. While US refused to provide long range HIMARS, UK provided Storm Shadow. Poland has donated about all it has. Realistically, the US could drastically reduce it’s defense spending, provide all the support Ukraine could want, and still maintain the largest military force by a large margin.
Well that’s what I’m saying. European countries are giving all they’ve got to give while the US hardly breaks a sweat, yet the US provides a disproportionately large amount compared to the rest. Europe would be in a lot more trouble without the US, once again.
And I agree the UK deserves a lot of credit for pushing the envelope with tanks and long range and being the security provider for Sweden and Finland during the application process.
I think we mostly agree. I just disagree with your claim that the US should spend more on Defense.
I didn’t say the US should spend more, but Europe. Speaking as a European. E: trying to see if editing helps this federate.
Hard agree with Blinken here.
honestly, i can’t see how any reasonable person wouldn’t.
edit: russia has proven, repeatedly, that they don’t honor their agreements. the only way that they won’t invade again is if they’re kicked out and if Ukraine has a modern military fully capable of kicking russia’s ass if it tries again.
Ha, the local tankies are starting to find out that they’re outnumbered by reddit-fuges. Still, I believe that barring a negotiated peace, the war will continue for many, many years. The alternatives are either Russian withdraw and/or regime change or Ukrainian collapse, and neither seem likely in the near future. Even Kissinger, which is as blood-thirsty as they come, has suggested a negotiated peace, and it’s hard to imagine a negotiation that doesn’t concede something to Russia. The question isn’t a moral one. The deaths will continue to pile up until negotiation begins.
look, no reasonable person wants war-- but that’s the problem: those who started the war and are continuing it aren’t being reasonable. And they’re not going to negotiate any sort of peace if they don’t get what they wanted by stating the war in the first place: a slice of Ukraine. so, also believe there won’t be any peace until Russia leaves Ukraine, and that may take years to convince them to do-- at the barrel of a gun, sadly. Possibly a Russian regime change.
as for the local tankies… i don’t know how much of that you read, but when attempts at rational arguments failed, they just resorted to personal attacks and bullying, which is nothing foreign to me. battle-hardened with the most toxic of reddit trolls, it just rolls of my back. :P
I initially joined lemmy about 2 years ago, and the place was swamped with them. They have their own instance they hide out on, which lemmy.ml federates with but beehaw.org and sopuli.xyz do not. It will be interesting to see how the lemmy landscape evolves as time passes on.
yeah… i have an account on both lemmy.ml, and on beehaw.org. currently, I’m sticking with lemmy.ml just because I want to see more content, and I think I an handle the shitty people due to having a think skin, but it’s nice to know that there are nicer instanes, should i need to deal with it on those terms.
Is there a way to block an entire instance in Lemmy like you can with mastodon? Or to just hide all the posts from them?
This thread has made me realize how insufferable they are
I don’t think so, at least not yet. I think the alternative is to sign up for an instance that doesn’t federate with them.
Yup, I also have an account on Beehaw but I’ve been switching back and forth since the local feed on this instance hasore traffic. I’ve found the community to be a lot more pleasant over there though
Ukraine will at least need to make some sort of compromise over the port at Sevastopol. From what I understand, that’s the only port available for Russia’s Black Sea fleet. Russia has historically held a naval base there and would likely be unyielding on that point. Forcing Russia to butt out is one thing, but them losing significant amounts of their defense capability is another.
heh, I’m sure Russia very much feels this way, but I don’t see how Ukraine needs to make any compromises at all, nor why Russia should be given the opportunity to save any face. They got themselves into this mess and have done some terrible things. They deserve to crawl away with their tails between their legs with nothing to show for it. Why should they get anything after what they’ve done?
I fully agree that Russia crawling away with their tail between their legs would be the ideal solution. But at what price? Russia would be willing to spill a lot of blood over that base, even compared to an already bloody war. The reality is that starting negotiations with the assumption that the end agreement will include guarantees around Sevastopol will save a lot of lives without making a huge change from the 2014 status quo.
the price is Ukranian freedom, and it’s worth fighting for until Russia backs down. There is no rational argument to be made for Ukraine sacrificing the freedom of its citizens, for if they do - if Russia learns it can bully Ukraine into sacrificing its citizens and land - it will just come back for more.
russia has proven it will not honor its agreements, or this war would not be happening now. they need to learn their lesson and be beaten.
But is it so important to have that patch of ground in Crimea? It would also give Ukraine a snap back mechanism if Russia ever reneges on a deal. Fund separatists or start a Russia-backed coup and bombs could be raining down on Russia’s precious warships within minutes. Stick to the deal and everything stays nice and peaceful indefinitely. The price is minor, since Russia already had the base in 2014. The change is that there would need to be a formal treaty that obliges Russia to non-interference in Ukrainian affairs and obliges Ukraine to allow supplies through to the Black Sea fleet. This was previously maintained by having a friendly/neutral Ukrainian government, but now terms must be in writing.
I’d love to see it, but that’s just petty vengeance on my part, wanting to see a bully punished.
I don’t know if a humiliated Russia is an ideal solution. The humiliation of Germany after WW I greatly contributed to the rise of Hitler, and we don’t want to see a repeat of that.
An ideal solution IMHO would be regime change, a complete withdrawl to pre-2014 borders, and full blame placed on Putin and his staunchest cronies, allowing the general public and even his supporting public to save face. The story that he lied to and misled the public might alleviate some humiliation at the withdrawal. Something like how WW II was handled should be the model: defeat of the previous regime, strict laws banning the worst behaviors leading to Putin’s dictatorship, curtailing corruption, and strong investment and rebuilding of Russian society by the victors. People tend to forget hurt egos more easily when they’re prosperous.
Whipping the dog that bit you doesn’t make a safer dog.
Edit: PS, it’s easy for me to say this. I have no friends or family raped, tortured or murdered by Russians. I have had no children abducted into re-education camps. If it happened yo me, I’d want a blood bath, a murderous swath cut through Russia to the Kremlin. I understand and sympathize with Ukrainians who want this. I’m just saying that, unless you’re commited to genocide, it’s more likely to come back around in an endless cycle of vengeance.
Speaking of the Marshall Plan, it had considerable push back at the time. It took a Soviet backed coup in Czechoslovakia in 1948 for Americans to realize that leaving Europe starved and in tatters would push Europe into the arms of the Soviets. The Marshall Plan was a relatively cheap way to win battles before they ever occurred.
Russia will not, of course, be the same as post-WW2 Nazi Germany. The victors must be Russians, not outsiders. But Westerners should be willing to give freely, maybe with some basic stipulations around rule of law so Russia doesn’t fall back into being a dictatorial kleptocracy that threatens its neighbors.
Russians being victors meaning Russians overthrowing their oppressor? Because a Russian victory in Ukraine, as unlikely as it would be, would lead only to more aggression and certainly no outside investment (except perhaps from China, which is facing its own problems).
@pingveno Russia does have another port in the mainland, at Novorossiysk. Why did it not decide to use it instead? That is out of my understanding. Perhaps Putin just wanted to make Ukraine vulnerable in the south, or gain a longer shore on the Black Sea. Otherwise, I don’t know.
You’re right, I was wrong. However, Novorossiysk is 200 miles to the east, the equivalent of New York to Washington, DC traveled via water. Sevastopol gives the Black Sea fleet a much stronger presence. Russia would be highly resistant to weakening the Black Sea fleet, to the point of that being a deal breaker for any peace treaty.
Perhaps an option could be that Ukraine gets their land back, but there’s some agreement that Russia can rent out the land around the port at Sevastopol.
Ukraine gets paid for the use of their land (and ultimately they still own it), and Russia gets exclusive access to that part of the port where they can do whatever they need.
Yeah, that’s basically what I’m suggesting, plus security guarantees to avoid a repeat conflict. Before 2014, Russia was renting out the base.
Interesting, I didn’t realize that Russia was already renting out the base pre-2014. Thank you for that context.
It’s probably why Russia invaded Crimea in the first place. Otherwise it’s not all that useful.
It’s actually upsetting to read some people defend an illegal war of aggression in this thread. Just practice the golden rule for a change and imagine yourself being in the same situation. What if it was your country being invaded? Would you take up arms to defend your family, your friends, your neighbors? The bombs are dropping everywhere, and you have to hide in basements to prevent their terror attacks from taking away all that you hold dear.
Of course a country being invaded has the right to defend themselves and the right to fight back. The aggressors could end this war immediately but they wont because their leader is an insular autocrat. Isolating himself and giving orders without considering the best for the rest of the world. Devaluing human life from on top of a pedestal. This is the danger what happens when one single individual gains too much power and the rest of the world needs to be unanimously against it regardless of blind idealism.
Straight up. Israel and Ukraine are under constant attack these days and absolutely not be criticized for defending themselves even if they don’t always go about it exactly the right way.
Are you seriously comparing an apartheid state to a country that’s a victim of an invasion? Is Israel “defending itself” when it slaughters Palestinian children?
Have you ever been there? Do you know what apartheid actually means? Every single Palestinian without citizenship doesn’t have it only because they refused. And furthermore, in 2005 Israel actually forced its own citizens out of the Gaza strip, whole family is dislocated at gunpoint by their own government. And when the Palestinians moved in, the terrorists among them tore down the infrastructure and somehow convinced their brethren that the Israelis were to blame. Israel is not the one who’s incriminately shooting rockets from hospitals and schoolyards. Israel is not the one encouraging citizens to enter houses of worship and go on killing sprees. Israel is not the one who is encouraging and applauding suicide bombers attacking bus stops and pizza shops. Israel is the one who is sending out texts and dropping leaflets warning people to get out of buildings that they suspect their housing military equipment used to attack them before bombing said buildings. It is easily within Israel’s capability set to kill every last Palestinian and I imagine just about any other country put through what Israel’s been put through would be a lot more aggressive. They aren’t always in the right. There are things they have done wrong. But an apartheid state they are not.
Forgot to mention, the terrorists in charge of the Gaza strip also diverted equipment meant to be used for construction and instead chose to use it to dig tunnels to get through to Israel to carry out attacks and kidnappings.
I’m sorry, how do you think YOU would behave if your homeland were colonized? You’d just politely ask the colonizers to leave until they felt bad enough for you to listen? Not everything Palestinians do to fight back is good or justified, but they’re clearly the victims in this scenario.
Half of children in Gaza are suicidal. HALF. 60% self-harm, and 80% are depressed. Are you cool with that? Because that is directly Israel’s doing.
To be clear, Israel is not a unique evil. The US and China are at least as bad. But Israel is not magically exempt from criticism, nor is it remotely comparable to Ukraine.
Israel are not colonizers though. Israel is one of the indigenous people finally returning to their homeland. You can say they should share and I agree but the immediate attempt at their annihilation right when they were established definitely indicated that many of their neighbors were not keen on sharing nicely. It’s awful that the children in Gaza are suffering but the blame for that lies with the terrorists who use those children as human shields, tore down the infrastructure, and diverted construction materials meant for humanitarian aid to be used to enable further terrorist attacks, not the country that forced it’s own citizens out and left a fully functioning set of infrastructure for the new inhabitants.
Edit- I was hoping to get away from Reddit culture of disagree=downvote and was looking forward to productive respectful discussions here. So far it seems not to be working out but maybe we can still turn it around
If white Americans today went back to Europe and forcibly displaced the people living there, they would be colonizers. It doesn’t matter that they can trace their lineage back to that location. The idea that blood links you to land is nonsense.
Jesus Christ, how much Israeli propaganda have you been drinking? I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, but even assuming that’s all true, whose fault is it that people there needed humanitarian aid in the first place? Try reading sources on Palestinians that don’t have a pro-Israel agenda sometime.
My instance disables downvotes, so I can neither downvote you nor see your negative score, but good. I’m glad you’re getting downvoted. That’s exactly what uncritically regurgitated propaganda deserves.
How much Palestinian propaganda have you been reading? Americans weren’t forcibly expelled to begin with and even if they were they haven’t been actively demonstrably yearning and attempting to return ever since so the analogy fails on two counts. A third count as well actually because Americans haven’t had bigotry, prosecution, and murder sprees and mobs and pogroms constantly plaguing them everywhere they’ve been since they left europe.
Regarding the downvotes- good to know although ironically you are the person who would uld be least wrong to downvote me. You’re at least articulating what you disagree with than giving a cowardly anonymous thumbs down like those who have been downvoting.
Downvoted for being off topic and thread derailing.
Fair enough. I appreciate the critique.
illegal war
How would you define a “legal war”?
A war can be considered legal if it meets the criteria and conditions set forth by international law. On the other hand, an “illegal war” typically refers to armed conflicts that do not meet the requirements outlined in international law.
A war can be considered legal if it meets the criteria and conditions set forth by international law.
Practically every war throughout history violates that standard. Are there people out there who are truly this naive?
I would flee from the front line and I recommend everybody else do the same. Why get involved when states fight over their sphere of influence? Ukraine isn’t a state worth giving your life for. US imperial hegemony (a major reason for this conflict) should not be supported. They will abuse any support given to further their own goals and throw you (or anyone) under the bus when convenient.
What’s even more upsetting are the people who can write comments like yours, without irony. Why is it anybody who points out the causes of the conflict, gets decried as a Russian asset? Nobody here has explicitly said what Russia did wasn’t illegal or immoral, because it is. But what people like you don’t understand, is that events like this don’t happen in isolation. These moves are highly interactive and very dangerous. You can’t ignorantly just point to one in a vacuum and say, “‘that’s’ imperialism!”
Were people like you making similar protestations when the west backed the Maidan coup, which overthrew the democratically elected President (Yanukovych) in Ukraine? Were you criticizing the US for encouraging Ukraine to ignore and break its peace treaty that was agreed to with Russia, under the Minsk Accords? Were you criticizing the west for it’s media blackout of the continued shelling and massacring of Russian speaking citizens in eastern Ukraine (i.e. Donbass and Luhansk), while they were crying for Russia’s help? Of course you weren’t. You have no idea what I’m even talking about. Because you for, this conflict began with Russia moving into Ukraine. You only know what the MSM propaganda in the west tells you you’re supposed to believe. I fully understand Putin when he called the US “The Empire of Lies.” And people like you ignorantly fall for the bait. Every single time. Without fail. You’re a successful product of the American ideological and propaganda system. You haven’t seen past the dense fog of propaganda that’s deployed to keep you ignorant. It’s why the hidden is deliberately and intentionally hidden from you and they don’t want you finding out about it.
Why does hating western hypocrisy on the home front make me a Putin shill? Why is politics a ‘team sport’ that I’m betraying, because I call out the warmongering of my own team?
You bring up a lot of things I never typed that aren’t relevant to what I actually typed. It shows how deluded you are. For all the “western propaganda” where is all the evidence you speak of that that Russia invading Ukraine is somehow justified? Truth is not propaganda. Instead of attacking your imaginary fairy-tale “western” beast, try facing the reality that you are actually wrong. Take a mental journey and imagine yourself in the same position of the victims of war, then how wrong it is to somehow try to justify any of it.
… where is all the evidence you speak of that that Russia invading Ukraine is somehow justified?…
Did you even read what I wrote?:
Nobody here has explicitly said what Russia did wasn’t illegal or immoral, because it is.
Apparently not.
Take a mental journey and imagine yourself in the same position of the victims of war, then how wrong it is to somehow try to justify any of it.
I have. Have you? Did Putin not make peaceful overtures to Ukraine? Did he not want to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement? Did Ukraine not ‘agree’ to the Minsk Accords?
Sorry for being offtopic: Is there a section for Ukraine related news? (The Ukraine subreddit is the only thing I truly miss from Reddit.)
There is !ukraine@sopuli.xyz for example.
Bunch of people keep talking about how the US shouldn’t broker peace deals and China should. Hypocrisy at its finest.
The fact is, having a third party nation recommendation for peace or no peace is a standard for centuries, and if that nation is a global hegemony with nuclear weapons, then it makes sense.
Bunch of people keep talking about how the US shouldn’t broker peace deals and China should. Hypocrisy at its finest.
Would you have North Korea brokering deals between Thailand and Laos?
If they actually had any influence instead of being a laughing stock, then it would be the norm, yes. They don’t though, but China could and would be the better example instead of a Red herring. Or Australia (they don’t have nukes, but similar influence and such).
People want the war could end, but US won’t let it. What hypocrisy?
people want the war to end
Russia clearly doesn’t. In fact they were the ones who started it
It was Ukraine that violated the Minsk Accords not Russia
There’s little point in arguing with people who think history began yesterday.
People refuse to hold their own side accountable and recognize what their contribution to the problem is.
The US is one of the least peaceful states in the world, and that’s no easy feat. Plus, they are openly involved in the proxy war, as opposed to China.
I’m not seeing the hypocrisy here.
You’re arguing against a position that’s every bit as dumb and I’ll-informed, as the chick that heads up the NED, attempting to overthrow regimes opposed to the US all over the world. The people replying to you in ignorance aren’t in need of a ‘debate’, but an education.
Imperialism is bad even when it’s not the USA doing it.
Ukraine absolutely deserves our support in this war.
Wait, I thought Ukraine was a sovereign, independent state. That’s what the media been screeching about for over a year. Now it is saying USA is deciding their foreign policy?
Funny that
how is expressing an opinion equate to “deciding their foreign policy”?
edit: other than speaking the obvious, of course
Here are some gentlemen “expressing an opinion”.
Do I understand it correctly, that “total withdrawal” is giving back the regions that agreed to be with Russia, alongside getting the troops back?
You mean that separatist regions that got installed by Russia and would already have lost without the Russian troops intervention in 2014 - 2015? That regions that have a government of brutal former criminals (that brutally oppressed every opposition)? Yes those too. If the people really want to be part of Russia, they can ask for a fair referendum with international observers after Russia fucked off.
They can also just move to Russia if they don’t like living in Ukraine
