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Really makes you think about why Hamas is so radicalized, doesn’t it? It’s not like you can pull a Muslim out of a hat and radicalize them. People in a stable, healthy, and fair socioeconomic position do not see violence as an answer. People who live under constant oppression, inequality, and fear do.
And the irony is that Israel allowed Hamas to be funded by Arabic countries 25 years ago when it was a way to weaken Arafat and the PLO. Everything in this area is fucked beyond parody. No authority on either side has any idea about morality.
Netanyahu actually said something very similar, that the best way to destabilise the Palestinian Authority was to finance Hamas.
The same parallels with how the US funded what would later become Al Qaeda to fuck with the Soviets. Then they did 9/11.
It’s not ironic at all. Arafat and the PLO were TERRORISTS with no interest in peace whatsoever, and who had a stranglehold on all political power.
It’s not like Israel had a non-terrorist faction to work with.
I wish things were that simple.
Uh… UH… UH… How do you think the Oslo accords happened?
People who live under constant oppression, inequality, and fear do.
Having a religion that claims that you’re the greatest people on this planet helps.
edit You guys think that it doesn’t help, or that Abrahamic religions aren’t saying that? Help me understand.
You’re describing roughly half the planet
A remarkably small amount of people on this planet think they should be, no, make that deserve to be living in the area where biblical / quranic time people lived. But yeah, the amount of people who think they’re the greatest people is probably much more than just half.
Even I may have been known to make that mistake every now and other second.
Right, because no nation has ever justified their borders by evoking their ancestral right over land. No other nation has justified genocide because they were a superior race or culture.
No other nation has committed mass murder for any other reason other than religion.
I don’t give a shit personally. Dont fucking murder and kidnap civilians. There isn’t a justification
They arent justifying hamas, they are highlighting how israel actively created the environment that gave hamas the capability to do this.
I don’t think any sane person is justifying the horrors committed by Hamas. But they seem to be somewhat logical consequences to the last 30 (60?) years of fuckery in the area.
Israel has been forced into existence and had to be extra tough to continue to exist when all its neighbours were looking for a quick genocide, Gaza is basically an open sky prison, the whole world is toying with the concepts of religion and nationalism in the area, everybody in the area is getting increasingly radicalised, major powers have been having proxy wars around here, politicians are playing 4D snooker to stay in power by any means necessary… The list goes on and on
More like 100 years. The british began mass immigrating Jews to Israel back in 1923.
“I don’t think any sane person is justifying the horrors committed by Hamas. But”
“But”
Dude, you’re doing it right now.
You might find participating in these conversations more fruitful if you took time to understand the difference between justification and understanding. I can say that I understand how someone might get enraged and do crazy shit and still condemn the act.
Wow! Amazing, you got me! I totally conflated historical perspective and ethical viewpoint, I am owned.
I don’t know many countries that aren’t proud of a revolutionary war they had in the past. I don’t like the bloodbaths caused by the French Revolution, the American revolutionary war, English civil war, Garibaldi, Zapata. I could go and on. Yet, we manage to rationalise them and to put them into perspective, explaining that the population arrived at a point where they couldn’t tolerate oppression anymore. It explains the violence, it doesn’t justify it morally.
Say that to Israel. The average age of the population in Gaza is 18. Unless there was a population boom of unprecedented proportions 18 years ago. (There wasn’t) Something seriously wrong is going on.
I don’t support Hamas’s attack. But Israel isn’t the victim. The people of Palestine and even Israel are the victims. And ultimately, the government of Israel is the aggressor. They could stop this. But they don’t. They just make excuses and dehumanize the Palestinians. Then act surprised when they get the response they want.
The average age of the population in Gaza is 18.
Of note: The blockade of Gaza is going on for a good 16 years, now. About half of Gazans grew up under that regime and they’re just about reaching fighting age now, already having gone through “what might I possibly be in the future” age and, well, there’s not exactly many options are there.
Exactly. Regardless of who started this. At some point someone’s going to have to be the bigger person. And unfortunately that can literally only be israel. And they are absolutely refusing. No matter how good or bad people in guys that are Palestinians in general behave. They are just counted phones to Israel and many other Middle Eastern powers.
For both, they fucking deserve each other
No. They really don’t. It’s pretty fucked up what Hamas just did. But it didn’t come from a vacuum. Those people and their families have lived there for centuries. Before a bunch of Western powers came in occupied, and then decided to kick them out of their own territories. Off their own lands. Give it to people who hadn’t been there in living memory at the very best. Violence begets violence and it’s been that way ever since the start of this situation. Unfortunately however. Israel is going to have to be the bigger person here. Because they’re not the ones trapped in a blockade of Israel’s design with the help of other Middle Eastern Nations.
Are you talking about Israel or Hamas? Because they’ve both killed a lot of civilians. Israel has actually killed more.
Source BBC News on the hostage situation “The focus appears to be on a swap involving women and children - including Israelis and other nationals - in an exchange for Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails.”
Even if that was the intention, there’s witness accounts of people being raped and tortured before being murdered. We have videos of women with bloodied crotches being paraded. There’s a video of men sitting and spitting on a dead woman’s body. Nothing justifies that
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Thank you for stating the obvious.
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This is the second thread I’ve seen today with your awful takes. Probably worth a block, but I don’t believe in it. Just know that you’re super fucking wrong.
I get it but overall with this situation I don’t get why its crazy to say fuck both of these groups and targeting civilian’s is never acceptable
Because one side uses civilians as meat shields like cowards and the other side doesn’t.
Also, about half of Israel’s jewish citizens = secular people who want peace
It seems to be the ultra-religious on both sides that are constantly making things worse.
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You can’t understand not wanting to leave but instead voting via democratic process only to be dissatisfied/alarmed that more authoritarian, right wing demagogues are pushing the Overton Window right and eroding democracy?
Do you live on Mars? This is happening everywhere.
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but if half of them want peace and are secular, why don’t they just leave and go live somewhere else?
To quote some “very fine people” from a major western nation. “Jews will not replace us”.
Lots of places aren’t exactly welcoming to them.
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Why should the Palestinians pay for German crimes with their blood?
I think this comment is pretty unfair. You’re right that there’s a historical demonization of Jews that continues to this day, but i don’t think it makes sense to suggest that the only solution is for all the Jews to hide out in Israel (or some other Jewish nation/state).
That said i don’t think it makes sense to say they have to leave for that reason either, or that it’s the smart thing to do or whatever. Why not stay? If only there were more secular Jews in Israel who opposed apartheid.
What makes the problem hard is that there are a lot of dickheads on both sides, not just the governments. You can be an oppressed victim AND a dick. These things are not mutually exclusive, unfortunately.
Plus Israel’s dickery gets blind support from America. I’d guess if the Americans demanded actual concessions from Israel this would no longer be a problem, they’d have two states already. As it is, they have every economic and political incentive to just squeeze the Palestinians harder.
You mean the American government surely. Americans can’t even get our government to do shit for Americans lmao
Isreali citizens = also victims, although much less abused and arguably somewhat complicit if they immigrated.
This part always makes me feel ambivalent about the Israelites in the conflict. Israeli citizens are complicit victims, and that’s a contradiction but it’s also true. Civilians are getting hurt and dying and that’s not okay. However those same Israeli citizens are also supporting a basically genocidal government. Thousands of guidanceless rockets were fired at Isreal, are they expected not to respond? Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been victimized for their entire lives, are they expected not to respond?
If you’re just born in Tel Aviv or Gaza City, I don’t think you should be blamed for these military things. Maybe you support Hamas or Otzma Yehudit, but you’re kind of a product of your environment, and if tangential support is all you do you’re still a bystander. Maybe not a great example of humanity, but a bystander none the less.
I would have to be pretty truly desperate to consider aliyah myself, even before there was a war. I guess I could do it, and then support forces in Israel for peace, but I’m not sure if I’d make any difference, and they’re going to be reluctant to let in my never-practiced ass even without me being openly hostile to the whole project.
It’s been 17 years since the last election. Assuming only 18 and up could vote, that means only people current around 34 and up could vote. So the bulk of Palestinians didn’t even have a chance to vote in that election. Not to mention that they were given the choice between a corrupt faction (Fatah) and a possible less corrupt faction (Hamas).
I am so afraid this message is getting lost. There has been a deliberate push to paint this latest incident to be the reason that neighborhoods had to be flattened and civilians slaughtered.
why can’t they hold elections?
Conveniently, the Palestinian government is denying all citizens the right to vote because those who live in Jerusalem would not be included. It helps Hamas keep power while pinning blame elsewhere.
They scheduled one for last year to get on Biden’s good side, but that never happened.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/1/27/palestinian-elections-democracy-for-no-one
They can. They won’t.
Either they’re just undemocratic, or they know that the results of elections wouldn’t be what they want them to be.
Hamas is denying the people the right to vote. You stand corrected.
That’s being undemocratic. I stand uncorrected!
Because Abbas is a lying, snivelling turd who pretends to care about his people.
Presumably because they are busy planning funerals for their children
By not revolting against Hamas, they are actively supporting them.
You’re either with our against the terrorists. There’s no in-between.
By not actively revolting all of America was responsible for Abu Ghraib?
You do know what a false dichotomy is, right?
Hamas sucks, I wish they were never allowed to assume any power. But if Hamas doesn’t control the water, electricity, food, currency, internet, or borders in Gaza; who should the Palestinians revolt against?
That’s actuslly an interesting point, and I do appreciate you bringing it up.
My take is that they, the Palestinians in Gaza, should do whatever in their power to break down Hamas from inside, and show that they are strongly against these terrorists.
They should not revolt against Hamas as their leaders, since you showed they are not (even though I’m under the belief that they are, de facto), but they should revolt against Hamas residing inside of Gaza, and using the territory as a base for their terrorist operations.
So you believe Hamas is the only problem here and once they are killed off the violence will stop and relations can be normalized?
Which terrorists? The Israeli ones or the Palestinian ones?
Here here. At least somebody has some fucking balls. Perhaps because it’s not a mess they created.
Hear, hear, not here, here.
Quite write, my mistake.
…my mistake.
I think you meant “missed steak.”
Go Spain.
Haven’t surveys shown that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas?
Sure but you try being killed and kicked out of your homes. I’m sure you would not like the people who are doing it either. Israel has created this mess.
People forget Israel is the one with the power and creating this issue. If Israel actually backs off and treats Palestine as at least human, then I think (and hope) most people will see that Hamas needs to be destroyed as they are a terrorist group.
Isn’t that exactly what Israel did when they left the Gaza strip in 2005? That’s the thing that lead to Hamas taking over in the first place.
Didn’t that process of backing off continue until 2007, when the terrorist group Hamas took over and restarted the terror campaigns?
Hamas kills anyone who doesn’t bow to them, including Palestinians.
I mean if you live in a country controlled by a terrorist group that kills anyone who is not their side, and someone goes to your door and asks if you support them… What would you say?
It’s easy to dismiss this issue by thinking they have the same freedom of speech as we do in the west, and they can have political opinions without any repercussion.
Same can be said about north Korea.
I think elections showed Vladimir Putin won with >90% of the vote.
Kim Jong Un also seems to enjoy the support of his people.
Hamas is the only group in this world standing up for the Palestinian people, so I would support them too, we’re I locked up in that open air prison, my family and friends being constantly murdered for profit.
Beheading 40 babies to stand up for their people 😎
Is Spain offering asylum to Palestinians? Because that’s the only thing that will help those people.
They have to be able to leave Gaza in order to receive asylum.
Gaza is pretty much an open air prison that you can’t really leave all that easily.
The mass downvoting on comments on this thread shows that the Islamophobes are brigading.
There is literally nothing to disagree with, other than if you object to Muslim/Palestinian people existing.
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They did.
Some of them were wearing IDF uniforms :|
We sure confused the Nazi Party with all Germans back in 1940s though. How many Palestinian uprising or public demonstrations against Hamas has there been in the last 50 years? In anywhere?
Palestinian refugees in Europe were reported as being ecstatic about the massacres, with only worry being that Israel might strike back.
Palestine is done. The best future for them would be to leave the area, as this Tildes comment sagely suggests: https://tildes.net/~news/1b5i/israel_gaza_conflict_discussion_thread#comment-auq4
Hamas came in power in 2006(17 years ago).
Good point. And it was founded in 1985. So perhaps last 30 years.
It was funded by Netanyahu and the Mossad against left secular PLO on purpose - this is indeed like a 911 situation as he says; it’s literally blowback and furthermore likely intentionally allowed to happen given what we’ve heard from the Egyptians about prior warning to Israel which they ignored (Israel confirmed that they received this intelligence).
We must demise EU. Go back to our sovereignty. This institution is not serving us. UA war has exacerbated racism, now this wildcard given to the zionist entity is even more disgusting.
Yes we can. These people are fighting over religion. Fucking religion.
If you’re religious, you’re part of the problem. All sides suck.
Spoken like someone who has never faced a day of adversity in their entire life.
spoken like someone who has never had religious nutjobs take over their government.
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Actually the big forces carving out lands for them completely irresponsibly like they’re all the same has doomed them to be in a state of war for as long as they exist.
Religion exacarbates the problem and creates extremism but violence would very well exist without it.
Oh but we can. Oh but we will.
The last bit of sympathy the west had for Muslims vanished after 9/11. The US helped them out as much as it benefited them in Afghanistan against the Russians, and we had a last hurrah for Kosovo when they were being massacred by the Serbs.
But that’s gone now. You’ve gone from slightly insular neighbours, to terrifying beardy men with hooks for hands who hate our way of life. That’s Bin Laden’s legacy.
Western support for Israel is far from unanimous, but our indifference to Palestine is. Israel could bomb Gaza to dust and bulldoze it into the sea, and at this point the most you’ll hear from us is a stern “steady on lads”.
I don’t know who exactly the “we” and “you” are referring to in your comment. But the Irish have been long been supporters of the Palestinian people no doubt due to their experience during the Troubles. I’d say the British people (not necessarily the government) support Palestine too. My brother has been to a number of pro-Palestine marches in the UK before this latest escalation of violence.
Speak for yourself.
