I think we should build them ourselves.
I dont think there is a single privacy friendly EV on the market.
If a Canadian company could build and export an EV that wasn’t loaded with invasive sensors and where the data recording and uploading was opt-in (or non existent), loads of US Americans and Europeans would import them from Canada.
Why can’t you guys make your own? Its not hard. Musk figured it out.
Canada has the same incentive to not open the door to Chinese EVs that the US does.
Why would they shoot themselves in the face just to splash some blood on someone else?
Canada doesn’t have the incentives that the Americans have at all. Correct me if I’m wrong. America’s incentive is to protect its own EV industry, Canada doesn’t have an EV industry of its own.
What is the reason btw? Genuinely asking because I dunno
It isn’t that an inexpensive electric vehicle from China is bad, in fact that’s great.
The issue is that the cars are subsidized at such a rate that it goes beyond domestic incentive and into “we’ll just make sure no matter what we can sell for less than the competition” in an effort to drive any competition out of business.
It’s an anticompetitive practice that has significant impacts if allowed unchecked.
This is not meant as a value statement about the west, USA or Canada … as in I’m not saying “China bad when they do it, west good when they do it” because it’s bad when it’s done by whoever does it.
Effectively it’s a lever to weaponize fair trade and that’s antithetical to the idea of fair trade, at least insomuch as the international community tends to agree.
Why does that matter to Canada? They don’t make their own EVs. They have no domestic manufacturers to protect against dumping. Might as well just get as many cheap vehicles as you can, while you can.
Tesla stands no chance to compete with Chinese vehicles. It’s wild how high quality and cheap these Chinese cars are.
Chinese EVs are very dangerous because of low quality standards. There are plenty of videos with batteries catching fire and the EVs burning up in the middle of the road.
I have a better alternative: invest in viable alternatives to driving! expand protected bike lanes, build the damn high speed rail, more trains, trams and bus lines. One more asphalt lane for cars wont solve traffic problems :)
Walkable cities. Biking infrastructure. Reliable public transit.
Regularless of of what’d going on in the world right now, these would make our cities far better.
Bang on!
As someone who loves driving cars, I’m completely on board with this. Driving should be optional, and I’d love to leave the car home when I go out partying, or don’t want to worry about leaving my nice ride somewhere sketchy overnight.
This is the way
That would work for much of the population that lives within 100 miles of the US border, but there is a lot of rural and green space in Canada, and bikes aren’t great in Canadian winters. Canada needs good car options too.
In cities at least, bikes are just as good as cars in winter. Your city just needs to put as much effort in to building and clearing bike lanes as it does car lanes. Places that give a shit actually plow and salt their bike paths and bike lanes.
As of the 2021 census, nearly 6 million people (16% of the total Canadian population) lived in rural areas of Canada.
84% of Canadians live in cities, and that’s where good urban infrastructure is the most needed.
Making car-centric infrastructure mostly electric will help a bit, but not a whole lot.And spending that money to get us cheaper transit in the long term will probably also free up more resources to help the remaining 16%.
Oh, I agree that mass transit wouldn’t really work in areas that aren’t as dense, but we should definitely have those where possible. I didn’t mean to say we don’t need good car options, but we should also have more options besides just cars
Now regarding bikes and winter, I’d say that’s more of an infrastructure problem. Finland also has terrible winter, yet they can bike as usual. You should watch this video if you are interested in this theme: “Why Canadians Can’t Bike in the Winter (but Finnish people can)”
I understand that infrastructure is more important to be able to cycle in the winter, even eclipsing temperature in very cold areas. I live in an area where there is no bicycle infrastructure, I’m actually 100x safer riding my motorcycle well below freezing on the road, than riding my bicycle on a beautiful fall day. And I do, I have gear for it .There are cities though, where temperatures don’t regularly get super cold and people don’t actually have the clothing and gear to cycle in the winter. I would guess in those areas, temperature is more of a factor. In areas where winters are consistently very cold, people already have what they need and are able to cycle if the infrastructure is there.
Lol goodbye tesla if that happens
China isn’t our friend. The whole ‘make it more financially appealing for the world to not war’ is not working. China isn’t influencing the world to be decent and at peace. They’re Putin’s allies and therefore our enemies.
China can buy our housing to rent it back to us, but we can’t buy their EV because other companies won’t make as much profit. Great trickle down.
Yeah China feeling more emboldened to invade Taiwan and talking about wanting to send in troops to gain experience in Ukraine shows they are looking to fill in the power vacuum left by the US and become US 2.0.
More like Russia. 2.0
The old American playbook was to ally with some local elites and then use media, secret service and economic support to bring them into power. Military force and hardcore sanctions were a tool used, if that did not work.
Russia prefers to use military force to force other countries into doing what they want.
China seems to work mainly with economic pressure, corruption and secret servcie work to set up favroable local elites. Their media game is not as good as the US, but TikTok is a clear sign that they are working on it. So far hard force is pretty rarer.
To me China looks a lot more like the old US playbook. They know the Russian one is not as good, as they saw European Empires collapse by using it.
Russia does not prefer military force. They do just as much meddling as the USA does and one might even say they do it better.
No, absolutely not like Russia 2.0 The Chinese are taking a completely different approach to the Russians. The fact that people still think the Chinese are stupid is unbelievable…
Tell me more (genuinely)
Without China, Russia would no longer be able to act. The economy etc. would have collapsed completely long ago without China. China therefore has control over Russia and not vice versa. (Even North Korea now has more to say than Putin…) So China is tackling the global battle via cyberwar and economic warfare. It is also a way to overthrow other countries without war and the West is dependent on China. China is not sending its country back a century, but into the future. They are not rushing into a senseless and stupid war, but are waiting until the stupid Russians burn through the capacities worldwide with the Ukraine war. They are also waiting until America splinters completely and possibly takes Europe with it. It is absolutely not comparable with the brainless MeatGrindr bullshit from the Russians.
I’m not saying that China won’t start a war, but they won’t do it as stupidly as the Russians. China is thinking several years ahead. Just future-oriented.
So apart from nuclear weapons, China is much more dangerous for the West
The thing is, if Trump wants to kill Canada’s role in US car manufacturing, then it will cost him the car markets in Mexico and Canada. If there’s no jobs here to protect, then we’ll just drop the tariffs on Chinese EVs. (This is speaking like 20 years down the road). We’ll all be driving Chinese cars in that scenario. The tariffs are a total lose-lose situation, so dumb.
Replacing nazi cars with slave labor cars is a pretty fucked up idea.
Pretty much anything that you’ve ever owned has been made from the exploitation of some working class somewhere. The clothes you wear. The house you live in. The electronics that you use. The furniture that you own. The very food you eat and drink is often cheap because of an exploited worker somewhere that’s paid pennies on the dollar. Your going to draw the line at a drastically cheaper car that’s leaps and bounds better for the environment than a petrol vehicle? Okay.
To be fair, as someone said, it’s not EV that will save the environment. They bring their own problems such as rare earth minerals, heavy metals, lithium fires, heavier cars = move road degradation because of weight, more PM2,5 because of the weight on caoutchouc tires, the difficulty to replace parts when broken because of the more locked design and less right to repair friendly and more.
Are they good for the environment? More than a combustion car, probably. Are they the silver bullet solution? Absolutely not. We are in Canada and we have industries, local, that could benefit from investing into public transportation and trains. That’s true Canadian investment to our companies and solutions to the current environmental crisis.
Yes.
EVs are definitely better for the environment than ICE powered cads. But they won’t singlehandedly solve climate change, let alone all the harms when places prioritize single occupancy passenger cars at the expense of public transit.
And sure, I’m drawing a line here because cars are one of the precious few industries where you can still buy union-made.
Where do you draw that line?
Smell that? That’s the smell of virtue signaling. Just buy shit and drop the hypocrisy. At least the other guys is being honest.
“I buy from companies who most closely match my ethics” is virtue signaling, now?
We live in a capitalist society, and voting with our wallet is the only vote we get. Not everyone can afford to vote, but why wouldn’t you if you could?
If this is virtue signaling, it’s the most subtle milquetoast virtue signaling ever.
“I buy from companies who most closely match my ethics” is virtue signaling, now?"
That’s well said. And good on you for sticking to your guns. You are 100% right. I think if you can afford to avoid these companies you should.
Cars factories are heavily automated. Manual labor is barely a factor in their cost. China gives state subsidies for EVs and has a far stronger local supply chain.
$15k EV… Yes Please!!!
Nah you wouldn’t want one, they’re bare bones.
Okay, add $5k worth of options = $20k EV… Yes Please!!!
I have driven byd and some other Chinese brands and it’s a really great experience minus the shitty touch screen UX. That being said I wouldn’t trust China to run my car ever. Everything is locked down and it absolutely spies on you. I wouldn’t trust my life with that to save a bit of money.
Just buying a 2nd hand ice vehicle is better for you and the environment if you’re looking for a affordable option.
I’d be way more concerned about whether it’s a deathtrap than whether or not the touchscreen has good UX, lol.
Those are not mutually exclusive. The ux is incredibly dangerous especially here in sunny and wet south east asia where China is exporting a lot of cars now. Many accidents are making the news where the driver didn’t see something cause they’re fucking with the stupid controls instead of driving.
We don’t allow smart phone use while driving but somehow giant tablet in the middle of the car is ok.
I have this problem in my gas-burning Mazda because of the horrible touch screen that won’t work half the time and has options buried in it.
I cannot believe there haven’t been lawsuits to stop this BS yet
As much as I hate Elon, this is a terrible idea. Cheap Chinese trash mobiles built by Uyghur slave labor are not the answer.
How about we build cars in Canada instead?
Except they aren’t trash, they’re better than Teslas that’s for sure.
Except they aren’t trash, they’re better than Teslas that’s for sure.
It’s possible to be trash and also better than Tesla…
That’s a low fucking bar lol
They are still data hungry, surveillance machines that are allways online and gps tracked. We need cars without that kinda shit built in.
There has been talks about forcing Chinese cars to come over disconnected. Every new car is a surveillance machine. The western brands will not be asked to disconnect anything and it will probably be illegal to do so yourself, so Chinese cars might be an actual win in that regard.
American car company secretly send your driving data to your insurance company so they can squeeze more out from you for any minor reason they see fit. There’s no reason canada insurance company won’t do that. Scared about chinese car collecting your data is kinda missed the point, you should have stronger data protection instead.
I’de rather China have my data than an company over here. What are they gunna do with it that would affect me?
that’s exactly what got us in this mess in the first place.
What mess? American Imperialism / Capitalism imploding on itself?
A foreign power having far, far too much control over our economic possessions. Information is a resource; what they do with it is inconsequential, we have to stop giving it away to people simply because they’re our ‘trade partners’ right now.
So a direct consequence of Usamerican capitalism/Imperialism, got it.
Correlation attacks, China is king of hoovering up data.
Overly dramatic example: you are in the armed forces, you have a TikTok account, you post a bunch of shit that shows you are in the armed forces. You get deployed for some covert fuckabout and are told to leave your phone at home. You turn off your phone, pick up 3 of your buddies in your Chinese EV and drive to the base/airport/sea port. Dozens of people do this and by seeing the pattern China knows that a bunch of armed forces are being told to quietly deploy.
A less dramatic example might be figuring out where politicians are by knowing where their employees are.
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
We have roughly three million ways to say “US bad” right now, and you pick a less than true one.
US government data collection is not on the scale of China. The US is limited in what it gets from companies. China is absolutely not.
Yes, the US should absolutely have more data protection laws. The EU is better. China is absolutely not.
False
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
The US can’t even unlock an iPhone without calling in 3rd parties. EVERY Chinese made device collects data, and every Chinese business gives full access to the Chinese government. The US government does collect data but it’s no where near the scale of the Chinese.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
He unlocked a device made by a company he owns, running software they designed on a network they operate. All that shows is that Tesla’s vehicles are not properly secured and remote access can be abused by Tesla employees.
Why would I give a shit about China knowing about where murderers are?
Hello, ml.
My toenail clippings are better than Teslas.
That’s what my friend in NZ told me too, they’re really good, better or the same as Tesla.
Build cars in Germany, Japan, South Korea and the like. focus on something non car you can sell to them in return. You can do anything but not everything.
Building cars is something we already do in Canada. And there’s currently a lot of capacity coming online to build electric cars. Pretty much the entire car could be sourced from Canadian parts, including the batteries. I think semi-conductors are the only thing that doesn’t have a domestic source right now.
Sedans please.
But we were fine with the usa destroying multiple countries, participating in many coups and supporting Israel for decades.
At least keep the tracking and voice-recording (for Ai) in-country. I don’t see that in a provable fashion in the cheap asian cars.
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
Do you have any substantial sources, to objectively prove your claims? I’ve never seen anything convincing.
I’m not intending to simp for China. They are authoritarian. But I’m also not going to fall for propaganda especially if it’s false. The USA has a motive for making the masses hate China.
There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China’s Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.
While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn’t affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.
If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it’s logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.
Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region, while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians. That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians.
I wasn’t aware it was a competition? Human rights violations should be criticized no matter who’s doing it.
That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
Again… I’m not the American government. I am very critical of the US governments involvement with many genocides throughout history. I am also very critical of any government who participates in similar human rights violations, because I’m not a massive hypocrite.
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
Hard proof of all of that has never been produced. Contrary facts exist for all your points.
What do you consider hard proof?
As I said, most of the information used has been verified by independent reporters or human rights organizations.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
What else could you possibly want?
secret papers can’t be hard proof. Neither is a photo of what may be a prison. There are extremely weak documentaries trying to hype up “re-education”, but the US pledge of allegiance would be equivalent indoctrination.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
at the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video. Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points. Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Oh boy, genocide denial.
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The majority of UN countries are on their side, Muslim majority countries included.
And claiming “U.N. body rejects debate on China’s treatment of Uyghur Muslims in blow to West” means a majority of countries on their side is just dishonest. China has a massive economy and is able to put political pressure on plenty of nations in the UN.
This would be like saying America has never pressured another nation into voting for something in the UN.
I think even the countries that abstained are on their side.
They’re obviously being pressured to be on that side but all of the UNSC veto holders do that. The veto power shouldn’t exist because this is what happens. Veto holders are allowed to bully whoever they want with no meaningful consequences.
even the countries that abstained are on their side.
What do you mean by on their side? Are you saying they don’t believe human rights violations happened, are you saying they are just politically aligned with China, or that worried about political backlash from China?
They’re not willing to stand up to an obvious bully and push for further investigation. Closer to your second and third statements than the first. With the third being the most likely.
I do understand how my first comment could be misunderstood now though.
linking wikipedia is providing an enormous list of sources and summaries
at this point, the uighur issue is the bullshit asymmetry principal: it’s been proven time and time again and anyone asking for “sources” isn’t arguing in good faith: they’re relying on the fact that asking for sources takes thousands of times less energy than countering
so that’s what you get: a massive list of pre-prepared sources
*edit: and if you’d have actually read the article you posted, the UNHRC didn’t vote against the motion because they thought there was nothing to investigate: they voted against it to “avoid alienating china”
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What they were doing was textbook sealioning. This information is right there for anyone to find and has been for years.
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If China is authoritarian and censors all information that makes China look bad, and spreads propaganda to other countries that those Governments are spreading propaganda to make China look bad and China isn’t actually bad, does it matter what is motivating the US to say “China Bad” when they objectively are?
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
This is denial, plain and simple.
It is not everyone else’s job to provide this ignoramus sources on the facts of the matter when we are all communicating on the internet where those facts can be found. Especially when no source can possibly be good enough when “they haven’t seen anything convincing yet” even though everyone but China and their allies are saying the same damn thing, including people who have fled China, and they are only referencing US sources.
Let’s use some simple logic here, bub.
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I don’t think that being uninformed is denying genocide and I think it’s antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any of us to treat it as if it is.
I don’t think deleting the parent comment so context is lost is good practice. I think it is antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any one who wants to keep up with the conversation.
But you did it anyways. Like how OP explicitly denied a genocide is happening.
Both things happened, and that’s a fact.
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Why would organisations who aren’t scared to criticise the west and have a really good track record like anmety intl and HRW make the suffering of the Uyghur people up?
It’s really fucking hard for me to understand why many people have so much trouble accepting both China/Russia and the West are heavily unethical. There’s no magic place that does everything ethically, and I don’t know why we’re refusing to acknowledge the cultural genocide of a large population, leading to extreme suffering for hunderds of thousands, because it criticises one country. It doesn’t matter who did it, it absolutely is awful, and we shouldn’t be denying it. Denying it only compounds the extreme suffering the population faces.
It’s so weird to me that people who defend China’s treatment of Uyghurs turn it into a US vs China thing. You can look through my recent history and find me saying that Biden, Harris, and everyone in Congress who clapped for Netanyahu have committed genocide and can rot in hell. Trump, of course, is even worse. This isn’t a “muh both sides bad enlightened centrism” thing because this isn’t a “sides” issue to begin with. Three of the four major superpowers on Earth right now are authoritarian hellholes, and the EU is on its way to joining them with its shift toward neo-Nazism.
Oh I think you registered on the wrong instance
Hexbear is what you’re looking for, this way most of us won’t see your comments.
Yes. It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region. The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS. The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region.
America said the same thing when they forced assimilation on the native population after stealing their land.
The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS.
Again, your only defense to actual evidence is just logical fallacy. You aren’t making any argument in good faith.
The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
I actually admire a lot about the Chinese government, they’ve done wonders in recent decades to undue nearly a hundred years of foreign interference and imperialism. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to be critical of the things I don’t like about the government.
The simple fact is that they have a fairly well documented history of oppressing non-Han minorities in the country.
I hope EVs don’t get a bad name out of all this. EVs are one of the few good things to come out of the last decade or so.
i would find amusing if countries retaliate US tariffs by singling out Musk and Trump companies
I think this is the sanest thing that has been said in the last couple of hours. I’m still recovering from the trump speech from yesterday, so not totally sure.
I also am reeling from that speech. I suspect I may have lost some brain cells in that.
Bernie Sanders had a pretty reasonable take on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlrQKv1vN_4
That website is satire if I remember correctly.
Yes it is. It’s a Canadian satire site.
Absolute gold
“I’m sure Americans can sleep soundly knowing that their entire economic future is being steered by the guy who bankrupted four separate casinos.”
