- cross-posted to:
- parenting@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- parenting@lemmy.world
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Seriously, last ECCC someone tried to bring their kids in to the late-night ‘how to photograph models in latex’ panel. I just can’t imagine what it must be like to be a person who not only thinks that’s a fine idea (it was even listed as 18+ only) but thinks it’s such a fine idea they should spend a solid five minutes angrily arguing with a volunteer about it.
(good panel though!)
Weird, generally latex prevents children from getting in
They went to the panel to learn how to use it properly
That’s why they put child suffocation warnings on it
I think the US in particular is way too uptight about nudity around children. But I still think it’s wrong to bring your kids to events especially advertised as being adult-only.
Make a rule at the conventioans and prevent them from entering …?
Even at the bigger cons which have enough staff to police it, it’s a damned difficult thing to do. You can’t card everyone at the door, panel rooms have to be turned over as quickly as possible (and you can’t force that kind of liability onto your volunteers), people are in costume or just look really young, and that’s even ignoring the seemingly infinite technical issues that every convention is plagued with, etc. etc.
Not saying you’re wrong, it’s just not as simple as “telling them they can’t”. The kind of people that would bring their kid to a hazbin panel aren’t the kind of people that will give a shit about the inconvenient convention rules in the first place.
Which brings me to my suggested solution: Make a rule about it and give every volunteer a cattle prod.
There is a large gap between needing to card someone because the might be younger than 18, and someone bringing little kids. With the little kids you can point to the 18+ sign and just refuse entry.
Also we should stop acting so prudent about sex in regards to teenagers.
If the attendees are not expecting to be involved in a sexual activity and a teenager is old enough to experience sexuality, acts mature, otherwise walk around without supervision and makes their own choices to visit such panel. What harm is their really?
With actual kids there is no doubt, they stick out where they don’t belong.
I would draw the line, i would look at wether or not there is doubt, and give benefit of the doubt to whoever acts mature.
If the panel members are uncomfortable, it’s their choice.
They aren’t consenting to conducting adult discussion with kids around.
Not sure if age of consent argument
If you want to put it that way:
I made a very hard line when the public may become part of the act. But at that point everyone should be ID’d and over the legal age.
I am sort of saying lower the age to give consent to watch/observe public events that include sex elements, like a panel for an adult show. (Its not like teens don’t know how to use the internet, they probable have watched hazbin hotel if they are at the panel)
Actual kids, who should not be unsupervised on the internet are completely out the scope. You cannot give consent for something you don’t fully understand.
If you want to talk age of consent to fuck i am more in favor of a sliding window of acceptable within their age group. Not because they should have sex but because we should respect that teens do experience sexuality and the desire to experiment with that.
I am trying to grasp why minors having sex with other minors is deemed okay. They both cannot consent. Would this not be equal to two drunk people having sex?
This is beyond the scope of the original context but the fundamental question here would be at what point can people provide consent? Currently this depends on a legal per country basis. What constitutes “a minor” is not the same everywhere.
The psychological argument would be whether or not a person is mature enough to fully understand their actions and potential consequences and this is not the same for everyone. People develop maturity - or aspects of maturity at their own pace and at some point will demand or experiment with autonomy and freedom to make their own choices. To deny that reality and instead use oppression/lack of sex education is counterproductive and leads to more dangerous scenarios.
Wait, you think they care if the teenagers get in? We’re talking about the elementary school kids.
Eeh, more complicated than that. Enforcing age restrictions is an obnoxiously complex issue, even though by all reasonable measures it shouldn’t be.
The #1 priority of a con is protecting its panelists & volunteers, and while keeping the panelists comfortable is a critical aspect, enforcement of the conditions they need for adult panels can be a logistical nightmare. It’s why so many cons are moving away from having any adult oriented panels at all, and it’s really sad to see that the most reasonable solution is to just not have them.
Yeah, at the end of the day though you have to set realistic expectations and if you can’t round up the staff with that then you can’t have it. Trying to card check everyone coming into the room would just take too long.
You can card everyone. You’re already carding their ticket.
Just state at purchase you must be X to enter.
And at the door.
Then when people enter: “ID and ticket please!”
Most conventions aren’t doing a ticket check at each panel.
So? Then do it at the entrance
So you want the entire convention to be 18 plus?
No.
I’m getting the feeling there’s a bit of dunning-kruger going on here, and that it was unfair of me to be quite so glib about this in my initial comment. A short overview of why it’s Not That Simple:
There’s the huge issue of both ‘volunteer personal liability’ and ‘convention liability for enforcement.’ You can’t have your volunteers handling 250-500-1000 people’s IDs (one hazbin panel was in a 2000 seat room and still overflowed whoops), and the con really doesn’t want to take on the liability that would come with enforcing ID checks. It’s why cons with beer gardens have outside (usually facility-provided) staff to manage them, they don’t just use their own crew, you actually need training to deal with that. And then, if the con is enforcing age requirements they open themselves up to be sued for failing to enforce it (and causing ‘emotional distress’ to a panel viewer that was uncomfortable, this is a real example I had to deal with, it was even more stupid than it sounds) or lawsuits for unfair discrimination when someone who looks 14, but is in fact 20, is denied entry by a frazzled and overworked volunteer.
And then logistically: you don’t want your volunteers fielding all the complaints at the door, people won’t be able to get in or you’ll run out of volunteers. This isn’t a concert venue or a club, these things are huge and are the most complex crowd management scenarios that exist after Disney World. There’s no expansion of a line like you get with security checks outside of panel rooms because convention centers are designed to make movement of people from spaces as efficient as possible. Introducing artificial bottlenecks into spaces like that will not only impede foot traffic and violate fire codes, it can be actively dangerous. Introducing excessive foot traffic for avenues not designed to handle peak loads like that sets up a perfect crush situation, and it absolutely has to be discussed with the venue beforehand to see if it’s even legal.
These aren’t insurmountable problems, but they are large problems that come on top of a million other ones. A convention’s resources are much better spent managing problems, not creating new (and potentially very severe) ones for themselves.
Lol what the fuck this is the most “well actually” I’ve ever seen.
Consent trumps all. If the performers are uncomfortable, it doesn’t matter how challenging the customer dynamic is.
If you hold an event, get the proper staff to keep your entertainers supported. Or don’t do it.
Concerts ID people all the time. The staff are available. Don’t act like this is some yet unheard-of Herculean task.
Just a guess here:
You really don’t know anything about this topic and you’re responding both defensively and very insultingly because you treat a response that is even mildly critical as personal attack, as the realization that you don’t really understand the topic at hand causes you to cement your prior position (since we as a species don’t easily admit fault) and because casting yourself as fundamentally superior to the person you disagree with not only helps with the aforesaid cementing but also allows you to assuage the feeling of insecurity that comes with the also aforesaid realization of fault by giving yourself a sense of reassuringly fundamental supremacy over those who might cause you to suffer the mental anguish of self-reflection?
That’s the only way I can figure out how you’d feel justified in making a comment that is both rude and plainly shows you misunderstood what you’re responding to. Lmfao, I agree with you. I even say that in the comment you’re replying to. Calm down.
Let’s be clear, opening with a dunning Kruger callout is rude. No one is an expert here, everyone is anonymous. It’s 100% unidan/jackdaw energy.
Further, I didn’t read your wall of text because nothing other than consent matters. If the performers are uncomfortable, I don’t care if they need the fuckin national guard to facilitate ID checks. I care nothing about the hurdles involved.
The whole schtick here is le redditor and I’ll stick with the simple “consent established, or leave”.
… I’m sorry, you’re attacking my argument based on what you think I might have said? And you’re continuing to belittle me/my attempt to actually engage with you on the topic at hand because…?
“Hazbin”, not “Habbo”
Habbo wouldn’t have stood for this bobba.
The Panel is closed.
I have a plan but I need 10 volunteers, suits, afro wigs, and a lot of shoe polish.
I thought this was Habbo Hotel. Never heard of whatever it actually is.
hazbin hotel is an adult cartoon musical tv show about the daughter of satan trying to establish a hotel with the aim of rehabilitating the souls of sinners so they can enter heaven.
it’s an excellent show! a lot of fun with a bunch of famous actors doing the voices/songs ;)
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Can anyone provide any actual evidence that says this kind of thing makes children’s lives worse? I was pretty uncensored as a kid and I’m honestly really grateful for it, i feel like it helped me adjust to the adult world well before my peers.
Honestly the things that got to me as a kid more than anything else was violence and the news. I recognized stuff like family guy to be fake and silly, but seeing and hearing about people getting killed or severely hurt in media and the news was sometimes traumatizing.
Nobody said it makes a child’s life worse. They’re not even talking about that.
It’s about kids being in places made for adults.
Like bringing a kid to a bar.
Do the tickets to these events say that they’re adult only?
Like, a concert ticket in the alcohol section (which is only because they can’t be served) will specifically prohibit under-21s. I guess I’m just curious why an event would “exclude children” without going so far as to actually exclude them.
There’s tons of kids running around at breweries.
Given, that makes the atmosphere different for sure
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Are they sex-themed breweries? Wild.
All breweries are sex-themed breweries.
You missed the opportunity to end that with -when I’m in them.
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It’s not only for the children’s sake but also for the adults. Adult spaces are adult spaces meant for adults. Adult spaces bring people peace of mind when they know there won’t be children around because they won’t need to worry about a child’s needs or behavior (and children can sometimes behave terribly). Having spaces that are child-free also mean adults can enjoy sharing in sensitive topics that children should not be privy to.
I was also pretty uncensored as a kid and think I turned out fine. Watched the grudge around 13-14, shows with nudity and swearing and murder between 10-13, etc. if I didn’t like something I turned it off.
On the other hand friends of mine had helicopter parents which had even a few Disney movies on their list of banned movies. They had many issues with nightmares and bed wetting growing up, and a few mental health issues later into adulthood.
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I think the issue is the label “18+”. It’s clearly arbitrary. In many countries women’s breasts have little to no stigma attached to them and are freely shown in media allowed for children. Even more so for sexual innuendos and themes. On the other hand, things I’m sure you would consider “cartoon violence” are outright banned or just not considered children’s content in these same places. (In America we normalize showing guns to children, but in places with more gun control a gun on TV can be shocking).
So when you (and not just you, many people have this same sentiment) say
Kids (talking 10 and under) shouldn’t be subjected to media or adjacent media that deals with 18+ adult themes. Period.
You’re appealing to a very very narrow definition of 18+ defined by your upbringing, time period, and region. To the poster before yous point, it’s pretty clear that kids are adaptable and are much less negatively affected by “adult themes” than we fear monger about evidenced by my earlier point that kids around the world are raised with wildly different standards as to what’s “18+” and they are all able to grow up into functioning members of society.
Now from what I gather about Hazbin Hotel it’s a pretty adult show, I’ve never seen a frame of it, but after looking it up it’s rated 16+? And people online are saying it could be fine for 13+ with adult supervision?? So how nasty can a panel get? (Edit: sorry I thought it was an “adult” adult show. This is just a YA show, seems like a lot of todo about nothing. Maybe the children were loud and it got annoying). I really don’t know. Maybe the show is extra gross but I’m not defending this particular instance, just the topic of this one thread.
Well, i would say I’m pretty well adjusted as an adult. I guess it’s not the easiest thing for me to argue because someone who isn’t could say the same thing. I don’t think it had much of an effect on me when i was really young because it was just one of those things people said would make sense when I’m older. Adults seemed to like this thing, but from my point of view back then they also seemed to like going to the store and filling out paperwork. It didn’t really affect me because it was not something i understood, so i just ignored it. Once it got to the point where i started having those feelings myself around 10-12 years old, i had already had enough context from my parents and through osmosis that a lot of those 18+ themes made sense, and they didn’t become alien or scary. I was able to go through those changes without any real shame about it because it was just a part of life. I definitely feel like if children are around that sort of thing then the parents are obligated to provide some context and help them develop a more healthy view of those themes (because the media alone definitely won’t cultivate those) but kids being around those themes i don’t think is inherently bad.
Your answer to ‘can anyone provide actual evidence’ sounds like a very wordy ‘no’ and a transparent attempt to distract from that.
wtf is a hazbin hotel panel?
A panel is normally a question and answer session involving the artists that made a particular piece of media.
Hazbin Hotel is an adult themed cartoon that has gained popularity recently.
So, the parents who bring children to hazbin conventions know what they’re doing.
I kinda doubt they realize they are making the performers uncomfortable. If they don’t see any reason their kids shouldn’t be there, why would anyone else have an issue?
People show up for the hazbin hotel panels?
I’m confused, was that not a popular show?
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Now hold on, it’s also popular to the religious traumatized crowds. Hi. It’s me. I’m the crowd.
A bit judgy aren’t we?
I find it stranger year over year that we keep turning the world into a functionally shittier place for all but the owner class, yet we keep insisting on raising children to believe they have sunshine and lollipops waiting for them in the world.
Fuck that. And I say that as a parent. My kid watches Hazbin Hotel, Archer, Rick and Morty, etc, and context is provided.
Have fun lying to your kids through omission by pretending the world is fair, wholesome, and rated G until they’re a tween though. Most of them already know the shit you tried to hide from them through their friends unless you sequester them at home which is also a disservice to them.
This sounds well and good but it depends a lot on your kid’s personality. I’ve tried to always be open and honest with my kid about every topic they have questions about but I don’t go out of my way to put adult content in front of them. That said I feel like I’ve had to learn over time when to temper my responses because I felt like I was contributing to unnecessary anxiety.
Having a young child worry about pandemics, nuclear weapons, etc just isn’t really productive because their mind isn’t capable of weighing risk and likelihoods the way an adult can. My kid refused to go outside and play for two days because (he asked) I told him that C. botulinum lives in the soil outside. Triggered a full blown panic attack that we would get botulism if we left the house, despite having been outside many times before that.
So yeah, I’m not trying to set my child up for a “the future is all rainbows” but I am now trying to be a little more moderate at what and when I introduce topics.
You can do whatever you want with your kid.
Don’t bring them to adult places. And especially don’t get offended if the adult place isn’t catering to your kids.
It’s a panel. Let’s say some parent takes their kid there.
The parent is either:
- Cool with the kid seeing what they’re about to see and won’t make a fuss
- Oblivious to what fandom their kid is interested in because “phone” and “babysitter” are synonyms to them, but they’re about to find out.
- A Christian hyperkaren deliberately bringing their kid to an adult panel because they want to freak out and go to the press and nucleate a moral panic that will result in death threats for many of those involved.
You’re a panelist. Do you moderate your language and behavior because there’s kids present, or do you take the risk and give the audience what they signed up for?
Pretend the kids aren’t there, no moderation. There’s no reason to be uncomfortable about kids showing up to an adult space, you do not have to accommodate them.
If the hyper Karen wants to make a moral panic then they’re gonna try to make a moral panic with or without kids. Even in your example the kids are just a prop to do what they already were trying to do. Deal with the hyper Karen if you have a hyper Karen problem.
This isn’t about protecting the kids. It’s about protecting the panel-goers from having to be around annoying kids.
Was the panel listed as “adults only”? Lots of kids were watching the pilot on YouTube. I’d say a substantial volume of its audience is 8 to 12 year olds.
It depends on the panel, but what if you don’t agree with age ratings board decisions and think it’s OK to bring your kid, shouldn’t their parent do the parenting? And why should it make anyone uncomfortable?
They aren’t doing the parenting, they are just making things awkward for everyone else attending who agrees with the ratings board decision that that kind of content is not for kids.
I mean lots of things can make things “awkward” for some people that shouldnt be banned - disabilities of all kinds, holding hands with a same sex partner, piercings/tattoos, blue hair, short skirts, farting, pregnant women, in some countries having your hair/shoulders/face/cleavage out…
Some people think kids shouldn’t be exposed to Harry Potter, D&D, rock music, seeing people drink alcohol…
I just don’t think it’s that big a deal.
This is such a shitty comparison lol
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So they are arguing to be allowed at adult conventions?
Can’t they just click the “I’m +18” button on websites like the rest of us?
In fairness I haven’t seen the show, I’m seeing a lot of parents say it’s for 13+ teens, and some say 8+.
It has swearing and jokes about sex. I was raised in a household where I couldn’t say “Damn,” “Fart,” or “Ass.” Two close friends of mine don’t care if their 6 year olds say “fuck.” And honestly, it seems like they have a closer relationship to their kids than I do to my parents (I love them and care for them, but our mode of communication is pretty formal).
Also, I was watching Urotsukidoji, Battle Angel Alita, The Guyver around 11-13 years which is probably way worse.
One of the main characters in hazbin is an anthropomorphic spider prostitute porn star drug addict named “angel dust” who is in a very graphic emotionally, physically and sexually abusive relationship with the porn studio director that’s exploiting them, and one of his major themes is why he hates himself for liking being treated like that.
While not the most graphic show Ive seen (despite multiple onscreen dismemberments), it’s easily the most adult oriented cartoon/anime I’ve watched. It’s certainly not geared for children and I would be extremely uncomfortable having a conversation about why people stay with their abusers with a kid. It’s not me being prudish, its that it requires a fuckload of societal context that most adults don’t have in order to be able to discuss it in anything like a mature way, and I don’t want to have to explain things like “the gray areas around coercion and nonconsensual sex” to someone else’s kid in a panel setting. It’s going to be as uncomfortable for them as it is for me when we get to, say, “self harm as expressed through consenting to sexual abuse”.
Thats an easier to explain example, and it’s certainly a conversation you should have with your kids when they’re old enough, but thats just one example out of many. I certainly don’t want to have to explain the 2000 years of real-world religious bloodshed being evoked with lines like “if hell is forever then that means heaven’s a lie” to a kid, either.
(Not to harp on about it, but the scene with angel trying to get charlie out of the studio before valentino notices her is such an accurate portrayal of living with an abuser that it regularly triggers people’s PTSD, and that commonly comes up at hazbin panels. You might have been watching Urotsukidoji as a kid, but I really doubt you were reading Lolita or The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo)
you’ve just convinced me that I must watch this show.
You should, it’s damn good! The sister show, Helluva Boss, is free on youtube and is quite different but also very good and I highly recommend it. (Heads up, Hazbin’s pilot episode is canon and plot critical and on youtube and is not included with the rest of the show, which is on prime video. Watch that first!)
I would be extremely uncomfortable having a conversation about why people stay with their abusers with a kid.
I… you don’t think they could learn from that?
I mean, if it’s really just that it’s too much work to explain, why would it make you uncomfortable?to have to explain things like “the gray areas around coercion and nonconsensual sex” to someone else’s kid in a panel setting.
Why would the panel people be the one’s doing this?
Real question here, you ever worked with any children, or is this idealism? Because the idea that a child could have the relevant background to understand the nuanced motivations of characters in these situations is pretty… well depressing, if we assume that all children are going to have that background.
As an illustrative example, children’s media. It isn’t simplistic because we’re condescending, it’s simplistic because its both to explain simple, fundemental concepts and becasue that’s what kids enjoy. They can relate to it, because it addresses concepts that they have the intellectual capacity and prerequisite understanding to be able to relate to it. This is childhood education at its heart.
I don’t want to explain concpets that most actual adults cant understand, or even discuss in a mature way, to a child. People use “you’ll understand when your older” all too often as an excuse to brush aside questions they just don’t want to take the time to explain, but sometimes it’s because explaining “I hated myself so much I didn’t care what happened with my body which is why I have all these scars that spell out words you hopefully dont know yet on my chest/legs/back” isn’t something a child can understand. And thank fuck for that.
Wouldn’t a kid just not understand what’s happening though? We’ve all experienced watching something again as an adult and being like “ohhhhh THAT’s what it’s about.”
And/or most kids recognize “this character is doing something bad,” even if they don’t understand the context, aren’t we just talking another satanic panic here? Like how it was false alleged CoD or D&D makes kids into serial killers.
I’m not saying kids shouldn’t watch it, though imo they shouldn’t, just that there’s no way I would be comfortable discussing it around a kid.
I think the danger is not in children understanding it, its that they’ll misunderstand it, and with some topics you want to be careful to ensure a kid has the right background context to understand it.
I get that you do not have to upvote something you disagree with, but we shouldn’t downvote this guy for an honest, different opinion. That’s how you create a hive mind.
I agree with that and I upvoted you, I don’t understand the downvote mentality, either you upvote or you don’t do anything, downvote should simply not exists.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Downvotes are my favorite part of this kind of comment system. I know that, per the rules, “downvotes aren’t for disagreement”, but most people don’t respect that and I think it’s asinine. Both kinds of votes are a valuable way of contributing to a discussion without having to spend the time and effort to write a comment.
Except for the fact that downvotes hide those comments. So all you are doing is creating an echo chamber where everyone agrees or gets removed from discourse.
Yeah, comment hiding was one of the worst changes Reddit ever made, that came years after already knowing that that part of the etiquette doesn’t work though and they did that stupid change anyway.
I agree with your sentiment, that’s what they should be, but time and time again we saw that it is not how they are used, downvotes mostly serve to mark disagreement , doesn’t matter that you provide interesting discussion, if people disagree then the comment gets downvotes to oblivion. And the platform turns into an echo chamber where only one opinion can ever exist.
Wasn’t me. But downvotes are great when used appropriately. We want shit that isn’t worth reading to get filtered to the bottom. A joke that isn’t worth reading. Off topic shit that isn’t a relevant tangent. Spam. Uncalled for rudeness.
But that shouldn’t mean every opinion that disagrees with your own.
Maybe downvotes should be limited. I don’t know that there’s a good technical way to fix this issue.
