An anonymous reader writes: Debian Project Secretary Kurt Roeckx has announced the results of a closely-watched vote on what statement would be made about Richard Stallman's readmission to the Free Software Foundation's board. Seven options were considered, with the Debian project's 420 voting d...
  • bringleborper@lemmy.ca
    213·
    3 years ago

    Nice to see the people at Debian are finally smartening up. Why bother with these kinds of things when there’s nothing to be gained other than losing a portion of your users and developers.

    • ljrk@lemmy.161.social
      92·
      3 years ago

      As far as I know the goal of Debian is not to attract the most users but a certain set of values. If RMS is incompatible with these values then there’s indeed something gained from distancing yourself.

      Debian is political, it always has been and just pretending it isn’t won’t do good.

      • bringleborper@lemmy.ca
        2·
        3 years ago

        As far as I know the goal of Debian is not to attract the most users but a certain set of values.

        The Debian Free Software Guidelines explicitly prohibits discrimination of the people who use their software regardless as to what their values are. They are writing software in the public interest which presumably means that they want the public to use it. Other than ensuring those who use the software are abiding by the license it’s licensed under there is nothing the project can do in terms of selecting who uses it.

        If RMS is incompatible with these values

        The values of free software? I think over the course of his entire life he’s demonstrated that he’s entirely committed.

        Debian is political

        I agree, but the only politics that really matter are those of computing freedom for all.

      • Ferk@lemmy.ml
        86·
        3 years ago

        When there’s actual proof that RMS is incompatible with the values that he himself claims to defend, then it would make sense for them to be against him.

        Not issuing a statement is by itself a skeptical position. I don’t think it’s about pretending not to be political.

        • ljrk@lemmy.161.social
          62·
          3 years ago

          I didn’t want to discuss whether there is proof, I think I’m on a different side there though.

          All that RMS did is in the open, what’s left is considering this either compatible (or irrelevant to) with Debian, or not.

          • Ferk@lemmy.ml
            13·
            3 years ago

            Debian values are also in the open: https://www.debian.org/social_contract

            One of the points is “No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups”. Imho, what’s missing is the aritmetic that connects the dots and proves (or disproves) that any of the points of the Debian social contract are in jeopardy because of “all that RMS did”.

            But as long as there’s no link, I think the wise move is to not move in either direction. Making a move just because “Debian is political” would not be good, imho.

            • ljrk@lemmy.161.social
              3·
              3 years ago

              Sure, that is “missing” but it’s nothing “in the dark” or “hidden that can be revealed”. Like, all information is indeed on the table. It’s up to the individual or the group to either recognise a libk if one exists or claim there is none.

              There’s nothing that could be revealed worth waiting for, is what I’m saying.

              • Halce@lemmy.ml
                4·
                3 years ago

                Because of Stallman’s jarring directness and language pedantry, I am open to the idea that he may have some light autistic features. Therefore, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that RMS had no malicious intent, simply a very pedantic way of expression, which does not make him guilty.

                It should also be considered then, whether those who in fact say they fight against discrimination (disregarding RMS’s actual intent) do not in fact discriminate, in a certain manner against him…

                • federico3@lemmy.ml
                  3·
                  3 years ago

                  He describes himself as essentially neurodivergent and tone-deaf (his word): https://www.fsf.org/news/rms-addresses-the-free-software-community

                  I’ve met him and a lot of people I know and trust have been around him at conferences. In 20 years I’ve heard plenty of complains about his public behavior and I’ve witnessed various episodes of that. Nobody ever told me in person that RMS is inherently evil or malevolent, but rather unable to act appropriately around people or understand what is socially acceptable, despite having been told many times. He apologized on various occasions over the years… without changing behavior.

                  Public roles are different from private life. A public speaker is responsible of communicating clearly, understanding the context of conversations, acting properly, and avoid creating these controversies in the first place.

                • ljrk@lemmy.161.social
                  3·
                  3 years ago

                  Is the point about guilt or being unfit for social leadership? Indeed it’s completely irrelevant whether there’s malicious intent, as the judgment is not about “should he be in hell or heaven” but “should he be leader of the FSF”.

                  Furthermore, he completely rejects the idea of him being autistic. In fact, many of the signatories of the “reject him from the board” letter are autistic or part of autistic support groups. And what they say is: Being autistic is not an excuse for hurting other people. Somehow all the people who are not a relevant part of the autism community suddenly all pop up and try to protect the poor autistic RMS… .

                  Discrimination due to some people claiming him to be autistic is simply bullshit in this context. Even more so because accepting him to question other peoples very identity and existence in society is a far more basic discrimination on his part. Be it “in malicious intent” or not. If he indeed were autistic then measures can be found to still make him fit for leadership, there are many autistic people in high positions (also signatories of the reject-rms letter).

                  And this is completely disregarding that he’s not only pedantic, but also, in many ways often literally wrong. Especially when it comes to meanings of words in languages. But that’s just a side note.

              • Ferk@lemmy.ml
                34·
                3 years ago

                Is there nothing that Stallman could say or do that could possibly bring light on the issue?

                If Stallman deserves all the “adjectives” that the open letter accused him of, I think ultimately there would be some more solid proof that justifies the slander, given enough time I think ultimatelly it’d be proven he’s what he’s accused to be, and then (and only then) he’ll deserve to be criticised by Debian and many other projects.

                If, on the other hand, it turns out that the mob accusing him was misinterpreting and dehumanizing him, then I think the opinion on him will never change no matter what he does… even if he begged on his knees crying, he’ll still be dehumanized.

                • ljrk@lemmy.161.social
                  3·
                  3 years ago

                  There are some things that are referenced that way, but the majority of things were/are out in the open.

                  I don’t want to go down this rabbit-hole, but the accusations aren’t anything new. In fact, they’re decades old and he was given a pass, multiple times. And at some point, yes, people will start seeing excuses as a farce.

                  Whether you think what he said was in fact e.g., transphobic is another matter. I personally doubt that he has much of “hate” for most or any of the groups, but, at the end of the day, he treats people in very demeaning matter. And he doesn’t seem to be capable of understanding why, what he does and says, is bad. And that’s fine – but not as a spokesperson. But that’s my personal opinion. My point is mostly about

                  • almost everything being on the table
                  • the accusations aren’t new
                  • either you can agree that the accusations are right or wrong.
    • Camarada Forte@lemmygrad.ml
      42·
      3 years ago

      people at Debian are finally smartening up

      I’d say that once they finally remove that terrible piece of software systemd

  • tricia@lemmy.161.social
    93·
    3 years ago

    No statement is still a Statement… They just say that they don’t care enough, which is quite sad regarding the topic

    • marmulak@lemmy.ml
      132·
      3 years ago

      It’s not, I think it’s wise of them to reject the controversy itself. It’s a waste of time to pay attention to it or feed into it

    • federico3@lemmy.ml
      5·
      3 years ago

      The diagram and beat matrix at the bottom of https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 tell a different story:

      • the cluster of options 1/2/3/4 are very strong and very close to winning.
      • the “support RMS” options 5/6 flat out failed
      • had the vote been between the two clusters, the first would have won.
      • Unsurprisingly, a lot of people voted “no statement” as a fall-back option, and Condorcet strongly favors options that makes most people “not completely unhappy” rather than making a relative majority with their preferred choice.