If the day started at 1:00 then by the second hour you would be at 2:00, even though only 1 hour has passed. Effectively the day starts at 0. In fact in 24-hour time that is how it’s depicted, 00:00 with midday being depicted as 12:00, so it isn’t confusing
Careful, there are Americans around
Americans love units based on 12
As a programmer I’d rather it start at 0
Yeah but now you can’t enjoy the delights of python
In the roman empire the day/night cycle was divided into 24 segments. 12 for the day and 12 for the night which also meant a day hour in summer was longer than the night hour.
If the day started at 1:00 then by the second hour you would be at 2:00, even though only 1 hour has passed.
When the second day of the month starts, the day of the month is 2, even though only 1 day has passed.
I mean, numerically it does make sense to start at zero but it doesn’t seem to correspond to the way people think and talk.
Feel free to take it up with the Romans. It’s their stupid calendar system.
I also take issue with there being 7 days in a week rather than 10, it’s just messy.
Which is also why I hate that our calendar starts at year 1.
Somebody never had a clock with roman numerals and it shows
I remember getting into an argument with a grade school teacher over IIII because most such clocks put that for 4 instead of IV because of some fuckin reason
I despise these so so much. IIII was historically NEVER correct. Some doofus decided to put that on a clock because it looks more symmetrical with the VIII on the other side. Terrible reasoning.
“However, even though it is now widely accepted that 4 must be written IV, the original and most ancient pattern for Roman numerals wasn’t the same as what we know today. Earliest models did, in fact, use VIIII for 9 (instead of IX) and IIII for 4 (instead of IV). However, these two numerals proved problematic, they were easily confused with III and VIII. Instead of the original additive notation, the Roman numeral system changed to the more familiar subtractive notation. However, this was well after the fall of the Roman Empire.”
https://monochrome-watches.com/why-do-clocks-and-watches-use-roman-numeral-iiii-instead-of-iv/
IIII was the way Romans usually wrote 4. It’s associated with simplicity / illiteracy. But also depended on era, region, intended audience, or practicality. I think the most famous example is the coliseum using LIIII.
There’s still variation even now; standardization is relatively new, and it’s not common knowledge. And dates… it’s like every 50-100 years people decided to write them differently.
Weird, I’ve seen many analog clocks with Roman numerals but always IV for 4.
It’s actually called the “clockmakers four” or “watchmakers four.” it’s a thing.
Yeah I looked it up and saw it is a thing, and it’s interesting. I wonder if the clock I’m thinking of was just a really cheap one that was labeled as you’d expect based on Roman numerals or whether some just didn’t follow it.
To be fair, Google searching Roman numerals clocks give you about a 50/50 distribution.
I wasn’t aware of this either and I suspect we’re not alone. It’s not highly noticeable and if there’s a 50-50 chance won’t even see it…
False. I had a clock that used IIII instead.
Your clock having it doesn’t change that mine didn’t.
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It’s the same logic that was used by ancient astronomers to arrive at 360 degrees for a full revolution.
The math is easier if you have to do it by hand.
These are called “superior highly composite numbers” apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_highly_composite_number
It’s also the one advantage Imperial has over metric. It’s easier to do mental math in a lot of cases in base 12 rather than base 10.
Now excuse me while I bar my windows and doors from the mobs of angry people that show every time I point this out.
Only really counts for feet and inches. But yes, having your base unit be divisible by halves, thirds, quarters, sixths, and twelths with whole numbers of sub units is highly useful when fabricating objects when you don’t have access to modern tooling and supplies. In fact I would argue base 12 is the superior numerical system that was abandoned for metric and we have lost something in the meantime. Though Jan Misali might disagree with his love for sexinal.
Imperial units do have another advantage to this day, though. When talking about machining bolts and threads Imperial use threads per inch or threads per unit length while metric uses the pitch of the thread, so mm in-between threads. This decision means that when machining imperial nuts and bolts we by default pick whole numbers of threads per inch which due to the circular nature of lathes means that a simple clock dial can keep the lead screw synchronised with the head. Since metric uses pitch we pick numbers like 1.25mm pitch which does not always synchronous well with the lead screw and head and requires some odd gear ratios to cut specific threads.
True, but why does volume/length/weight have to be separated? I honestly wouldn’t mind a base 12 system if they were connected logically.
I should have been more precise, I was really just talking about length measurements and less so on the holy fuckshit of everything else. I, too, would be super on board with a base 12 measurement system…
If we invent it we can have 3 competing standards!
Let me jump in until the mobs show up. “Noooooo, it’s just what you’re used to lalala. When is dividing by thirds ever useful, anyway?”.
I’ve also found that if you make this point without any reference to metric vs imperial, people tend to accept it.
That’s a good tip. I’ll keep that in mind next time this topic comes up.
Poor 70. Imagine being the objectively “weird” one out of a hundred.
You’ve gone 360 on me.
Clocks should use 24h format. AM/PM is completely useless.
No it’s not, with a 12h format on an analog watch you can use the sun to find true north. It is also easier to read it when the hands have double the amount of degrees to indicate the number.
Edit – digital watches should use 24h, I fully agree, maybe there was a misunderstanding because it’s analog watches we’re talking about here and these could stay 12h IMHO
How do you find north on a 12h face that wouldn’t work with a 24h face? Because the method I know, requires correcting for the 12h circle.
I have never seem a 24h wrist watch (I know they exist) aside from extremely seldom as wall clocks
I’ve looked for them, but they’re very hard to find and expensive too. You can’t just slap a 24h face on a 12h mechanism, so it’s all custom and produced in low volumes. (I think it’s technically possible to convert a 12h period into 24h by switching out a single gear, but that might ruin your minute hand too? I’m no clock maker.)
They don’t have to be expensive, though such watches are less popular for everyday use. In fact I’m wearing a Vostok Kommendurski with a 12/24 hour dial. When I was a medic, I needed to record all my times in 24hr format on my run reports. I think I paid $35US delivered from Russia 15 or so years ago.
And no extra gear is needed to make an analog watch/clock indicate 24 hour time. Time doesn’t change. You simple have one scale that reads from 12AM through 12PM and then at the next hour, (1PM) it simply gets renumbered to 13, 14, 15, 16 and so on until you reach 24 on the inside scale. Easy peasey.
But it is possible to build a watch/clock that the movement does move in 24 hour time and you would be correct it would a couple of extra gears to accomplish. But, it would also be a real pain to create a legible watch face with all those numbers on a reasonable sized watch. Far simpler and easier to print the two scales on the face and call it good.
You paid $35 for the watch, the delivery or both? Because I saw those Vostok watches with proper 24h faces, which is exactly what I’m looking for, but they’re $140. I guess that’s not super expensive for a watch, but I can get a much nicer 12h watch for that money.
And a double numbered clock face is the simple solution, probably more convenient to read, but also not really a conversation starter :)
Vostok Komandirskie
I paid $35 delivered from Russia. And honestly, I do not remember if that was a sale price or not because it’s been enough years ago now.Despite all the cheap quartz watches found in Walmart, $140 really isn’t all that much for a properly made manual wind watch these days. Even a plastic Timex will set you back nearly $120 for a quartz LCD with 24 hour display and only one choice of looks. So I probably wouldn’t consider the price out of line for the Komandirski with multiple choices available.
A Bespoke 24 hour mechanical movement would be quite the piece of horology art. A conversation started indeed.
Yeah, that’s the method I know.
Divide the angle that is made in half
And that’s how you correct for the 12h face.
Thought as much but never had any experience with 24h watches, so no comment on this from my side :)
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No, no comment in the sense of I have no experience with 24h watches so I cannot comment on them regarding this topic. If others have experience they might add their share, which they did.
With a 24h watch, you line up the hour hand with the sun. Because the sun does a full circle in 24h and the hour hand does the same, lining them up will always make 24 point north (on the northern hemisphere).
A compass is still the better option, because the magnetic field also points north in the southern hemisphere and doesn’t have to be recalibrated when you move too far east or west.
How the heck do you find north based on your watch? I’m pretty good at knowing where north in based on where I am.
I live in north Manchester so I know Manchester is south. Or I can look at the sun if not midday and figure it out.
How the heck do you find north based on your watch?
I live in north Manchester so I know Manchester is south
What if you go on a trip to Thailand and get turned around in the jungle?
Or I can look at the sun if not midday and figure it out
That gives you a very approximate direction.
It’s the same method.
The distance between the sun and 12 is divided by two, because the clock face only shows half the day.
If we had a clock with 24 hours in the circle and used the same method, it’d be the same as pointing at the sun and saying: South is where the sun will be at noon.
It’s useless in the jungle, as you can’t see the sun.
You don’t need to stare directly into the ball of fire to determine where the Sun is. All you need is the flashes of light through the leaves - and you CAN see that in the jungle.
Thanks.
I don’t generally go places like that, but if I needed to be aware of north I would take a compass.
Still good information though.
It sounds like a joke but I really had someone stop me on the street to ask for the time and when I said 2:30 they asked “AM or PM?” I guess a 24 hour clock would’ve prevented that.
Somebody gave me this clock…I just need the time.
ten ten
I have no issue reading this.
piece of art
The 6 means 30, both of which also mean 1/2
When I become dictator of the world, this will be the new time unit: https://metric-time.com/
The year will also have 13 months: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Fixed_Calendar
The year will be 12025: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_calendar
Because these things just make more sense. You will thank me after a few generations, because habits are hard to change.
Redefining the definition of a second sounds very problematic.
If you make the 13th month a holiday with no work, you have my support .
Seems a bit odd to not use a base 10 number of months.
Team 13-month-calendar assemble!
I haven’t done enough digging on metric time, but if it’s implemented as a UTC/global time I can get behind that. I’m sick of timezones and DST.
Nah, instead we’ll go back to the local noon standard where the time zone is set by when the sun is directly above you. Instead of a couple dozen time zones we’ll have thousands.
I’d love to have a 13-month calendar.
“At least we’re not mixing in letters”
I see
IIIIin there and I cry a little on the inside.This has become a standard on analog clocks and watches (presumably to avoid confusion with VI), but for some reason IX and XI (for 9 and 11 respectively) is fine.
Personally I’d like to see IX and IIIIIIIIIII.
ETA: I guess IX and XI are ‘fine’ because they’re not upside down, but my point still stands.
Hour hand -> hour = n
Minute hand -> minute = n * 5
It makes sense, there’s just an algorithm attached to each pointer.Hour -> 3 = 3
Minute -> 3 = 3 * 5 = 15The first clocks didn’t have a minute hand though.
Well it’s because noon means nine because the day starts at six o’ clock, so three is noon, but we use it to mean twelve which is closer to midday, obviously
Relatively funny but gets worse the more you think about it.
The 6 stands for 6, not 30.
When we have AM and PM it would be dumb to have 1-24.
1 is the end of the 1st hour. 2 the end of the second. This is why it starts at 0.
0
She’s a witch!
Only if she weighs as much as a duck.
She turned me into a naught!
*newt btw.
Yes, that was the intended play on words.
At least we’re not mixing in letters
Zulu Time: Am I a joke to you?
Also see this: https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca
It amazingly explains all the insanities for handling dates and times.
For some reason I heard this in a combination of the voices of Mitch Hedberg, and Nate Bargatze as George Washington.
6 means 30 is some toilet paper math
