They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, “one rape every six minutes,” “not all men but always a man,” and “giving in is not consenting.”
They chant: “Rapist we see you, victim we believe you.”
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over “rape culture” and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
not all men but always a man
Pointless sexist bullshit and wrong on its face. I never understood the drive some people have to paint abusive behavior as exclusive to men.
Exactly. If anything, signs like these drag the attention away from the actual issue.
I mean this thread is a good example of that and why such signs are bad
And pray tell, what exactly is the “real” issue?
Men and women being victims of sexual abuse, perpetrated by both men and women. It is not a genderlocked issue.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
Those are the kinds of numbers that come from laws defining rape as penetration and then only counting convictions.
Kind of like how the US had zero married women that were victims of rape by their husbands when it wasn’t a crime for husbands to rape their wives.
that quote you gave was taken entirely out of context. here’s the very next sentence:
In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways.
No but the number of assaults by men far outweigh the number by women. And that Scientific American article is just your way of brushing off the fact that men are the primary offenders when it comes to sexual assault. You are exactly like the gun enthusiasts who throw the statistics on mental illness as the true cause of gun deaths and not the guns they use.
Edit: Just cause you seem to be including that link everywhere you post here I’m going to include this link to the 2024 study of sexual assault in France.
https://www.statista.com/topics/8875/violence-against-women-in-france/#topicOverview
“Primary” does not mean “always” however
Oh yeah, you got me there. Statistically small number of women who commit sexual assault completely absolves all men of being complicit in the sexual assault committed by mostly men. We definitely have to correct our perceptions on that one. Sure okay.
hey as a guy who was assaulted, please stop saying all men are complicit. do you understand what you’re saying when you say that?
Sorry you’re getting this reaction. I am a man who was abused by women and all the support groups lead to me taking to a room full of women about it. Do men come forward less often? Yes. It would have to be like 1 in 100 men coming forward for it to be equal. I’ve had one other male friend who has been assaulted, but over half of the women I’ve been friends with have.
If it helps anyone with that being anecdotal, you have to look at the statistics of who is doing it: people in power. Just that alone means more men simply have the opportunity. Add to that that men are told sex is power, and that men who have sex often are virile, whereas women who do are slut shamed. It’s getting better, but still far off.
Anyway I’ll take the downvotes, but every statistic we have shown is that men are the primary antagonist in the vast majority of sexual assault against both men and women.
So how exactly am I complicit for some dude raping someone? Just because I have a penis? And are all women completely exempt or are all women also complicit?
Sexual assault is bad. Apparently you disagree.
Reading the article, it says that both men and women attended the protest against rape culture in France, so the real issue is that France has a rape culture. People vs culture.
This comment section however is about a few of the signs that a few of the protesters carried, and/or the comments from the self proclaimed feminist representative who says they’ll use these protests to promote their own agenda. That’s different, because that’s a gender issue. Men vs. Women.
I understand why some people are annoyed by that, because it splits the people instead of uniting them against the primary enemy: The culture.
Anyway this is just a lemmy thread, and it doesn’t matter who is right, but it shows that even talking about it is a distraction from the “real issue”, because while we are discussing signs and rape statistics, nobody is talking about the rape culture.
I don’t know exactly what the feminist representative wants to do, or if she has a point, but I do believe that we need to be able to unite both men and women to speak freely against the culture, because rape culture is enabled by people who don’t speak about it. Alienating half of them is bad timing in that regard. To stop rape culture we need both men and women to speak against it.
I hope this makes sense. This thread has gone completely off the rails…
I guess it’s sometimes done in the spirit of forcing men to really consider their actions, because most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men. And we usually have plenty excuses for our own abusive behavior. So it is like saying: “no, stop with the excuses, the problem is you”, in the hopes that this message will also reach its intended audience, ie the many men who are abusive to women in one way or another and, largely, in denial.
But I agree, these kinds of slogans annoy the hell out of me too and are totally not helpful in more ways than one, e.g., when men seek protection from abuse. I guess there are better ways of making a more forceful point about holding men accountable.
most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men
I’m sure most if not all abusers are in denial and don’t consider themselves abusers, but this slogan gives a pass to ones who happen to be women by insisting that they don’t exist at all.
I don’t think that slogan communicates what you’re saying here well, if at all
There’s a comedian who told a story, that I feel almost every guy can tell as if it was theirs…
They had that friend in their friends group. You know, the kne always making misogynic jokes etc. Well, yeah, that guy eventually raped someone.
You know where he says it was his, the comedian’s, fault? The whole group always laughed at those jokes, or maybe didn’t laugh, but definitely didn’t dismiss them, didn’t lecture the guy, didn’t tell him it was not ok.
There’s this men’s club where misogyny is an accepted business as usual. And it enables deranged individuals.
So, as a man who’s aware of the statistics, you can start doing some prevention: shame other men for misogyny.
Oh, and btw, fuck the lady with sign. She’s a petty sexist using someone’s tragedy to support her hate for men.
As a man, “that” guy initially received physical consequences, and is now locked in a box. All the people that made that happen also identified as men. It’s almost like rape is bad and everyone agrees, including men.
Maybe it was the 50 men that raped this woman?
Women rapists are more rare. And comments like this only serve to promote rape culture. Maybe stop and think of how many women are hurting before you start screaming sexism and then maybe women will listen to your point of view.
Women rapists are more rare. And comments like this only serve to promote rape culture.
They exist, right? In direct contradiction to what the sign is plainly saying, right? But pointing that out is somehow promoting rape culture? That is ridiculous and offensive. They mean to exclude an entire category of survivors. To believe that slogan and uncritically repeat it, you’d need to be willfully ignorant and have the emotional intelligence of a turnip.
Sex abuse of all kinds is evil and a social menace. By people of any gender, against people of any gender. No equivocation, full stop.
Maybe stop to think about the male victims of female abusers in this fucking thread before you hand wave us away as “more rare” and “promoting rape culture” by “not being excited about being lumped in with abusers simply for having a penis while our abusers are lauded for having vaginas.” You excusing it as rare and that sign pretending women can’t rape are promoting rape culture, full stop.
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Funny how ready you are to claim a random person you don’t know is an abuser for making a good point.
And completely failing to comprehend that what YOU are doing is abusive behavior. Real gold star child behavior.
I think that was a meme that should have been put on the sign, not against the comment.
Sorry, I don’t understand what you said.
Edit: Oh, you meant that it should be on one of the posters protesting about The Monster of Avignon, then certainly. He is a disgusting human, completely atrocious and his wife is a massive hero, for standing up to such scrutiny and to the public eye, I wish I could bake her a pie or something for being so brave, and an inspiration to abuse victims everywhere.
This is the way.
Who the hell down view me for this… And why!?
I would assume it was because the person who posted said “meme” turned out to be a sexist asshole, taking their “benefit of the doubt” and wiping their ass with it further down the comments, and getting a bunch of those comments deleted.
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yeah, that 4% of sexual assaults being committed by women that are being totally ignored by the media is the REAL problem.
I can’t speak for how their “sexual violence” criterion is defined, but as for the “rape” statistic, most western countries (France probably included) define rape for reporting purposes as “forced penetration”, specifically excluding “forced envelopment” from the statistic, and thereby excluding practically all male rape victims with female perpetrators from crime statistics.
For example, here are the statistics for sexual violence in the year 2011, according to the CDC (note that these are for the US, and may be significantly different for France, though the reporting method is likely the same - there’s also a 2013 CDC report with effectively the same numbers for the US):
an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
And
The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.
Added together, we see that 7.1% of women and 5.1% of men reported being victims of sexual violence in 2011. That is, 58% of victims of all sexual violence in 2011 were women, and 42% were men. For every 3 female victims, there were 2 male victims.
Now on to the frequently cited claim that more than 95% of perpetrators are men. From the “Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators” section about a third of the way down, keeping in mind the percentages above:
For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators (more on this later…). In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators.
And
For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%), and unwanted sexual contact (an estimated 54.7%). For noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, nearly half of male victims (an estimated 46.0%) had only male perpetrators and an estimated 43.6% had only female perpetrators.
To help us with the breakdowns of these numbers, earlier in the report we find that:
1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey [and] an estimated 1.3% of men experienced sexual coercion in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 1.6% of men having experienced unwanted sexual contact in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 2.5% of men experienced this type of victimization (noncontact unwanted sexual experiences) in the previous 12 months
So, of the 1.7% of made to penetrate male victims, 82.6% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.3% sexual coercion, 80% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, 54.7% were female, and of the 2.5% noncontact, 43.6% were female.
So, 1.4% of the 1.7% made to penetrate, 1% of the 1.3% sexual coercion, .9% of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, and 1.1% of the 2.5% noncontact.
So, 4.4% of the 7.1% of men reporting sexual violence had female perpetrators. That is, 62% of sexual violence against men is committed by women (in 2011).
So, going back to our numbers above, we see that 62% of the 42% of sexual violence with men as victims was committed by women.
Our final numbers are: 74% of sexual violence in total in the US is committed by men, and 26% is committed by women. Which ain’t great, but that feels a lot more realistic than “95%”, and it’s a far cry from the intentionally misleading numbers you’re citing.
BUT IT GETS WORSE…
What happens when we look at just rape? Note that first we have to figure out what the CDC means by “rape”, because at first “99% of rape is committed by men” looks pretty damning.
Well, “rape” is defined by the CDC for the purposes of this study as “completed or attempted forced penetration or alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration”. That is, only being penetrated counts as rape.
Men, on the other hand, get the completely separate category “made to penetrate”, that is, “being forced to have sex with someone, just doing the penetrating instead of being penetrated.”
So, 99% of rapists are men because rape is intentionally defined as “being penetrated” to exclude male victims of rape from the statistics. I wonder why…
Well, what happens when we actually look at those numbers, counting “made to penetrate” as, y’know, rape, because it is rape?
an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey
And
The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
Which is, again, because male rape victims are effectively excluded from this definition. Also, we have this:
an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey
And
Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),
Note that these numbers clearly show that made to penetrate happens just as much each year as “rape”. This means that fully half of rape victims are men (in 2011 - the number fluctuates in the other years of the study, but not more than 5%).
Finally, if 99% of rapists are men and 83% of an equal number of “made to penetrators” are women … then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex (that is, rape) in 2011 were women.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it’s important to debunk this sort of misandrist misinformation.
Edit: Here’s a Time article that confirms these numbers. They also mention that boys under 15 are more likely to be sexually assaulted than women over 40, and are more than twice as likely to be assaulted as girls under 15. Again, this may be different for France, but it’s pretty damning for the US.
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Who the fuck taught you statistics? A large percentage of a small percentage added to the larger percentage of the whole doesn’t make a medium percentage of the whole. JFC 😮💨
Tell me you didn’t read my comment without telling me you didn’t read my comment (the paragraph you want is the one immediately above the one you quoted, btw - I’ve made an edit to the paragraph you quoted to make the math clearer).
You could also feel free to check the Time article I linked to see someone else come to the same numbers I did.
And misandry isn’t really a thing. It’s something misogynists say in order to perpetuate a false equivalency. So thanks for outing yourself.
Big oof. I can see that you’re far too set in your sexism for me to waste any more time trying to have a constructive conversation with you.
I did look at your time article and I did read your comment, the whole thing. I stand by my assessment of your lack of statistical prowess.
And would you like to know why I completely dismissed the entire Time magazine article?
Cathy Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine.
That right there is the author of the article. And if I have to explain to you what Reason Magazine is then you’re part of the problem.
You are the problem. I very much look forward to 5 years from now when you will bolt up in bed in the middle of the night with a crushing realization of how unacceptable your past behavior was.
I’m not out to debate the statistics of “REAL problem” with you. I’m pointing out that it’s counterproductive (and I believe morally wrong) to tell survivors they’re unworthy because their abuser was a woman. I get the feeling some people care more about gendering this issue than they do about about victims of abuse.
Yeah literally no one is saying that a victim of sexual assault is unworthy of anything because their assaulter is a woman and not a man. We’re talking about the issue of men thinking it’s okay to sexually assault because it’s almost never fucking prosecuted.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of men to acknowledge and hold accountability to their fellow men who commit sexual assault.
I’ve said it elsewhere in this thread but this is exactly the same as the gun enthusiasts bringing up mental illness statistics as a way of absolving guns of their role in gun violence.
Thread has a photo of a sign saying “not all men but always a man”.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of
No. Bringing up the statistic is a way of correcting an intentionally skewed view that is vilifying men for no fucking reason. If you’re gonna be a dick about things, don’t go crying when you get shafted.
Since men are the primary perpetrators it’s not skewed not even a little bit. Yes, there are women who commit sexual assault but the number of women who do it is such a small percentage as to be almost statistically insignificant compared to the number of men who do.
Men commit sexual assault every single day and barely 5% of them get prosecuted for it. And every person who claps back with this idiotic argumentative excuse that “women do it too” is just feeding into a system that has made this world completely unsafe for women.
men are the primary perpetrators
the number of women who do it is such a small percentage as to be almost statistically insignificant compared to the number of men who do.
Men commit sexual assault every single day
barely 5% of them get prosecuted for it.
Citation needed
Listen, it’s very obvious we’re not on the same page. You’re responding to a comment thread that contains a comment literally contradicting most of your points, and you’re not being rational about it. You’re spouting wild claims with little regard for backing them up - it’s as if în your head, they’re axioms and not only do they not require proof, but invalidating them would mean the rest of the world crumbles. And I’m sure for you, that’s true.
All things considered, continuing this “discussion” brings no value to either of us. Have a good one.
Citation needed
Yeah, this just told me everything I need to know. I didn’t even read the rest of your comment. I’m just going to downvote you and move on.
The police who recite such stats in my area don’t consider me a victim of my repeated assaults, specifically because of my gender. I guess I should probably pipe down and stop being so uppity and hysterical though. After all my private parts are outside of my body so they’re basically asking to be used by anyone.
I don’t know where in the stats I quoted it said anything about dismissing male victims? In fact that statistic includes male victims because most sexual assault on males is committed by other males. Now if you were assaulted by a woman I’m sorry and that’s terrible, but the fact is that it’s a rarity in comparison to the acts committed by men. But all should be treated with equal seriousness. And none of it is, because men are in power and they don’t tend to consider rape or sexual assault a “real” crime.
Yeah, the victims of women are just babies who should quit crying about being a victim. As if it’s a REAL problem, right? Who gives a shit, they’re just men they don’t have any feelings they’re just here for our entertainment.
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From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
Plus, when has a man ever been drugged and gang raped by only women? That’s what’s even more disturbing about this case.
Oh so we can only care about male victims of rape if they’re gangraped now? Gotta admit this is a new one on me, most just tell me I must have enjoyed it both times women raped me because I’m a man.
Who gives a shit about all that though, because one of them got me drunk so I wasn’t “drugged” and there was only one of her, and the other was also singular and only used blackmail rather than intoxicants. Besides, men don’t have feelings anyway they’re like fish. I don’t even think they’re people, are they?
I did not say any of that.
You replied in addition to a comment that is attempting to erase male victims experiences by waving them away as “only 4%.” Thus, you saying “plus it’s not like men are drugged and gangraped” reads as a tag on why we can further ignore male victims of rape, “because women have it worse” being the implication.
Ok Mr False Equivalency. That study is from 2017. This one is from 2015.
That Scientific American article and study also pertain to America. And the statistic in the article is from the French government report from 2021.Edit: I couldn’t find the statistics from 2021 but I could find this one from 2024. And would you look at that, the statistics on the percentage of male rapists in France is even higher now.
You being downvoted shows that men are never going to listen to women about this.
96% of perpetrators are men. It’s a statistic that goes against their “women are abusers too!” defense they have to protect their own egos from the reality that one of their friends is likely an abuser.
96% of perpetrators are men. It’s a statistic that goes against their “women are abusers too!” defense they have to protect their own egos from the reality that one of their friends is likely an abuser.
literally rape apology from you here.
The provocative and stupid sign in the article has completely derailed a potential discussion about fixing this problem and the exact nature of the problem - because it says something that denies anybody experiencing something outside it’s narrow statement their lived experience. It’s also not a men vs women issue - there are women that are assaulted by other women, who are equally silenced by this stupid sign. If you believe that a single rape is one too many (as any person on the fucking planet should), then explain to me how 4% of all rapes simply don’t matter - and how it isn’t offensive at a movement which is borne of abuse victims fighting against the system that facilitates it, and silences victims - to not only completely disregard men that have been victims of women (or women which have), but to then say that anybody who highlights the fact that rape can be perpetrated by a woman, even if it isn’t the majority of the time - must therefore be a rapist or friend of one. Fuck that noise.
stop making dumbass generalisations that paint those of us who make active choices to support women and act decently, being an ally as “probably having rapist friends” because of our gender - like seriously what the actual fuck is wrong with you?
Nobody is denying that the majority of rapes are men against women, but the disgusting attitude you have here that all men are automatically rapists, when there are people that want to fix this culture and stop the problem - but stupid nonsense like this pushes so many people down the alt-right pipeline and sets the entire movement back decades. Literally all you have to do to defuse this entire fucking issue is acknowledge male victims instead of pretending they don’t exist, and then link arms with them when they support the same reflections and changes to society and behaviour - instead it’s been turned into a stupid ‘men vs women’ fight by people that assume all people of one gender are perpetrators and all of another are victims, instead of the much more simple universal truth that rape is evil and you should just be able to accept that without adding qualifiers.
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‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Otherwise, I’m absolutely in favour of rehabilitation, and if necessary, isolation of rapists - of all genders. I hope the court/government can be made to agree
From the article:
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
It seems that sexual violence has been hidden in plain sight and downplayed heavily by the police and justice system, or simply socially accepted.
It’s estimated 10% of people have been victim of incest, here in France. How can you build something safe based on that.
I don’t believe our current justice system allows for proper rehabilitation. Second offense for such crimes are still very high (10%?).
IMHO It’s a nation wide educational failure and our politicians aren’t really keen on fixing this, for now.
Keep in mind those numbers don’t perfectly reflect reality though. Probably a few percents off in favor of women
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Were you responding to something specific I said or just providing more facts?
Just providing more facts on the “all men” plus maybe a bit more context on the situation here.
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If you flag the same post multiple times again, you will be banned.
You cannot flag the same post multiple times on Lemmy.
You’re under the impression it is because it’s an exact copy paste comment multiple times in the same post which is the reason I flagged it as spam…
Look flyingsquid,
It’s not cool to publically expose reports that can be sensitive in nature and can put a target on a users back for what they report which can be especially dangerous if people find out the real life details on a user on lemmy and target them in real life or do something like swatting which can get someone seriously hurt or killed
A private message would be a lot better for communicating with users
How does France legally define rape ?
If its a gendered definition then the statistics are incorrect because rape can be committed by both sexes
These statistics are more biased by our police not accepting the victims’ complaints than our justice’s definition, or also what we see as socially acceptable. That’s why these stats have risen so much in the recent years.
Heck our president met his wife when he was a minor and she was his school teacher, we have ex high government official mixed in incest stories…
As much as it’s false to say it’s always men, these numbers exist more as a reflection of our justice system and shouldn’t be used to infer stats on the society as a whole.
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Oh, it’s much worse than that: the CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
50% of all cross-gender rapists are women, and yet almost 100% of all convicted rapists are men.
What an exemplary case of systemic gender bigotry and misandry in society and the legal establishment.
Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yes that 4% really really must be stopped.
Yes.
All of it should be. Why the fuck shouldn’t it be stopped too? Wtf?
Nice try from an overly quoted study done on bad faith, here is a better one that shows, with sources, that said study is incorrect.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
I like how he talks about the “overly quoted study” (which is not actually where the statistic in the article comes from, but whatever) and yet he has posted this same article literally everywhere in here as a way of justifying dismissal of the fact that nearly all rapes and sexual assaults are committed by men.
I don’t like that sign. Sure, when she gets raped it’s probably a man but every time it’s happened to me so far it has been a woman, so, no not “always a man.”
“Good” news is that while I was forced to have sex (or else what was I gonna do fight her? Yeah that won’t end with me in cuffs) it isn’t rape because definitionally the worst women can do in my area is sexual assault, and people only care if you’re a minor, just try and report it as an adult. Most people just think “oh you’re a man you must’ve liked it” and just minimize it away because we’re just sex objects so who fucking cares, I just had to get the fuck over it and I did, but it still pisses me off that I’m literally the victim of this shit and treated like a perpetrator by default just because I happen to have a penis, it’s the ultimate “fuck you” on top really.
As a male SA victim I have been repeatedly told that it was my fault for having the privilege. So I guess “you’re welcome” to both of us.
Women will continue to have their feelings trampled on by men because that’s all they’re teaching us as kids.
You should look inwards to figure out why you’re so outraged by the existence of male rape victims. It’s a you issue.
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Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of ‘not all men’ vs ‘basically all men’ threads
Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I’ll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It’s that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there’s subtitles).
As a woman… “Dudes it’s only an embellishment” “noone thinks ‘all men’ is meant seriously” STFU you’re being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don’t mean it like that right now, in this instance, it’s still how it’s perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
The internet loves to argue with a generalization that is only true 9,999 times out of ten thousand.
Help me with the math on this, if “it’s always men” 9,999 out of 10,000 times, and I’ve personally been raped by two women, what’re my odds on that? I must be getting all the rape the women of the world can dish out then, huh?
Couldn’t possibly be that men seldom report, seldom are taken seriously when they do, and even when they are taken seriously in many places women can’t legally “rape” so the best they can get a slap on the wrist for is “Sexual Assault” for forcing men to have sex with them? Could it? No waaaaayyyyy.
Instead of letting my numbers make you feel small, perhaps think for a second how enormous the problem of male sexual assault is. That’s the math help you need here.
I agree, male sexual assault is a problem and nobody is talking about it. In fact when we (males who have been sexually assaulted) try and, not even “be included,” just “not be excluded,” we’re told to sit down and shut up, we’re only 4% so we don’t matter, we must’ve liked it if our body responded naturally to stimulus, she was hot anyway so we’re lucky, and quit being a pussy." In fact legally in my area and many more the worst the women who forced me to have sex with them even could be charged with is sexual assault becausr technically “rape” requires penetration. Isn’t that fucked up?
How 'bout instead of trying to silence male victims of sexual assault when they’re rightfully indignant about being excluded you do a little soul searching and try and realize why we “always have to make the conversation about us” when people write signs like “not all men but always a man,” m’kay? Maybe that introspection will lead you to opinions like “rape is possible for women to commit, and it’s bad when they do it too, AND we should speak for all victims of all genders or lack thereof, and against all abusers of all genders or lack thereof, rather than ‘men bad women good nonbinary irrelevant.’”
How 'bout instead of trying to silence male victims of sexual assault when they’re rightfully indignant about being excluded you do a little soul searching
Dude you’re desperately trying to make this about you and aiming all your complaints about society at me when I have done exactly nothing you describe.
Here we are, in a thread about a woman being raped, with you lecturing me about how much male rape matters. That just says everything right there.
If you think no one online talks about or cares about male rape then you just aren’t listening. It’s one of Reddit’s favorite topics. They never miss a chance to highlight male rape, and threads about it get 100x the love of those discussing the problem of rape by males. Your issue is, in a word, overrepresented if anything.
You matter. Your trauma matters. You really seem to need to hear that. But yeah your assault is not in fact interchangeable with that of women. Theirs is the result of systematic devaluing and oppression of women across our culture that makes assault almost inevitable. Yours is a deplorable act of violence but not continuous with the entire fabric of our society.
In other words, we’re set up to rape females. And so we’d better talk about that. What do we do to prevent much more rare and isolated incidents of violence? I’m really not sure how much we have to say about that.
Anyway I won’t reply again or read replies. It’s been said.
“Overrepresented”
“Always a man.”
Yeah, I guess it has been said. Fuck me for calling out bullshit when I see it, I should just sit down and shut up again, huh?
Good, don’t reply.
Then maybe you should understand that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
Now consider: how many women do you see convicted and jailed for rape?
crickets
That’s the sound of massive gender bigotry in play, right there - 50% of all cross-gender rapists getting away Scott-free, purely by virtue of their gender.
His point is that is not what the article is about. It’s off-topic.
I get that you’re passionate about getting your point across but it’s swamping the discussion a bit.
It’s not off topic. If you link me to a YouTube video with a sponsor that really sucks, I’m gonna talk about how that sponsor sucks. You can’t just tack on some garbage and be all “just ignore that part, it’s not up for debate.”
I understand that it merits discussion but every thread on this post is about that aspect, and that’s frankly a bit much.
Show me a sign that’s demonizing me, and I’m gonna focus on that rather than whatever they’re pretending the sign is about. You teach your boys that their feelings don’t matter and that they’re bad out the gate and that’s how they’re gonna treat you when they’re older.
You teach your boys that their feelings don’t matter and that they’re bad out the gate
Cue mandatory anti-rape training at higher ed, but only for men, ramming home the myth that men are the source of all of society’s ills and the villain in all possible crimes.
Whoa that escalated quickly, and is entirely not about what I was saying.
Well if you wanna be on topic, address the problem instead of making it worse. We’re in here criticizing those people making it worse. Quit defending their bullshit.
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Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.
Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.
But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.
Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.
I just came here to say “More power to her!”, she’s setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we’ve had in society since time immemorial.
Wow, so smart and supportive of you to pick a side and fling shit the other way.
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What do you mean? What other side? The rapist’s side? Are you saying you are on the rapist’s side?
Acting stupid here only helps your case with the stupid among the audience. You know damn well this is about demonizing men.
Honestly I’m also confused by your reply. How is a woman going to court because she’s been raped by 50+ strangers demonizing men? I’m asking questions, not from stupidity, but because you aren’t making sense.
No I’m genuinely confused by what you said. The only other side, is the multiple rapists in the article. There is the victim, and then the people who raped her. Which “other side” are you referring to? Are you
openone of those sociopathic trolls who get off on making comments like this to cause discord? *Autocorrect edit
You take a statement about how women shouldn’t be raped as a personal attack. Thanks for letting us all know to keep as much distance between us and you as possible, very thoughtful :3
You’re the black mage.
I thought you were against acting stupid?
Feel like quitting that any time soon?
My heart breaks for her. I’m glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I’m not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
My mom molested me when I was a child. Not always a man, and fuck that bitch for trying to pretend it’s so.
Imagine being the victim of a female pedophile and seeing that sign
imagine taking this story, about where a woman was systematically drugged and raped for OVER 10 YEARS, and going “ah yes but what about the men?!?”. I truly feel for the men in the comments sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to share and raise awareness, but Jesus y’all not the time
Let me ask you a question.
If this were about a gang of black people committing some crime, and as a protest someone was carrying a sign that said “not all black people, but always a black person” would you be telling people it’s “not the time” to point out the obvious and blatant racism?
Take your own fucking advice. If men talking about their own rapes triggers you so, then you are the same crap you are crying about. You are sexist beyond belief.
It’s never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories, we’re always told to shut up and deal with it.
I was molested by a woman as a child. That sign just makes me see red, I’m sorry if my trauma and triggers are inconveniently timed for you
Yeah exactly. I’m a man who was assaulted as a kid by a woman. Shit happens. But looking at what shit happens most often - it’s sexual violence perpetrated by men against women.
I don’t know how we change that. Maybe by continuing to level up the power dynamic between men and women, I feel like we’ve been making some progress with that over the past century. Finally. But it’s more than that, there are too many idiot arseholes who think they can have anything their fists can beat down. Almost all of them are men.
Pretty much every girlfriend and female friend I’ve ever had has had bad experiences with men. Women I have cared about over the years have had experiences across the spectrum from cat calling and comments back when they were kids in school uniforms all the way through to stranger rape. Domestic violence isn’t uncommon either.
I dunno, I wish I had a solution. It fuckin breaks my heart - when a close friend or a partner opens up about what happened to her and there’s nothing you can do, it’s years too late, you have these thoughts like if I’d been there I could have stopped it- but it happened years ago and you are fuckin helpless to do anything except maybe hug her if she’s comfortable with that, or if not try to tell her it’s over, she’s safe and stronger now, whatever you think might help.
You don’t realise how harmful sexual assault is until you’ve been unable to help someone you love. The key word isn’t ‘sexual’, it’s ‘assault’.
Shit like that makes me fuckin ashamed to be a bloke. I don’t know how we fix this, but I’ve got two suggestions for a good start - firstly, we don’t do that shit. Never, there’s never an excuse. Secondly, we fuckin shut down other guys, even if they’re our mates, if they start with that sort of talk.
Yeah, there’s wrong uns in whatever gender. But in terms of atrocity it’s us men well in the lead. We gotta change that. I think we can at least fuckin try.
thanks for being one of the reasonable ones in this comment section lol. and it seems you’re doing a pretty good job of trying to enact change. keep it up, it’s a team effort :)
sorry to hear about your story as well, hope everything is going well for you now.
Cheers, yeah I’ve kinda grown into my own shit. It’s caused me a lot of problems over the years, but I’m getting old now and I’m okay with stuff.
I’m just saying that anyone can get hurt like that, but it’s mostly women getting hurt and it’s mostly men doing the hurting. We’ve got to fuckin stop doing that because it is profoundly wrong.
Lol does it feel good that they literally called you “one of the good ones?”
Personally I think that’s pretty wild, imagine saying that to a black person lol. I’d frankly be upset by that
if I were youwait I am upset about it lol, look at me being one of those uppity men again.They said reasonable ones, not good ones. Those words have two different meanings. Don’t put words in their mouth.
Mmhmm, and if I told my friend (who is black, important note) that I like him because he’s one of “the reasonable ones,” that would be tooootally normal and not racist at all right? Right?
Ooooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
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no that’s not true at all. you’re supposed to talk about it, to share your stories, to go to therapy, support groups. to make online spaces to discuss and heal and grow. same as women. unfortunately, the only time I ever see men share their stories is when it takes away from a women’s experience, which is disgusting as has been happening more and more on this app.
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It literally does matter when you talk. If BLM groups only ever protested when there was another protest they could hijack that would garbage. Stop talking over other victims if you actually give a shit. Doing what you and arcaneslime and a bunch of other m*n here are doing has the same effect as going to a BLM protest with All Lives Matter signs
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Removed, civility.
LMAO really signaling allegiances censoring “men” like that. I would take a cue from you and start censoring w*men but thankfully I don’t actually hate “women,” I hate rape apologists like you.
And I’m “a menonite” or whatever you called me earlier, right. You’ve got problems lmao.
And don’t talk about me behind my back, have the common decency to tag me in your little tantrums.
If it weren’t for that “but always a man”, there would be no issue. Celebrating “but always a man” is the issue driving objections here.
The problem is the sign in the thumbnail. It sure as good god fuck is not always men and you’re a disgusting liar to claim that.
jesus man, not everything is about you. sure, not all men are sexual predators. easy enough to agree on. but the point is that all men have had opportunities to call their peers out on creepy behavior, whether it’s catcalling, looking down on women, sexualizing them, etc. and failed. each of these 50 plus men in this story could’ve reported this as odd, or talked to the women and made sure she was ok, or hung around until the drugs wore off to double check, and didn’t. each of them were given an opportunity and they took full advantage of it and of her. so yeah. all men have failed women at some point, and each of your MANY comments in this thread are honestly just another example of that, taking away from this poor women’s story to wage your personal crusade.
All men can walk around at night or alone never thinking about it though
Lol maybe if you’re a white guy in a middle class neighborhood below the age of 60 that doesn’t have any open indication of being queer or a ethnic/religious minority.
Men are much more likely to be a victim of every other violent crime besides rape.
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You’re right! Especially they get victimised by people who call themselves conservative
If you think this is a conservative thing I really don’t know what to tell you. Anyone who has been paying attention for the last five years could tell you that this is a problem that goes beyond political affiliation.
Said as another absolute that you shouldn’t, as if PTSD doesn’t exist for men that do get raped but just not as frequently.
Yes it’s skewed but seriously try to avoid absolute statements like that cause it absolutely will push the same victim ignorance that we try to avoid with women comig forward and it will upset people.
Just say “most” or even the “average man”
Well, the preceding comment wasn’t really in good faith, pooping on a thread with tone like “you’re a disgusting liar”, so I didn’t think they* deserved much benefit of doubt
*THEY. Not “he”. See whut I done there?
Your comment doesn’t attack the person upset it just leaves out other victims as if they don’t exist.
You can edit a comment at any time and you don’t have to be miserable or rude just cause someone else is.
It’s the same argument people made during the black lives movement by saying all lives matter. Of course all lives matter, but right now we are talking about black lives cause they are the ones hurting. Woman are the overwhelming majority of sexual abuse victims. We are talking about them right now. I say this as a male who was a victim of abuse by an older woman.
Talking about it is never a problem, but a sign that says “always a man” is factually wrong and invisibilising, it is more harmful than helpful. It’s right to point it out, I think
This doesn’t quite work. In fact, I think it’s the opposite.
The way I heard it described, which really drove the point home, was that imagine you are at a table and the food is being passed around. Every time it gets to you, the food is passed right past you. Everyone has a full plate except you. You say “hey, I deserve my fair share!” and then some jamoke says “we all deserve our fair share.” It’s missing the point, because you currently aren’t getting your fair share, and your unique plight is being ignored.
The sign in the case here is diminishing the fact that there are victims of females. They aren’t saying “women are unique victims” here, they are saying “men are unique perpetrators.”
Without the sign, this conversation doesn’t happen. You should be on the side of everyone else here and should be saying “hey, keep your misandry to yourself, this is about female victims” but instead you’re arguing “we should just let blatant misandry slide right now because we are talking about a female victim of a man.” It would be like (as I said in another post) letting blatant racism in a protest slide because the perpetrator was black and the victim was white.
It’s not the story in general, it’s the “but always a man” that’s objectionable.
This 100%. If men being raped is such a massive issue to yall, make your own protest about it, don’t shit on the protests of marginalized people bc they’re fighting for their own rights and not yours
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I think I would have more sympathy with those focusing on the “not all men but always a man” sign if this weren’t in the context of a woman being drugged by her husband and then said husband inviting about 50 random men to rape her, over 10 years.
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
I agree with you. Yes, this is not the time nor the place to go full on men’s rights activism, 100% correct.
But if someone tells a rape victim his experience does not account because he part of the 4%, then nobody won anything at all, and I will speak my mind about such a heinous statement, the same way I will speak my mind about any one telling Woman shit like “It happened bc you dressed so seductive”, "You sure he heard you saying No?"etc etc. .
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
Agreed. Unfortunately there’s always gonna be a whataboutism as long as men feel unheard…
People can lose empathy when they think the world is ignoring them. It’s taken me years to move on from people telling me to “man up” or “get over it” about my SA.
I really hope that at some point male victims of sexual assault will work to create a movement of support. It’s not ok that y’all get told to man up, and it’s not ok that y’all are often used as a way to shut down discussions of sexual violence against women.
Absolutely agreed.
Something I used to hear regarding feminism was that it also fought for men’s rights even if indirectly for equality purposes. While I wouldn’t say it’s accurate of the movement now, I will say that it’d be a nice thing for men’s rights groups to pick up. If these movements want to be heard then they must be willing to listen to the voices of women and be willing to bring their own to justice.
Yo, feminists have been leading the charge on shit like paternity leave (FMLA was feminists), battered men’s shelters (now there’s four! In the country!) and getting equality of rulings on spousal abuse or visitation rights. Don’t buy into the alt-right BS about how the movement used to be good but now it’s just full of all those self-centered women, and I only hate the current version. It’s a really common line, and it’s bullshit.
I’ll be completely honest: I don’t really know which organizations/movements are doing what these days. There’s too much to keep track of. The groups where I am aren’t particularly kind though. That’s coming from my knowledge of an experience with a family member’s divorce, so I apologize for being misinformed.
I just do what I think is right. It’s all I have energy for.
As a modern feminist I think that’s one of the differences between the third and fourth waves. The third wave (and early second wave) had a strong emphasis on “feminism is for everyone” and was much more “theory based” if that makes sense. The fourth wave is generally understood to be defined by the era of mass social media. It’s been hardened by things like gamergate, the me too movement, and the rabid opposition to the third wave by reactionary men refusing to accept that it was the most pro man wave feminism saw. I don’t think it’s tactically wise or theoretically sound, but I get and feel the anger. That said I’m generally more pro third wave as a whole, including thinking bell hooks really understood how patriarchy negatively impacts men.
But yeah, modern feminist culture is jaded and angry, and for good reason. And I do agree that a men’s movement to deal with y’all’s issues would be incredibly helpful so long as you’re able to keep the reactionary voices out of it. Because from this woman’s perspective, a lot of men really need to develop friendships based on mutual care and understanding. Women can’t fix the malaise men are currently showing, and reactionaries can only make it worse.
50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.
Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:
How can we fix this when the government keeps protecting the real rapists: minorities
Husband aside, that’s 50 separate people who thought this was okay. Ffs
Allegedly, they didn’t. Multiple men were contacted through a swingers website, and allegedly led to believe she was a willing participant pretending to be asleep, instead of what she really was, the victim of a disgusting monster, drugged and undressed without her knowledge, for the pleasure of a sick monster.
To the point where one of her abusers, fully aware of what he did, wrote to her to apologize from jail, realizing what he had done under false pretenses, and aware that by not doing his due diligence, he raped her in the literal sense of the word.
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This is making me really angry. They knowingly and willingly had sex with her without getting her consent because they didn’t believe it was important enough. They had no problem with someone else speaking for her. This is part of what she is trying to bring attention to and you are pretending these men are victims. I am disgusted. Due diligence? Really? This is rape not a fucking business transaction. The fact that they could be so careless about her bodily autonomy and need no consent from her is damning of them and of you for defending them. Fuck everything about this.
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I would hope that one that would be interested in this type of stuff would be meeting the affected party first :/
So would I, and I also wish nobody did meth. A lot of dangerous things have been normalized by many people, to the point where they get so used to them, that they seem normal and relatively harmless to them, only because their “normal” is so fucking far from the socially acceptable normal.
Because he said it was their kink to them.
Terrible fucking sign and tone deaf af
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I’m not one of them, but the problem is the sign in the thumbnail. Without that I doubt it would’ve upset as many people.
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Nah lol I literally would be in here in full support without the sign, but with the sign I am reminded that even though I have been raped by two different women, not only am I seen as a horrid abuser for the crime of having been born with a penis, the women who raped me are seen as victims for the virtue of having a vagina. Erasing male victims and woman perpetrators in one fell swoop really isn’t a good look, it makes the issue gendered rather than about abusers V victims, and then to turn it around and claim that men are making it “all about us” as if the sign didn’t lead us there in the first place is some A+ victim blaming.
If women don’t like that the conversation becomes about male victims in response to their erasure of male victims (and in this case woman perpetrators), then women should start speaking up for ALL victims instead of erasing us, regardless of how insignificant they think we are ignoring us is hurting OUR cause, yes “ours:” victims’ regardless of gender.
“yea I’d like this protest, but there’s literally one sign that offends me and they didn’t chant my name so fuck them all” you’re a piece of work omg xD
No u lmao, you literally are trying to silence victims of rape as we speak and you think I’m the piece of work? You having a stroke or something?
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Then put that on the sign, not “always men” ffs. The sign is a lie and a problem and the fact that you can’t see that means you’re part of that problem.
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To be quite frank, the vast majority of sexual violence against women is perpetrated by men. The vast majority of all sexual violence is against women.
Oh thank you for clarifying why you think me being raped is insignificant and doesn’t matter. Wanna go for the rest of the hits while we’re here? “You must have enjoyed it because you’re a man” and “she was hot you should consider yourself lucky,” or who could forget the classic “get over it pussy?”
Fine, if there’s nothing left to say, then say nothing. That’ll be better than what you’ve been doing.
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Just say you don’t care about men and you’re sexist. Would be way easier for you
I didn’t even look at the thumbnail. I’m a man btw. If I had to rewrite that sign it might say ‘NOT ALL MEN - JUST TOO MANY’. Or, I dunno, something like that.
I kinda feel like, for blokes there are two important things we can do. Aside from stop having arguments about who’s the bigger victim (it’s women). First is just don’t do that shit. Just don’t. It’s actually easy and rewarding to not be a bad person. Second is don’t let any other guys get away with even talking like that. Even if they’re mates, step the fuck up and let them know that talk is not okay. Let’s be honest, many of us have heard our mates talk about women in a way we weren’t quite comfy with and afterwards thought we should have said something. Say something.
If she held up a sign holding “all gays should die” would that be enough to talk about? A protest for a good cause is not a free pass to spread untruths. There are some men in this thread who were actually raped and you rail against them for sharing their story. The trial still goes on, it’s not like people here are in favor of the rapists?
To use your inflammatory language: it’s unbelievably stupid and fragile to believe you get to direct the contents of the topic. Let the adults talk
Imagine I’m selling a nice camera tripod but in the commercial people are beating each other to death with it. You walk into a Lemmy post about it and people are only talking about the ridiculous commercial. You gonna stand up and be like “Why isn’t anyone talking about the product!?” like that’s the real topic?
We’re not in here talking about what happened. We’re talking about the news. The news is saying my half of the population is bad because of their story which I’m half a world away from and have no reason to believe.
terminally online men try not to take a picture of a random sign in an otherwise unrelated article personally challenge (impossible)
Reading is fucking hard I guess
