cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/10882099
Thankfully I don’t use any of their products, but this really pisses me off. They claim that this open source project “causes significant economic harm to their company”
This is ridiculous. It is truly ridiculous. How can something that enables the user to efficiently control their AC cause “significant economic harm”???
Consider forking the repository or mirroring it to another platform like GitLab, Codeberg or your self-hosted Git server, so the project can continue to exist and someone can maybe fork it and maintain it.
The effected repos are: https://github.com/Andre0512/hOn and https://github.com/Andre0512/pyhOn
If you don’t know about Home Assistant, check it out. It’s an amazing piece of open-source software, that you can run at home on your own server and use it to control your smart home devices. That way, you don’t need to connect them to the manufacturer’s (probably insecure) cloud. It gives you sovereignty over your smart home instead of some proprietary vendor-locked garbage. Check out their website and the Lemmy community: !homeassistant@lemmy.world
I also highly recommend Louis Rossmann’s video about this: https://youtu.be/RcSnd3cyti0
He makes awesome videos in general, consider subscribing.
As Rossmann said, don’t ever buy anything from such a shitty company that doesn’t respect their customers. This move by Haier is nothing other than a slap in the face for everyone, who just wants to comfortably control the product they paid for. This company is actively hostile towards their paying customers. Fuck these bastards!
The developer commented the following:
Luckily I’m insured. I’ve contacted my legal expenses insurance and they’re covering a lawyer for the case. I will seek advice and see how an expert assesses the situation and then proceed.
Tldr, They are going to fight this!
Source: https://github.com/Andre0512/hon/issues/147#issuecomment-1892738060
What sort of insurance is that and do I need to get some?
The developer is German, in Germany it’s pretty common to have a Rechtsschutzversicherung. You pay them monthly or yearly and in exchange you can request legal advice from one of their lawyers af any time. It’s pretty neat.
Wow, and it is a real lawyer? I e had employers with benefits that sound similar but I think only get things like templates for common documents like wills and contracts that you can get anywhere, or “free” co suits like you can get anywhere.
I actually do phage a upcoming minor legal need this year, and they couldn’t even tell me , using that as an example, what would the benefit cover?
Yes, typically you get to talk to real lawyers. They may not be the best lawyers on the planet, but if you just need some advice, you should be perfectly fine.
In America I just use my buddy Carl. He’s also my doctor.
Germany sounds ridiculous with how many insurances you have to waste money and time on.
Imagine being American and not even having health insurance
Imagine being American, having quite expensive health insurance, then discovering your insurance doesn’t cover any of your basic healthcare needs.
And then you can’t afford a lawyer to fight them on it.
Good thing I’m Australian.
Imagine being Australian
It’s heaps sick eh.
You don’t have to, but if you do you may have the ability to stand up against a company trying to shut down your open source project…
Or you could just hire a consultant when you need it?
$200 once in your life vs 396 a year, is kinda a no brainer situation.
You do realize a consultation is just the first step, right? If he wants to fight this he’ll need quite a bit more than 200
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Not getting the downvotes, a lot of those are quite stupid. The Rechtsschutz is basically required if you drive for example, only because of game theory, not because it actually brings anything
It’s just reddit group think, sadly we didn’t leave that behind.
I’ve got them disabled on my instance anyway so I don’t even see it. As far as I know everyone likes my posts because I only see upvotes.
It’s pretty common for freelance developers to have insurance like this - if I screw up and you get ransonwared, insurance pays for a lawyer to explain the contracts indemnity clause to you using small words
But what if I saved money not talking to a lawyer and never had the client sign an indemnity?
Then don’t screw up
If you have already screwed up, you now get to play The Game of Litigation, where their lawyers try to prove that you are liable for billions of dollars in damages, and your lawyer tries to prove that you aren’t. The way the game works is whoever spends the most on lawyers wins. You’ve got more cash to spend than your clients right?
Not sure if it’s really the freelance/professional thing others mentioned. Private legal expense insurance (Rechtsschutzversicherung) is fairly common in Germany, so might just be that.
Most home insurers in Western Europe provide with the coverage additional legal counsel / coverage in case someone claims we are liable for anything non motor related. And house insurance itself costs just a couple hundreds a year.
Most professions where action/inaction can result in damages will have similar insurance. Some insurance firms even specialize in coverage for professionals.
If your profession has an association or similar group, they should be able to help you find those firms if they exist.
my job has one for about ten bucks a month for employees. covers any need. estate planning, divorce, whatever.
My guess is someone saw what was being built and said “hey, we can build something similar and sell it”, hence the C&D.
Still a ridiculous move. If I buy an appliance, I pay for it and I own it. I am allowed to do with it whatever I want. If I want to use my own solution for controlling it, hosted on my own server, I should have every right to do so. Fuck corporations and their shitty cloud solutions.
To be clear, I think the company are idiotic in the way they handled this, but I guess the integration probably hooked into the company’s cloud-based services - so their servers.
Bad enough if a air conditioner needs cloud access for smart functions and doesn’t have a local api.
I don’t disagree.
Absolutely. I’ll never buy a device like that if I can’t use a local API! I have no IoT devices and refuse, because they sketch me out.
I was this way, then got into home assistant and esphome. Now I have iot things like thermostats, garage door openers, air compressor controller, and know exactly how they work and where their data goes. And none of it leaves it’s own network (separate vlan).
The Apple iOS method. See a great app or product on your platform. If they won’t sell it or want to much Apple just makes their own version and prohibits the original.
This is actually a thing and is called Sherlocking: https://thehustle.co/sherlocking-explained/
Apple is so notorious at doing this, it’s not even funny anymore. The article didn’t mention these two famous sherlocking cases though:
Except instead of something similar, it’s always something way, way worse.
The EU really needs to start doing something about this kind of shit.
The US does too, but fat chance of that happening.
When asked for a statement, the company answered “Yes we’re idiots, and wanted everyone to know”
@SharkAttak @Dehydrated way to ensure all internet searches on your brand deliver a “not compatible with stuff” impression to all prospective customers.
Sadly, I know them as one company that makes dirt cheap TVs, so they’ll still keep making money.
Cheaper than TCL?
Eh, same tier, I think.
How accessible are the WiFi and IR chips inside their TVs? I haven’t tried TCL yet
Honestly I don’t know, why do you ask?
If I buy such a TV, those are the first things I will remove.
Mmh I understand since I activated Wifi only when I really needed it, but I think you need infrared for the remote.
Isn’t there a way to control a Kodi box, including TV controls like volume and brightness through it? If not, I’ll have to consider keeping the IR sensor (which I wouldn’t want to do in ideal circumstances).
I almost certain you’re being sarcastic, but please tell me I’m wrong. If that quote is actually true, that would be fucking hilarious!
I extrapolated and condensed based on the company actions.
Better yet, make an example out of Haier. Prove to companies everywhere that allowing open source compatibility can only be good for them.
Let’s prove to companies that hostility towards open source can be really bad for them
I literally buy based off Home Assistant support. If it needs to be smart and it’s not supported by home assistant it’s not coming in the house.
I was planning to replace a lot of my white goods this year.
This move has 100% eliminated Haier from any of my decisions.Make sure to check all of Haier’s subsidies. GE is one of them.
That’s the same company that has this on their ‘about us’ page:
“Haier company history: since its creation in 1984, the company has been run by the same CEO, Zhang Ruimin, who has always had a clear objective: to build high-quality, reliable products. Within the first year of his appointment, in response to complaints about faulty fridges, his radical action of smashing the fridges with a hammer in front of employees has been recognised as an important cornerstone of the brand.”
I call hypocrisy!
How long until they start banning you from using thermostats made by other companies
GitHub also has a legal defense fund for developers. GitHub lists it on their DMCA takedown page.
When GitHub processes a DMCA takedown under our circumvention technology claim review process, we will offer the repository owner a referral to receive independent legal consultation through GitHub’s Developer Defense Fund at no cost to them.
They created this fund after claims were made against a YouTube downloader from a third party. (not Google)
I don’t know if this would be an anti-circumvention claim, but it doesn’t sound like a bad idea to ask.
I’d like to thank Haier for their transparency. ♥️
Don’t discount the economic loss they experience from not being able to harvest and sell your data (even possible in the EU, though harder of course)
Well that’s even worse and it’s the reason we need local, self-hosted open source alternatives like Home Assistant.
Hard agree
I sent them a nasty gram from their contacts page. I don’t own anything from them right now but you can damn well bet I will avoid them if when/if it comes up.
I pointed them to Louis’ video also
I assume a zero chance of any purchases is a larger economic hit than allowing a small diy community to interact with their PURCHASED and OWNED product.
I didn’t go nasty, but did do my bit to point out how short sighted this move was:
I just wanted to say that your silly take down notice on the Home Assistant developer, who was enabling greater satisfaction for customers who bought your products, was a perfect example of the Streisand effect in action: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
Thanks to you, I (who didn’t own - and now probably never will - any of your products), am not only aware of your silly, unethical, and pointless behaviour, but have now taken steps to preserve the developer’s code for future use.
You could’ve fostered this innovation, and gained yourselves the admiration of global, active and thriving community of like-minded people. And potentially gained more paying customers in the process.
Instead, you have achieved the opposite. Well done.
It won’t make a lick of difference, but hopefully they get the same sentiment enough times that they at least understand what a fuck-up this was, on their part.
Edit: at least I know they got it
Nasty was probably strong word. I mostly expressed my disappointment and that I would steer clear going forward. And that would have a stronger economic impact on their bottom dollar.
Yeah - they need to hear this a lot. They could absolutely have taken a little time to understand what need the dev was filling here. Ultimately, this could’ve been a free kick for them, had they handled it the right way.
I’ve just done the same thing, said I don’t own any of their products but I certainly won’t be buying them in the future and I will be actively discouraging people from buying their products, which will actually hurt their profits, and also put a snide little PS at the bottom saying "Good luck issuing cease and desist notices to the hundreds of forks of the software (803 so far according to another post) which will cost you real money instead of the made up MILLIONS OF DOLLARS that you claim this is open source software is costing you. It’s companies like you that make buying consumer electronics a quagmire
I am in no way defending their behavior, but API calls will always incur some cost - either in backend resource consumption with “paying” customers, or legitimate costs if they’re relying on AWS infrastructure.
However, like the whole reddit debacle, API usage isn’t always well optimized at the client end, and it can become a negotiation rather than a C&D…unless you’re looking to make a competitor as well.
A few thoughts come to mind… 1) Some of their customers may only be customers because of HA compatibility. 2) HA does not require a cloud API to function - a LAN based solution is usually preferred anyway. 3) There are far more diplomatic ways to approach this issue.
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To think, from a business perspective, that any notable portion of their userbase bought the devices with the explicit expectation that it would work with HA would be naive. We’re hobbyists, a niche market, the less-than-1% of their market evaluations. Losing those customers while reducing whatever burden or cost they’re incurring is probably worth it.
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HA doesn’t - but while I don’t have any Haier equipment to say, the other smart devices in my house which aren’t either esphome or tasmota don’t connect locally to my devices, but to the vendor cloud API. Ecobee, Wyze, Traeger all do that instead.
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Totally agreed. I think AWS API costs are a few cents to the thousand, so a discussion with the developer about the use would be the nice way instead of just kowtowing to the bean counters.
My argument to that would be if we are only a niche segment then where is the serious economic harm they are referring to? It sounds to me like API calls are happening either way but they don’t want to lose out on the ad and customer tracking revenue. Also, I as other have pointed out there is no reason it needs a remote cloud to change the thermostat.
It could be a case of disproportionate impact - consider that forecasting within Haier for their cloud API would probably be based upon X number of units in the field and Y number of average API calls per unit/user/premises. At 40,000 units in the field at 1000 calls per day (which they know because they designed the software, or at least had a hand in resourcing discussions), you have 40,000,000 calls per day.
If you have some third party app which is generating 4,000,000 calls by itself, and you see only 400 users doing this, then it’s a simple high usage target to hit.
Ad revenue, maybe. Tracking is still possible because it’s the same device, and if there’s any security at all, they’ll still have all the native API stuff they’d normally get, temperatures, weather, occupancy, etc.
I will say at a brief glance at the repo for the project that there’s some calls which imply it would get the local IP for the device, and may from there be able to issue calls direct to the device. That would make me think there’s only a few calls to their cloud to establish a relationship and product info, so the disproportionate load theory, barring bugs, doesn’t hold up. While it’s been a good brain exercise, we’ll be left guessing, and hoping Haier decides to be better.
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Any idea what the consequence is if the author instead transferred ownership entirely to an owner based in a country that would give no fucks about a lawsuit? Sure, the OG owner loses the project but would he avoid culpability?
Anyone that wants to take the legal heat can just fork the projects and continue hosting it. I don’t blame the original developer for not wanting to deal with it, even if the legal threat sounds very ridiculous (a project like this would be the opposite of financial harm, how many of us check if something works with home assistant before buying a device?).
In this case the owner actually has legal insurance and is fighting it.
Oh ok, so he’s taking it down temporarily while he’s going through the legal process?
Apparently
Kinda like how VLC is based out of France because there’s no software patents?
Software cannot be patented anywhere. What is patented are the algorithm. In France algorithm are considered maths and cannot be patented.
Is there a list of these takedowns? I know Mazda NA is another company that has killed a HA integration.
I haven’t seen such a list. But GitHub maintains a repo at https://github.com/github/dmca with all the DMCA notices they receive. And also, fuck Mazda as well for taking down innocent FOSS projects. Simply for this reason, I’m never buying any of their cars. There are enough other car makers on the market.
Alright. Let’s get the ratgdo guy on this. I’d pre-order a rathvac today.
