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- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- technology@lemmy.zip
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That’s data laundering
Damn you! Angry upvote.
I applaud your clean laundry pun.
Why would you connect your washing machine to WiFi in the first place? Like legitimate question.
Because water is held in cloud storage
::slow clap::
Well played, friend. Well played.
To get notifications when your laundry is done.
As someone with adhd, I could see it being super helpful for me.
My dryer is as dumb as they come. It just beeps like a motherfucker until I open the door, which is pretty effective.
See, mine makes absolutely zero noise when done, which isn’t a good thing for me. But, I’d be more likely to build my own smart system (probably a flow sensor on the drain).
Or light sensor, monitoring machine’s lights.
I’ve found vibration sensing to be the easiest.
My ‘smart’ LG washer/dryer plays a jaunty little tune when done. Even on max volume it’s difficult to hear. I miss my old dumb machines.
Fair point, I didn’t think of that. Any IoT device gets put in the “naughty” vlan and 99% of their outgoing requests goes straight to /Dev/null
I do the same thing. All they’re allowed to talk to is Home Assistant except for when I allow internet access to update firmware.
I need to set up my VLANs 🥺
Its saved my skin once when my retard cousin connected his malware infected laptop to my “I domt control this device” network. Only other thing on the network was my work laptop that has a ton of security on it. More than I even have on my stuff. So it lit up like a Christmas tree and commited suicide. Get a ping from my boss asking what the fuck I downloaded lmao.
You’re making me wanna cry. I need this in my life!
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My ISP router can do vlan mate.
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Why are you so bitter? Chill out.
Ubiquiti ERX $59.
Consumer grade Netgear routers support VLANs.
An alarm could likely help you accomplish the same thing without the wifi-connected washing machine.
Whatever works for you works for you, though.
Likely an alarm needs to be set every time, a notification of finished load is likely automatic.
Yup, I have alarms in my phone for this. Adhd means I’ll forget to set that alarm most of the time.
An alarm could likely help you accomplish the same thing without the wifi-connected washing machine.
This is only true if every load takes exactly the same amount of time. Modern machines have more sensors to adjust things like water level and spin times. Very often now I start my washer and the time will drop from 1 hour depending on how much is in the machine.
Plus, the alarm is easy to dismiss and forget about. An actual notification on my phone isn’t.
Well, you don’t necessarily need to deal with the laundry the second the machine is ready - if you merely set the alarm to be the approximate maximum time, you’re probably going to be fine with the laundry spending half an hour or so sitting wet in the machine.
If the alarm is easy to dismiss, then perhaps a reminder app could be of use. I frequently use Google Tasks with a time for the tasks to cope with everyday life, which sends a notification at the specified time.
I have an lg machine with notifications… it’s very helpful.
We have two young kids, laundry is constant.
Reminders to run the tub wash cycle are helpful, or when airflow is bad, etc
FWIW I accomplish this with a zigbee outlet on the washer and dryer (dryer is gas, so it’s not a 50a circuit). It has stats on power consumption and I have a home assistant sensor set up so that when it drops below a threshold for a period of time, it counts the washer/dryer as off and notifies me.
Only works if you can start a cycle on power on. My machine will just sit there waiting for someone to press the go button.
I don’t actually use it to control anything, though I have in the past had an automation to turn off the dryer because GE is total crap and the sound on/off button busted, but the sound is super annoying. But anyway yeah, I’m actually only using these outlets for their sensors to decide if the machines are on or off.
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Doesn’t have to be connected to the cloud for that, except if you do your laundry when you’re not home.
For the way modern stuff works, it does. If you want notifications that don’t chew through battery life on Android or notifications at all on iOS, then it needs to go through the respective notification services.
We /could/ design ways that this wouldn’t be an issue and entirely local push notifications could be a thing. But it’s not how your devices work today.
Three letter agencies want to read your notifications so we have to have a centralised service
Ah ben tabarnak.
Its a good reason to allow wifi but there is no reason for you to receive such a notification unless your home to act on it, otherwise your better of receiving the notification once your phone reconnect with your homes wifi.
Wifi isnt the same as internet.
There is sometimes but rarely a good reason for those same decides to connect to the public web. They are much more secure if everything stays local.
The prime reason companies claim they need internet so you can set up things like stop heat when i am not home…. But guess what, if my phone isnt activity at home connecting to wifi, my home server can figure it out on its own, no cloud required.
So I actually have one that does.
I get notifications when laundry is done.
I get a notification when I need to do routine maintenance like change filters, or refill the detergent. (It has a built-in jug and dispenser) I can send it settings via the app, which is easier than via the built in controls. (It has things like extra rinse, wash times for different rinses, and steaming and stuff). It’s not impossible to do via the interface, but it’s a bit easier via the phone.The one I had also sent me a notification if the clothes were too humid after the drying cycle, so I could add more minutes to it. That was a Samsung tho
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It was an ECO mode, most of the time it was enough, but sometimes you need the real power. I guess it didn’t do itself because it would consume more power
I liked the connected features but now that I use a “dumb” washer and a dryer I don’t really miss them
Joke Answer: Just ask Pied Piper about their fridges.
Non-Joke Answer:
Not personally owned washers of course:
I live in a set of apartments and we have a laundry room and the quarter slots have been removed entirely and now you have to pay for your laundry with an app and Bluetooth.
In other words, it could be fucking worse and you might not have a choice because your landlords don’t give a shit about poor people (who may not have a device capable of running the app).
EDIT: The bonus? The notifications on when your laundry is done don’t even work properly and are consistently wrong. I still just set a timer.
Thats wild. We had laundry cards.
I’d be ripping that app apart and patching it to skip the payment step.
They make you make an account tied to your email, and it authenticates your account each time it connects. I’ve already done a teensy bit of network peeking at it, but I’m not savvy enough to try to be bypassing authentication.
You mentioned it was using Bluetooth to communicate with the actual machine so I’m assuming they are not directly connected to the internet in any way? If that’s correct then it’s just a case of understanding the Bluetooth comms which is probably some basic BLE stuff they put together by tweaking the sample code from the BLE chip manufacturer.
I have an LG washer/dryer. With the app you can add downloaded cycle programs. And you can just have one at the time, and there are two cycles I sometimes swap between. It also gives me a notice when it needs to be cleaned and it has smart diagnostics when something goes wrong. And of course delayed start via app and notification when the wash is done. So there are some benefits, but I still hate it
Those do sound useful. Hook it up to home assistant and send all its external requests to the DNS void.
I have mine in hass… the integration is cloud dependant.
Edit: The stuff I can do in with it in HASS is great though. I can only hope that someone figures out how to skip the cloud requirement all together like they did with some other stuff that I use.
Home assistant usually doesn’t work as a backend for smart appliances like that, just as a frontend that connects to the same stuff that your smartphone app connects to. It communicates with the appliance through the original cloud service, so you can’t take it entirely offline.
Not that this covers many cases, but a lot of appliances are running touch screens and a lack of non-visual indicators. Blind people could benefit from having an app with a screen reader to run the machine. Of course, this is just a patch for a problem which shouldn’t have existed in the first place.
Legitimately, I want one exclusively so I can get told the wash is done and then I can put it on for an extra spin all from the pub round the corner from my house and then arrive home just as it’s finishing
I don’t have a wifi active washing machine, but I have a dryer on wifi, and to answer your question, I have ADHD and frequently forget there’s even laundry. Like as a concept.
So I turned on my dryer’s wifi and now when it’s done, I get a notification. Which allows me to come downstairs and fold what’s in there (and put the stuff from the washer into the dryer).
Before I would turn on the dryer (and washer) and then have go wash clothes again because they went sour on me. So wasteful! Made me ashamed! Hopefully I won’t go blind to dryer notifications…
So I never would have bothered. We built a new house and the set we got came with Wi-Fi (not a feature I cared about) and it was actually really helpful to have notifications. I have a family and kids and they don’t always watch when things are done. So now I can catch when cycles are done as sensor cycles can be highly variable.
So you can get a notification when it’s done, I imagine.
Is it compatible with Home Assistant? Then maybe.
This sounds like some kind of DDOS attack like the ones that involved connected light bulbs. Malware gets into the light bulb or washing machine and repurposes the infected device to flood targeted servers:
Obligatory meme wisdom:
https://biggaybunny.tumblr.com/post/166787080920/tech-enthusiasts-everything-in-my-house-is-wired
I have an LG washer and dryer on my IoT VLAN and funneled through a pi hole. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how quiet and well behaved they are on my network. Hardly ever phone home and only connect to one or two domains. Something is seriously wrong with his dudes washer.
The most noisy devices on my network are my smart TVs. The last time I bothered to look, it wasn’t even close to comparable.
My phone is my most used device. It had something in the ballpark of 800 blocked requests in a day, after an entire day of doomscrolling and heavy use. It was the third most blocked device on my network, behind both of my smart TVs. The “better” TV had ~2400 blocked requests in that same day. The worse one had nearly 3000.
I hadn’t even used my TVs that day.
some software keeps resending requests when they don’t go through, so if you didn’t block them, the number could’ve been much, much lower.
of course it’s stupid and fuck that, but still.
Roku enabled by chance? I have 2 of them plugged in on my IOT space and have 54K blocks to scribe.logs.roku.com in the past 30 days.
Either that or it’s mining crypto
Crypto mining would be symmetrical up/down though. This is only a small amount of data downloaded, and a huge amount uploaded. That looks more like a botnet attack, where an attacker hacked the machine and pointed it at a target, then just left it to run.
Imagine the poor bastard who gets arrested for their washing machine ddos’ing people.
In and out is not high in crypto mining. It’s mostly a cpu/power hog.
Just like a parasyte lol
That’s a pretty silly headline for an article that quite clearly states that the issue was with the router’s data usage reporting capabilities.
They suspect, but it’s hardly clear cut
Should be something that you rule out long before blaming LG…
Smart devices are great, but if it’s not Zigbee or Zwave and Home Assistant, it can fuck off.
I like my devices to be dumb but be able to function without internet.
What do Zigbee and Swave do better than others? Btw Tasmota is cool too
Zigbee and zwave are fully local. They can’t decide to phone home over the protocols without your consent. The hubs can if they are wifi connected but that’s a different issue.
Anything on a network, be it wifi or Ethernet, can (attempt to) phone home without any use intervention, and without a wifi connected hub.
Believe it or not, you can set up wifi or ethernet in your home without any access to the internet.
Yes, and you can also set up plumbing without connecting it to a water source. It’s just not the norm.
Though I admit it’s more likely to have a segregated network than plumbing without water.
They cannot access the internet because they need a bridge to work. The bridge can be open source software like Zigbee2MQTT.
I’m a little new to this stuff myself, but basically those devices are robust enough to get the job done but also simple enough that they don’t do anything else. I have Z-Wave for my shades, a temperature/humidity sensor, a tilt sensor for my garage door, a relay for the opener, and a light switch/scene controller for some physical button shortcuts. Very different things, and I don’t need an app from each manufacturer. Each device also creates a mesh network with one another, so these devices can have a pretty low-power, low overhead radio for battery life and still work pretty well even if you’re reaching far away from your hub.
I haven’t used Zigbee but I understand it works pretty similarly. They seem to have some pretty cheap scene controllers so I was thinking of getting on that bandwagon (my shades were Z-Wave and that’s what got me into this rabbit hole so I’ve been using that to start)
Also, an honorable mention for TP-Link’s Kasa series. Hardware is pretty solid and while I do need their app to get a device going, it’s made pretty well and integrates nicely to Home Assistant. Now if only they’ll put out that fan controller they announced a year ago and haven’t given a meaningful update over since!
Zwave chips are all made by one company, and the old ones can’t be updated against a newer vulnerability.
But each to their own
Picturing Paul Hibbard looking at you in a way that says “hate yourself too, eh?”
I don’t understand the craze of slapping wifi or bluetooth connectivity to everything without giving proper thought. Cameras, television, vehicles, coffee pots, medical devices, laundry machines, hipster juicers… what’s next? Is my salt shaker going to have it?
That’s a great idea! You can check your salt levels while at work or on vacation. You could even have your salt shaker automatically order more salt from Amazon when the level got too low. Or how about you program your maximum daily salt intake so it closes up when it’s reached.
So much potential!
Not even a little far-fetched
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Every washing machine I’ve owned for the last 30 years has had a delayed start function and I’ve never used it once, if that simple function is useless I donno what else a WiFi connection could offer
Delayed start, but from your phone, via their totally-not-tracking-infested app. That’s why it needs wifi.
Not sure if I need the /s but here it is just to be sure.
Notify you when a cycle is done, but you could do that with a vibration sensor over zigbee and home assistant, or an outlet power monitor.
People simply don’t understand there are other low-band wireless local communication protocols other than wifi and maybe IR, and that is completely taken advantage of by companies who deal in user data.
That’s so odd to me, too. I’m notified when the buzzer goes off. I would hear the buzzer before I heard my phone.
And who needs to be notified immediately when a cycle is done? I’m lucky if my laundry doesn’t sit there for hours after I’ve heard the buzzer and said to myself, I should do that laundry.
I do use the timer delay to run the wash cycle when the power is cheap. I’d really like it if I could set it as “ready to go” and something else give it the “go” when the power is cheap.
Once I have that, it’s also useful to have something to tell me there’s wet washing that needs to be unloaded.
If my washing machine was older I could do all of this with a remote power switch and sensor, but because my washing machine has touch buttons instead of click/clacks, I can’t. Turning the power on just makes it wait for a button press.
Ok setting the delay for off peak electricity actually does make a bit of sense
I had a WiFi enabled range and the only remotely useful thing it could do was send my phone a notification when the timer went off.
It could preheat the oven via the app too but I wasn’t too keen on turning on my oven when I wasn’t near it.
I have a wifi enabled AC unit. It also has a remote control.
No, I have never used wifi to control it. Why would I? It has a remote control.
And the bad part is that it is being forced upon us. You can’t even find non-smart TVs to buy anymore.
I wouldn’t be surprised if appliances come with their own data plan, because the data they collect is valuable.
Something something “the internet of things is the future”…
I’ve been looking for a breast pump recently - I’d like electric so I don’t have to manually pump. All of the ones I could find in the shop required an app to connect to the device. Why? What purpose does that serve me? I’d have to make an account, accept needless permissions and cookies and give them access to very personal data about my boobs and milk production - I went with a manual one instead
Any device that requires an app to function is an immediate deal breaker for me. Same for most things that require “the cloud” to work. Garage door openers, doorbell or other cameras, cooking appliances, door locks, cars, even a basic pedometer to name a few. All of these things will only work temporarily until the company decides it’s end of life for any reason.
Yes, that’s another reason. I’m reliant on the app for the device to function - if they stop supporting it, the company goes bankrupt, my wifi cuts out - I now have a very expensive piece of plastic.
The spectra is both the highest rated and it doesn’t use an app. We have the one with the battery and it is so so convenient and easy to use.
Thanks for the recommendation
It could be a cost issue. A chip that collects data from connected sensors and sends it via Wifi is small and cheap. Adding a display and buttons ads size, complexitiy and costs. Therefore manufacturers offload the interface to an app and a device you already own, and they can update without expensive recalls.
If the task or device is more complicated and the device would also need it’s own storage, CPU, display, sound etc. the product costs could go up by hundreds of dollars, depending on functionality and how many units they plan to ship.
I also hate apps. Still have my 2010 smartphone in a drawer that still turns on, however it;s useless because google playstore, maps and email now used an more modern SSL standard that this phone does not support anymore, and it won’t receive any updates. I expect the same will happen to a lot of devices that are controlled by apps when the manufacturer decides he won’t support it anymore, or Google breaks the app because some new protocol must be supported now that didn’t exist 2 years ago when the app came out.
Lets not pretend that it isn’t about data collection though. If they cared about protecting my data, they’d spend a little more money and either make 0.1% less profit or pass the cost onto the consumer
Have you checked out Medela, we used one of those a couple years back and there was no app involved. No data collection, just plug it in and go.
Thanks for the recommendation
I’m guessing so the Republicans can punish you for being reproductive in an unapproved way? Is why they require attaching to the internet?
Fortunately I’m not in the US so I actually have reproductive rights
It’s possible that it had some vulnerability which was automatically exploited by one of her majesty’s secret services (perhaps with help from their US counterparts) to make it a component of their covert infrastructure.
Or quite simply, hackers scanning for unsecured devices that access the internet and using them to do shit.
Listen to Darknet Diaries -> Start fearing everything
Jesus fucking Christ.
Do not buy BS internet connected devices period. There was a time when internet connected devices did exactly they were supposed to do and nothing more. There is literally no reason why most of these devices can’t act as their own server and keep your data local and private. Corporations have become far too greedy to trust their cloud won’t sell you out in every way it can. The ONLY two reasons a manufacturer adds internet connectivity are:
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To monitor and collect as much data as possible and/or:
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To implement a subscription service for something that normally wouldn’t require monthly payments.
Corporate closed clouds have proven time and time again that they can’t be trusted.
There is literally no reason why most of these devices can’t act as their own server
As much as I dislike cloud stuff. The cloud is by far the easiest solution for support and average users.
Your not dealing with end users calling in and having to diagnose why two devices on their network are not talking to each other.
As long as both your devices have Internet it will work.
I do home automation… And no, its not…
They do it because everyone wants to control these appliances when away from home. And port forwarding isn’t an awesome idea honestly.
A lot of the devices we used to port forward honestly, ended up getting hacked because of out of date firmware or whatever
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My heat pump can be controlled by an app but it all goes through an external web page for some reason so I noped out of it.
Yeah, when I bought mine I saw to it, that it had a local API. That’s a buying requirement by now.
Check yours, often they speak at least modbus TCP and then one can hack something with HomeAssistant.
How to check this? I’ve got an LG heat pump…
It was in the manual. There’s an extra piece you connect inside and an app.
The reason is so you can control it from anywhere without setting up port forwarding and a static IP. Most people don’t understand, or can be bothered, doing that. I get why you don’t like it, I wouldn’t like it either, but it’s not some conspiracy.
It would be far better if somebody sold a single VPN device for the mass public to be able to access home devices. Something wireguard based could be so simple for people to use. Even better if your ISP had this as a standard feature which they made easy to setup Then none of these devices would have an excuse to go out to the company’s servers. Any that did would be obviously spying and they could be shamed.
Doesn’t wireguard’s zero config work by relaying through an outside web service? Seems like the LG solution with extra steps.
Better yet if the lasy ass ISPs would move over to IPv6, ditch CG-NAT and give static addresses for all. I suspect there is a deeper issue as I believe that even on IPv6, mobile phone internet is still hidden behind CG-NAT.
I’m curious what information a wash machine is sending could be useful to anyone?
4gb is definitely a bug … imagine getting 4gb per data per customer per day …
Well to be fair to giant spying companies, it would be fairly easy to sift through data as it comes in and only keep relevant metrics in a statistics database and throw out the rest before the day is through.
For giants like LG, Samsung, etc… it would be a drop in the bucket.
Sure but that’s a lot of data for a washing machine
It’s still bandwidth they have to pay for, which they could have used for more useful data, like having all the TVs phone home.
It’s likely been hacked by someone who guessed the default login details (when was the last time you changed the password on your washing machine), and is being used for malicious purposes such as DDoS attacks.
Hooray for IoT! The worst thing to happen to network security since… ever
The S in IoT stands for security.
There is no S.
That’s the joke
My LG washer needed a key printed on a label on the door to connect it to the network. However that isn’t to say that once on the network that the network itself wasn’t compromised and the washer found as an easy attack surface.
Article states is likely a reporting issue with the router.
Would be funny as fuck if they were using these devices as Bitcoin miners.
Hackers have used wind turbine farms as bitcoin miners. It’s not that far fetched.
Verbosity level 99999
It’s over 9000!
It only would be a big problem if household devices like washing machines are built in a way that makes a connection to the internet mandatory in order to function properly. Imagine you can’t do your laundry because of an internet outage.
Name any household device (washing machine, dishwasher, dryer, toaster, water kettle, iron, coffee maker, (microwave) oven, …) that has been improved in functionality by connecting it to the internet, making it a internet-of-things-device. I can’t think of any.
We have a washing machine that cannot be connected to the internet. After starting the program, we set up a timer on our smartphone, 15 minutes longer than the time the washing machine display is predicting. Works like a charm.
Name any household device (washing machine, dishwasher, dryer, toaster, water kettle, iron, coffee maker, (microwave) oven, …) that has been improved in functionality by connecting it to the internet
I once heard of a toaster that could download patterns (character faces and so forth) then burn them onto your toast. Totally novelty but kinda cool if you could have Batman toast with breakfast. I don’t know if it actually exists as a product or was just a proof of concept though.
Not sure if this exists, but it would be really nice to remotely see if my stove/oven is on and also remotely turn it off
For now, it looks like the favored answer to the data mystery is to blame Asus for misreporting it. We may never know what happened with Johnie, who is now running his LG washing machine offline.
Another relatively innocent reason for the supposed high volume of uploads could be an error in the Asus router firmware. In a follow-up post a day after his initial Tweet, Johnie noted “inaccuracy in the ASUS router tool.” Other LG smart washing machine users showed device data use from their apps. It turns out that these appliances more typically use less than 1MB per day.
1 MB per day is more than enough to phone home.
The title seems like clickbait tho.
Yes. Also yes.
I remember when Tom’s hardware was one German dentist and washing machines were to primitive to pick up a phone… you’d think they’d have done something cool by now like make them fold our clothes for us. The future is lame.
