A US appeals court Saturday paved the way for a California law banning the concealed carry of firearms in “sensitive places” to go into effect January 1, despite a federal judge’s ruling that it is “repugnant to the Second Amendment.”

The law – Senate Bill 2 – had been blocked last week by an injunction from District Judge Cormac Carney, but a three-judge panel filed an order Saturday temporarily blocking that injunction, clearing the path for the law to take effect.

The court issued an administrative stay, meaning the appeals judges did not consider the merits of the case, but delayed the judge’s order to give the court more time to consider the arguments of both sides. “In granting an administrative stay, we do not intend to constrain the merits panel’s consideration of the merits of these appeals in any way,” the judges wrote.

  • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    I’m sure gun people will be pissed at me for this, but wanting to have a concealed gun on you doesn’t really make much sense to me if guns are supposed to be a deterrent. You aren’t deterring anyone with your gun if no one knows you have it. Shouldn’t you want to wear it where everyone can see it so they know not to try anything funny?

    • ArgentRaven@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      I don’t think guns are supposed to be a deterrent. Someone running to mug you isn’t thinking clearly about the possible complications or repercussions.

      A carried gun is a commitment to kill someone before you are killed in a life or death situation. Not too feel cool or show off, or brandish as a warning.

      Plus if you dress like a cowboy, someone might try to mug you FOR that gun, making you a bigger target.

      That’s all pretty heavy, and the odds are low that you’d encounter that situation. So not a lot of people are willing to complicate their lives for it.

      • gmtom@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        A carried gun is a commitment to kill someone before you are killed in a life or death situation. Not too feel cool or show off, or brandish as a warning.

        In what world are you living in where someone comes up to you with a gun, in an attempt to kill you and you have time to remove your gun from wherever you’re concealing it, remove the safety and aim it before the person trying to kill you can kill you?

        • Kepabar@startrek.website
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          10 months ago

          It certainly happens.

          Just last week I saw a video where a man ran up with a gun to start a robbery. A woman whipped a handgun out of her purse and shot him.

          The idea that personal firearms can’t be used for self defense is a silly argument.

            • Kepabar@startrek.website
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              10 months ago

              It’s no different, both scenarios are threats to your life until the point the trigger is pulled (then it goes from threat to attempt).

              • gmtom@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                I mean I literally said attempt in my comments so…

                And basically anything can be a “threat” to your life. But I doubt even an American would agree with shooting someone because they cut you off in traffic.

        • ArgentRaven@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          I’m not sure that it’s worth the time to describe different scenarios to you when you don’t understand how safeties work.

          Instead, I suggest looking at the Active Self Protection YouTube channel.

        • PlantDadManGuy@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          Earth. This happens frequently on Earth. Perhaps it may shock you to find this out, but most criminals and thieves are not trained with firearms, and are not very good at shooting. Unless they’re already aiming at you and intent on murdering you, instead of just robbing you, or scaring you, they’re probably going to miss the first shot or two.

          In what world are you living where protecting yourself and your family is not important?

          • kent_eh@lemmy.ca
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            10 months ago

            most criminals and thieves are not trained with firearms, and are not very good at shooting.

            Neither are plenty of legal gun owners.

            While some states require a small amount of education regarding firearms safety before purchase, I can’t think of one that requires marksmanship training or a demonstration of skill as a prerequisite to owning a weapon.

            Owning a gun legally doesn’t mean you know how to use it competently.

            • skyspydude1@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              At least when I got my CPL in Colorado, we had a very basic marksmanship requirement of getting 5 shots in row within a 12in circle at 7 yards. Because we had good instructors, they made us do it 5 times. IMO it’s an absolute joke of a requirement and should be higher, but sadly we still shot more rounds for that class than what’s required by a lot of police departments for a firearms qualification.

          • gmtom@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            In what world are you living where protecting yourself and your family is not important.

            One where the general populace isn’t armed to the teeth? So I don’t have to worry about random crackheads shooting me.

            • Kepabar@startrek.website
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              10 months ago

              I think the issue in the US is that there are so many guns per capita and the population is so anti authority that it will take generations of confiscation before you’ll get a majority of personal firearms out of personal hands.

              And in the meantime you’ve removed the right for individuals to have the opportunity to defend themselves in dangerous situations.

    • skydivekingair@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      The deterrent is the uncertainty of who may and may not have a gun on them. A lot of self defense is making yourself a harder target, the knowledge that a firearm might come into play and the victim may be proficient at using it makes anyone and everyone a harder target. It doesn’t mean desperate criminals won’t still make a move, but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Again, it is already uncertain who may and may not have a gun on them.

        but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.

        Is there any data to that effect or is that just wishful thinking?

        • Dark Arc@social.packetloss.gg
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          10 months ago

          There’s not good data on anything related to guns and it’s frustrating.

          Intuitively it makes sense that if there might be a bear in the woods some people aren’t going to go into the woods because they’re afraid of getting mauled by a bear. It almost certainly has an effect, but quantifying it is going to be hard and subject to bias and the real effect will always be subject to other unrecorded factors (e.g. maybe when they tested one group the bears were hibernating).

          I personally don’t think many people who aren’t into gun culture or traumatized by guns give much thought to whether or not someone is going to have a gun in XYZ place … which probably translates to a lot of crimes of passion or desperation (e.g. I need drug money so I’m going to go rob this gas station).

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            I personally don’t think many people who aren’t into gun culture or traumatized by guns give much thought to whether or not someone is going to have a gun in XYZ place … which probably translates to a lot of crimes of passion or desperation (e.g. I need drug money so I’m going to go rob this gas station).

            Very well said and I am in agreement.

        • PlantDadManGuy@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          By saying it’s already uncertain, you’ve immediately made an assumption. Congratulations, you’re just as biased as the rest of us. Nothing you said so far has been supported by evidence.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Are you saying you can be certain that someone doesn’t have a gun concealed on their person where concealed carry is illegal?

            Otherwise, I don’t think it’s an assumption.

        • SkyezOpen@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          I’d say the crime rates in no carry zones vs like… Red bits of Texas would be an indicator. No idea what those are but the number of stories out of Texas like “robber shot by 3 different people during hold-up”… Yeh.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Those stories are curated by the media. That is not good data any more than all the crime reports the media makes is an indication of the crime rate which has been dropping for years.

        • PlantDadManGuy@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          It’s assumed that no one is armed in California because of all the unjust laws here. No thief is going to hesitate thinking “what if my target has a gun…”

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            It’s assumed

            That’s sort of the crux of the issue here- this all seems to be based on assumptions rather than data. And even my merely asking for data has apparently been a step too far for some people judging by the downvotes.

            I realize that guns in general are a hotbutton issue, but I really don’t think asking for data on concealed carry being a deterrent to crime is unreasonable when questioning the legality of it…

            • PlantDadManGuy@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              I don’t think you asked for anything. I think you made your own assumptions and they’re incorrect. Have a nice day.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                I literally have asked for data and evidence over and over. Just view the comment thread. Do I need to start showing you screenshots with accompanying links? Because we can start with higher up in this very comment chain:

                https://lemmy.world/comment/6318617

                And what specifically have I assumed? Please quote an assumption I have made.

    • chiliedogg@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      The deterrent is supposed to be the possibility of armed people. The idea is supposed to be that allowing people to legally carry concealed weapons means that any potential victim might have a gun.

      On the other hand, many gun owners who support concealed carry oppose open carry for several reasons.

      First off, they don’t want to make them or their gun a target. They don’t want someone trying to steal their gun, and they don’t want to flag themselves as the first target for any kind of attack.

      But another huge reason is that they feel like the only reason to carry openly in public is to make a political statement and carry around an implied threat. Most people who carry concealed consider themselves pretty normal people and they aren’t interested in making statements or threatening others. They just carry a gun.

      I’ll occasionally carry my target postil concealed just to keep the gun secure while transporting it. It’s usually in a safe at the house, but when I’m going to the range or leaving town I’ll take it with me, and it’s less-likely to get stolen off my hip than it is by having my car window smashed. Keeping it hidden on my person is just another part of firearm safety.

    • Liz@midwest.social
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      10 months ago

      I know you’re getting blasted with replies. It’s not supposed to be a deterrent. You carry concealed so that you can defend your life with deadly force without having to walk around pretending to be a badass all the time. Carrying a gun doesn’t stop crime, it stops people when they make an attempt on your life.

      • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        Carrying a gun doesn’t stop crime, it stops people when they make an attempt on your life.

        It can cause an attempt on your life if an assailant gets it. Or if you feel suicidal. The most dangerous gun is the one you own. The safest thing is to buy a gun and mail it to Alaska.

        • Liz@midwest.social
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          10 months ago

          I also agree. If you own a gun, the person you’re most likely to shoot with it is yourself (statistically speaking). After yourself, it’s loved ones. A gun is a massive responsibility and you need to take that seriously in order to not fall victim to the patterns that create those statistics.

      • whoisearth@lemmy.ca
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        10 months ago

        How fragile and distrusting of other people does someone have to be to feel the urge to carry a gun around on their person at all times? Granted America can be a bit (lol) dystopian but to warrant a gun on your hip to go to Trader Joe’s? That’s some scared person behaviour. For a nation that wants to come across as being the confident cowboy there really is a scared child behind it all.

        • Liz@midwest.social
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          10 months ago

          I think there are quite a few scared people carrying guns around in the US, and that’s very unfortunate. In fact, if you’re carrying because you’re afraid, you should reevaluate your situation. It’s just another tool you can carry around, one that you’re very, very unlikely to need.

          • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            In fact, if you’re carrying because you’re afraid, you should reevaluate your situation

            Tell that to my (former) neighbors in Chicago. It was a poor neighborhood. There was gang activity. Most of the people that lived there have been on the same street for 30+ years. They couldn’t afford to move, and cops DNGAF because the neighborhood was 98% black. What’s to “re-evaluate”? You can’t move, cops sure as fuck aren’t going to save your ass when trouble comes calling, and the violence is real. Even without guns, three young gang members in the alley will fuck you up.

            I’ve got five fire extinguishers in my home, but I’ve never had a house fire.

            • Liz@midwest.social
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              10 months ago

              Yeah yeah, I hear you, but there’s a difference between rational fear and irrational fear. You know full well I was talking about folks who live in safe neighborhoods. Even then, you should be practiced enough that you’re not walking around paranoid and anxious all the time. It doesn’t do you any good to shoot at noises in the dark.

              • freeindv@monyet.cc
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                10 months ago

                There’s a difference between the reality he’s expressing and the made up hateful strawman you’re beating up in your head

                • Liz@midwest.social
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                  10 months ago

                  What? I’m honestly not sure what you think is in my head. I was referring to people who are scared to live life in what is actually a safe area?

          • ZMonster@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            I think there are quite a few scared people carrying guns around in the US, and that’s very unfortunate.

            See “US Police” for more information.

        • freeindv@monyet.cc
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          10 months ago

          What a hateful way to look at it. Self defense is a basic human right and being prepared to do the right thing doesn’t make you “scared”

        • Liz@midwest.social
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          10 months ago

          I totally agree! If there was a tool I could carry around that made me invulnerable I’d carry that instead. A “proper” person who has decided to carry a gun should also be carrying pepper spray and a med kit. You can argue about the utility of a taser, but they’re very uncommon for people to carry. They should also have significant practice with any tool they decide to carry. Oh, and they should practice de-escalating and disengaging from various “bad” situations. The priority should be to do everything you can to avoid using your gun. If you are forced to use it, that’s a bad, rare, and regrettable situation, and you had really better be able to tell yourself you did everything right.

    • Codilingus@sh.itjust.works
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      10 months ago

      Everyone I know that carries does so concealed. They don’t care about deterrents or whatever, they’re just taking a precaution they hope to never use. Like being mugged or attacked. Source: Texas.

      • Eatspancakes84@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        You have far more confidence in people than I do. Hoping to never use it (except perhaps in that drunk fight with my neighbour)? I wouldn’t trust anyone who carries guns on the extremely remote probability that it will help them in a shooting/robbery.

      • bobs_monkey@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        One of my good buddies lives in North Las Vegas and has his CCW. He calls it a crackhead deterrent. I thought he was full of shit until I visited him, now I advocate for moving to a better neighborhood.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Wouldn’t you be less likely to be mugged or attacked if the potential mugger or attacker saw you had a gun? This is sort of what I’m saying…

        • Codilingus@sh.itjust.works
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          10 months ago

          IMO, a lot of people see the open carrying types to just be people cosplaying badasses. The type that has spent basically 0 time training to use it, outside maybe taking it to a range and firing off a hundred rounds. They see it as a gun to be stolen?

          The only time I see open carry that seems to make sense in all of this is shop workers/cashier. I’ve been in stores that have a reputation based on what they sell to get hit by robbers, and the guy working is carrying outside his belt. Like a smoke shop or liquor store for example.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            I’d like to see some actual data to support this. Much like I’d like to see some data that concealed carry actually has a negative effect on crime.

            • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/does-allowing-law-abiding-citizens-carry-concealed-handguns-save

              The most conservative estimates show that the adoption of “shall issue” right-to-carry firearm laws reduced murders by 8 percent, rapes by 5 percent, aggravated assault by 7 percent, and robbery by 3 percent. Although the initial drop in crime was often small, the longer the law was in effect, the larger the drop in crime over time. The benefits of concealed handguns were not limited to those who used a handgun in self- defense. By virtue of the fact that handguns were concealed, criminals were unable to tell whether a potential victim was equipped to strike back, thus making it less attractive for criminals to commit crimes when they came into direct contact with victims. An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduced the murder rate for women by approximately three to four times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduced the murder rate for men. Further, the study found that the increased use of guns in heated traffic disputes and the increased number of accidental handgun deaths was insignificant compared to the lives saved from violent crime that was prevented.

            • Codilingus@sh.itjust.works
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              10 months ago

              Can’t help you there, again everything I said was my personal feelings on the matter being a Texan having talked to people about it a ton over the years.

        • Zomboomafoo@slrpnk.net
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          10 months ago

          There’s two main reasons. For one, people get uncomfortable around someone open carrying in public, so it’s more polite to have it concealed. A common mentality is that people who OC (open carry), do so for the attention, not protection.

          And the second reason is that if someone was planning on starting something, openly carrying a gun could make you the first target, either for attack or for theft of your gun.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            For one, people get uncomfortable around someone open carrying in public, so it’s more polite to have it concealed.

            I don’t know that we should be basing our gun laws around what makes people comfortable. On either side of the equation. They should be based on data that allowing or disallowing something regarding guns is safe for the general public and effective when it comes to crime and self-defense. Or at least that is what I think and I would be open to hearing an argument against that beyond an overly-broad interpretation of the Second Amendment where all gun regulations should be nullified.

            And the second reason is that if someone was planning on starting something, openly carrying a gun just makes you the first target. Concealed carry gives the element of surprise

            This is another thing I have seen people claim here several times without data and, at the risk of offending some, I would again like to see some data which actually supports this claim.

            • Zomboomafoo@slrpnk.net
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              10 months ago

              There isn’t need for data, it’s just logic.

              If you were going to rob a store and the person ahead of you openly has a gun on their hip, you’re either going to leave, take them out, or steal their weapon.

              If your’re the one openly carrying, every person within arms reach could be a threat, and you’ll never know how much OCing actually deterred any action.

              If want data, feel free to find some, don’t respond to every argument put into this thread with “I’d like to see some data”