• minkshaman@lemmy.perthchat.org
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    1 year ago

    I’ll tell you a secret you might have missed.

    It’s not about the privacy.

    It’s about a foreign country of similar power levels having the ability to shape your people’s political opinions.

    They’re shitting themselves because it’s one of the first times it’s happened to them instead of them doing it to someone else.

    • erogenouswarzone@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      I feel like the American media is out of control and is no longer a tool of the people, but a fire hose of the wealthy, disseminating whatever will help them keep their power.

      They have convinced the people that news makes you intelligent, when really the lack of new ideas and differing viewpoints creates a closed feedback loop so they just regurgitate whatever they hear with absolute confidence, but if you ask them a question it all falls apart.

      Fox, CNN, New York Times, NPR, it’s all owned or supported in such a way that they dare not bite the hand that feeds it.

      So I, for one, am open to hearing what foreign countries have to say.

      • VaidenKelsier@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        No matter what your source of information is, you always have to be mindful and take information in context, and be sure to validate unproven claims. There’s a thousand interests competing for your attention and loyalty, and a lot of it is driven through fear and uncertainty.

        Any fearmongering about China makes me uncomfortable, as it should every rational thinking person. Just like fearmongering against everyone should be viewed with suspicion.

        Be careful out there, everyone. It’s a wild jungle.

  • skillissuer@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    new user freshly connected to internet, would you rather:

    -waste your precious time and attention on hypercapitalist hellscape headquartered in usa, or

    -waste your precious time and attention on hypercapitalist hellscape headquartered in china

  • nul9o9@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    The key difference is that American Government agencies don’t have access to the information TikTok steals from its users.

    • kenbw2@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      This is naive. America has all the laws they need to get data from private companies, just the same as China

    • ZephrC@lemm.ee
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      At least in theory they have to get a warrant, although there are plenty of examples of tech companies handing over information without one. They definitely have access to all the same information if they really want it though.

      Edit: In hindsight I think I may have misinterpreted how that post was intended. American government agencies do have a harder time getting access to TikTok’s information, although at least for US users TikTok has separate servers that make it possible for them to do so.

      • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
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        1 year ago

        They have to get a warrant to demand it, yes. But if they show up with a bag full of money, the companies will just turn it right over.

        • TimeNaan@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          They probably don’t even need that. Corpos like to work with the government, it’s mutual.

          • DrMario@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Yeah, what does Meta have to lose? Only their reputation for protecting user privacy, which was lost long ago.

    • SpyingEnvelope@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      This is what people miss. Furthermore, it’s reasonable not to want an enemy state to have access to information relating to a country’s citizens. Yes, the US has done. Yes, it was wrong. Yes, they are getting a taste of their own medicine. That’s why they’re worried about it. They know how badly that information can be used.

      Furthermore, it is clear the Chinese government has an influence over app contents. It is easy for them to use it to shape the opinions of their userbase depending on the country.

  • jerkface@lemmy.ca
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    1 year ago

    True but also true: you are comparing multinational corporations to the Chinese government, who is currently waging cold war against Western states. That’s the quiet part they’re taking care not to say loud, hence posturing.

        • HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml
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          You mean roughly the part of the world where the US used Agent Orange and flamethrowers?

          Oh, and nuked twice. Almost forgot.

          • b3nsn0w@pricefield.org
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            1 year ago

            or in the sovereign country where most of the entire world’s chip supply comes from, but “china needs it more” so we should just let them invade

            also, don’t forget all the chinese propaganda about how they’re going to dethrone america and become the world superpower. do they seriously expect to wage a cold war and not have the west respond to that?

          • jerkface@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Who are you even talking to? Did someone let Kissinger into this discussion? We have rules about that.

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        1 year ago

        Canada isn’t so big that it’s statistically unlikely I don’t know someone China “touched” and is still “touching” today. More than 5% of Canadians are Chinese. With Chinese police actions being documented to be carried out within 100km of me and quite likely within my own city, it’s starting to get pretty fucking personal for everyone over here.

        • krolden@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          If they’re Chinese citizens then they are technically still bound by Chinese law even while living abroad, just as an american or Canadian would be if they were living in another country.

          Unless you’re speaking of Canadian citizens that are ethnic Chinese but not citizens of the PRC then I would like so see some proof on these documented Chinese police actions in Canada.

  • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Americans when Canadians say they’d prefer TikTok spying vs an American company:

    but seriously. I want no one to have my data, but if someone HAD to have it, I would prefer TikTok over anything from Meta, Amazon, Microsoft, etc…

    My country wont export me to China if I post something negative or pirate something. My country will export me to the US if they come banging on my door. I am quite literally safer letting China have a bit of my data.

    • jerkface@lemmy.ca
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      China literally holds our citizens hostage to attempt to force us to permit their espionage. Openly operates police depots on Canadian territory to terrorize people here. It’s not the fucking same.

      • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I’m not talking about that. Please stay on topic. My simple statement is true, and doesn’t mean that I love China. I don’t. You’ll never catch me ever talking positive about China or ever stepping foot in China.

        • jerkface@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          How convenient! It’s on topic because it should be informing your choice who you want exploiting you.

          Will you never have a loved one step foot in China? Will you never come to care for the Chinese Canadians and their families abroad who are vulnerable, or is it enough that it doesn’t affect you personally? China’s government has no problem using people’s families against them.

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            1 year ago

            You’re unhinged and insufferable. I said none of those things. Please, get help.

            You’re upset because I think China having my data vs the US is the slightly lesser of two evils.

            If I could pick, I’d pick no one having my data. Both countries are shit and both countries would do bad things with my data. One has less control over me, so I’d pick that one, I guess.

    • Catsrules@lemmy.ml
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      I am pretty sure TikTok would comply if you posted something illegal under Canada law or US law. Sure they aren’t based in the US but that doesn’t mean they don’t operate within the US and can just ignore the US laws. I assume they also have operations within Canada as well.

        • Tomoomba@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          The point being that the US even if aggressive uses the proper channels to pursue action against entities it believes to be dangerous?

          How is that worse than China illegally and secretively doing the exact same thing within your own borders they promised to respect.

          • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I DO NOT WANT MY DATA ON AMERICAN SERVERS.

            I DO NOT WANT MY DATA ON AMERICAN SERVERS.

            I DO NOT WANT MY DATA ON AMERICAN SERVERS.

            • Tomoomba@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Okay next time you can stop there then if that’s all you want to say. No need to vaguely complain about YOUR GOVERNMENT extraditing criminals to the US while willfully ignoring the fact China engages in ILLEGAL operations within your border.

    • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      This is the worst take I’ve ever heard. The concerns are “capitalist targeted advertising” vs “a foreign power abusing American user data to target and push agendas on it’s people”.

      Is lemmygrad leaking??

      • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I’m not a lemmygrad user. I’m simply stating facts?

        There’s literally many recent news articles of Canadians getting in legal trouble from American companies because of the things they posted or things they downloaded.

        The Canadian government isn’t handing me over to China or allowing China to come get me.

        My comment is not even pro China. I’m just saying that nothing I say or do will allow China to put me in jail. Can’t say the same about America.

        You should learn to read. I would prefer no one get my data, but it’s statistically safer for me for China to get it over an American company. However, no one should get it. Fuck shit American companies, fuck shit Chinese companies.

        • settinmoon@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          This is actually what I wanted to say to a lot of people. During peace times, allowing a foreign adversary stealing your data is a lot less damaging to your personal freedoms than your own government stealing your data. We need to be wary every time when our own government tries to tries to introduces surveillance laws under the disguise of “national security”.

          • SpacetimeMachine@lemmy.world
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            “Peace times” doesn’t mean much when wars are waged through propagandizing a countries population to promote civil unrest. Russia was doing this for years and look how it changed the country completely in 2016. I’m certain china will be doing the same. I think people vastly underestimate the value of this data, and what a foreign power can do with it. They can subtly shape the future of a country to damage it far worse than some proxy war will.

            • settinmoon@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              I’m glad that you brought up the problem of foreign propaganda. I firmly believe the government shouldn’t be there to tell me what kind of views I can and cannot see. Some exceptions already exist such as blatant calls for violence which we already have clear guidelines on. Other than that, government is in no place to regulate speech. What’s the point of beating Russia and China when we become just like them?

          • RaoulDook@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            You’re about half right. How about just not giving the foreign adversary your data at all?

            You don’t NEED TikTok. Nobody does, it’s fucking garbage artificial ADD fuel. Everyone should get rid of it.

            • settinmoon@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Well I don’t use TikTok and couldn’t care less if they get banned. If you actually read the bills that’s getting passed like the RESTRICT act in the US you’d realize it’s not about banning TikTok and it has numerous vague and concerning clauses that infringes on your privacy. My opinion is always have better privacy laws and enforce it equally on all companies. When my government blatantly tries to steal more of my data and pretend they’re actually doing me a favor I’d rather the foreign adversary have it for free.

                • settinmoon@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  To each their own. Ideally no company should have those data that can be used for spying by any government. But if I have to choose, I personally fear government overreach more than anything else. We can agree to disagree here.

          • jerkface@lemmy.ca
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            Peace time?! China is waging a cold war against Western democracies!

            • settinmoon@lemmy.ml
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              so war hasn’t broken out, what’s your point? Last time I checked China still isn’t able to send agents to my house to arrest me, but folks here are getting misreported for CSAM to the feds by google scanning their pictures without consent.

            • Gabu@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              So are the same Western democracies… nearly half of the US is too stupid to understand how voting for an orange Mussolini wannabe was a horrible idea. There’s undeniable proof that the CIA interfered with the Brazilian government between 2016 and 2020. Italy is once again on the brink of Fascism.

        • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          How is “getting in trouble with American companies” (i.e. getting banned from a platform for breaking their rules) worse than a foreign power trying to influence a countries people? You’re not going to jail for posting dumb bullshit lol

          • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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            Who said about getting banned?

            If I pirate Photoshop, Adobe could come for me if they really wanted to. Canada doesn’t care about piracy, you don’t need to use a VPN here, but if the American company Adobe really wanted at me, Canada would not stop them.

            If I pirated some Chinese software there their government couldn’t do shit to me.

            You know geohot, the guy sued by Sony for hacking the ps3? He was American, but that doesn’t change much. If he was Canadian, he would’ve been fucked just the same. Now if I hacked a Chinese console to enable piracy, literally nothing would happen to me.

            If I made a threat on the Presidents life, I would be watched and potentially have American feds knocking on my door. If I threatened China, I would get upvotes and people would laugh.

            You’re not really understanding what I’m saying. I’m assuming you’re American? The country where pretty much every massive company operates from? Well, the rest of the world hates that nearly everything we do is funneled back into the US.

            Use Windows? MacOS? Android? iOS? Gmail? Outlook? Yahoo? Microsoft Office? Facebook? Instagram? Reddit?.. the list goes on.

            Now imagine if 95% of your data was funneled into a different country. I’m sure you’d hate it. Especially with the state of American politics right now. Your country is dangerous.

            • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              I’m not American, I’m Canadian, and I never said that I’m cool with their government’s recent developments, but that doesn’t mean the Chinese government collecting and using your data to push it’s agenda on foreign citizens is better, that’s absolutely insane.

              And your argument is that you want to freely and openly hack proprietary software and make threats on the US president’s life? Lol what the fuck.

              • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Please tell me where China is pushing their agenda on me? My TikTok is full of American and Canadian creators, talking about technology, science, animals, and comedy. Also a bit of food.

                That’s also not my argument, but congrats on missing the point.

                If you don’t understand what I’m saying, that’s on you. I’m not having a back and forth about this any longer, I escaped Reddit because of that. You can go back there if you want to argue and mix words with others. I’m not having that.

                • jerkface@lemmy.ca
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                  When they kidnap your fucking neighbours and hold them for fucking extortion of your fucking state, that is China pushing their fucking agenda on you, for fucking fuck’s sake.

                  When they religiously persecute CANADIAN CITIZENS in fucking CANADIAN TERRITORY, that’s China pushing their agenda on you.

                • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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                  1 year ago

                  I mean they literally censor and ban creators for anything they deem to be anti-Chinese and then turn around and deny it ever happens, but sure, let’s use your personal anecdotal evidence to make our opinions here.

                  Mix words? I took direct quotes from your comment lol. Glad you left Reddit because you weren’t clear enough though I guess

      • Gabu@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Are you seriously implying the 'murican government wouldn’t get easy access to whatever data an US company has on you?

        • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          I’m not implying anything, I am absolutely sure it is harder for the US government to get your personal data from US tech companies than it is for the Chinese government to get your data from TikTok.

          Why would US Republicans be purchasing data from the Cambridge Analytica leak if Facebook was already handing it over? And this article was posted here the other day showing that the FBI cannot access messaging data from apps that properly implement E2EE. Even WhatsApp, a Meta product ffs, only hands over limited contact info, and big US tech has been increasingly adding E2EE to their apps and lobbying against backdoor access since the public backlash over the Snowden leaks.

          But that isn’t even the only concern, we’re talking straight foreign influence as a security concern here. Yes, domestic influence is also bad, I’m against propaganda and dangerous censorship of all forms, but one is absolutely worse.

          As you can probably tell from this thread, it’s very easy to say edgy inflammatory like “I’d rather China have my data”, but they rarely back it up with anything other than whatifs.

          • Gabu@lemmy.world
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            I am absolutely sure it is harder for the US government to get your personal data from US tech companies than it is for the Chinese government to get your data from TikTok.

            So am I, but “harder” doesn’t mean “hard”.

            Why would US Republicans be purchasing data from the Cambridge Analytica leak if Facebook was already handing it over?

            You’re confusing government - particularly the executive power - with political parties. Republicans want to manipulate the opinions of their voter base so they can get elected and be bribed by corporations. The FBI/CIA/Whatever-other-agency want to prevent their secrets from leaking, dominate and subjugate certain groups, and control global shifts of power. They, of course, also investigate illegal activities online, but that’s probably a tertiary concern at best.

            And this article was posted here the other day showing that the FBI cannot access messaging data […]

            You missed the very important word “legally”. We know, however, that the FBI doesn’t give a shit about doing things legally.

            But that isn’t even the only concern, we’re talking straight foreign influence as a security concern here. Yes, domestic influence is also bad, I’m against propaganda and dangerous censorship of all forms, but one is absolutely worse.

            Indeed, one is worse - but I don’t believe you’re correct in which one it is. Having LIVED a period of clear PsyOps, both internal and external, as well as seen US “security” agencies meddling with my country’s government, I’ll tell you the US is currently much more dangerous.

            • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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              You missed the very important word “legally”. We know, however, that the FBI doesn’t give a shit about doing things legally.

              You don’t know how end to end encryption works do you? Kinda wasting my time here if you’ve formed such a strong opinion on something you don’t actually understand lol.

                • Steeve@lemmy.ca
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                  I do, I work with it, but classic “I know your are but what am I” argument lmao

        • b3nsn0w@pricefield.org
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          No, the problem is Chinese-aligned whataboutism, a hallmark of tankie bullshit. People deflect to American spying to justify Tiktok’s spying, as if people aren’t already mad at Meta, Google, Amazon, and the rest spying on them. On the individual level, one is letting anyone “get away” with spying, so saying Tiktok should “also” be able to get away with spying is complete bullshit. We can be mad about all of these companies spying at us at the same time.

          Have you seen anyone respond to criticism about Facebook’s tracking policies with “oh but Tiktok also tracks you so you should be okay with this?” Because I sure haven’t, but it comes up all the time when people discuss Tiktok. It’s just so disingenuous… allow people to discuss topics, we’ll get to shitting on Facebook and Google too, don’t worry. Detracting every Tiktok convo to that just makes you appear as if you’re trying to shove their wrongdoing under the rug.

          And if you’re talking about foreign policy, western social medias are already blocked in China out of the same national security concerns that’s behind a potential Tiktok ban. It is extremely dangerous to allow foreign, especially hostile powers to influence your society through the algorithms of a social media, because they have a very clear incentive to make your population elect the worst possible people and sow chaos. This is why a lot of non-western-aligned countries block western social medias, and this is why the west should also block non-western social medias. It wouldn’t be unprecedented.

          • Gabu@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            You are aware thar 'murica, your golden “western democracy”, has meddled in many more elections than China, yes? The CIA has been proven to be connected to TWO Brazilian coups…

            • b3nsn0w@pricefield.org
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              Which is why I wouldn’t blame Brazil if they banned American or otherwise western-aligned social medias. But I’m sorry, “we fucked around with others and therefore we shouldn’t ensure our own national security” is a completely lunatic take.

              • Gabu@lemmy.world
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                First, neither coup was related to social media. Second, that’s a strawman

                • b3nsn0w@pricefield.org
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                  It really isn’t a strawman. There are two ways you can interpret the above meme:

                  1. We shouldn’t allow American companies to spy either
                  2. We should allow Chinese companies to spy too

                  Interpretation #1 is one of the coldest takes possible on the internet. Read the room, no one was excusing American companies of spying, and plenty of people are mad about Meta, Twitter, and the rest. Hell, the whole reason most of us are here on Lemmy is because we grew tired of more corporate social medias. The meme format here implies that the point expressed is controversial, and interpretation #1 is objectively non-controversial, so the meme is either stupid or that’s not what it’s saying.

                  And interpretation #2 is exactly what you just called a strawman here. It’s complete lunacy and borderline bootlicking to suggest that we should allow other companies to also spy on us. And why exactly? Just because you want to see that team “win”, at the expense of all of us losing even more?

                  But I have to think you’re going with interpretation #2, because of this:

                  First, neither coup was related to social media.

                  If those coups weren’t related to social media, why bring them up? We’re discussing social media here. This only makes sense if you’re playing the us vs them of geopolitics, and like, just don’t.

                  In the end, we want none of these companies to spy on us. And unlike domestic companies or those headquartered in allied countries, social media companies in hostile countries not only pose a risk to individual privacy, they are also a national security risk. Which is why China bans western social medias, and why the west should also ban Chinese social medias. Both of these measures are a net benefit, and neither of these measures precludes taking action against domestic or allied social medias – but unlike Bytedance, which is a Chinese company, western regulation can be enforced far easier against western social medias, and the same can be said about Chinese regulation regarding Chinese social medias.

    • Veedems@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      We should be saying both are bad. We need much stronger, EU like privacy laws.

      • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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        And how would privacy laws be applied to TikTok, which is outside the jurisdiction of these laws?

        The only way to get TikTok to have any privacy policies at all is by threatening to block them.

        Which is what’s happening.

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          TikTok isn’t outside of that jurisdiction, they are operating in places like the US. If they violate privacy laws, you remove them from accessing that market

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      1 year ago

      I think that is generally the point?

      Often Americans point to china as big bad for shit America is actively doing as well, while pretending America is so great. They both fucking suck. They both want to be the major super power and to do so they both do horrible shit to their own people, people in other countries, entire other countries, both extremely capitalistic, etc.

      • vegantomato@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Mass media are at their core propaganda tools. Their mission is to further the agendas of whoever finances them, they are not driven by the pursuit of truth, justice or anything related such as the defense of privacy.

    • FIST_FILLET@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      politicians are actively talking about banning tiktok. let me know when they do the same for twitter, instagram, reddit, facebook, tinder, youtube, google, amazon, and every other US site that does the exact same snooping that tiktok does. THEN we can say “both are bad”.

      • vegantomato@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I think you’ve got it backwards. If we can’t acknowledge that both are bad before talking about banning them, then what justification do we have for banning them?

  • hark@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I remember articles in the early 00s about how China wouldn’t allow Google to operate there and a big deal was made about “the great firewall of China” and how it was all about censorship, but now that China has an influential internet service, US congress is demanding they hand over ownership of US operations to a US company.

  • Heldenhirn@feddit.de
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    1 year ago

    So many people here who don’t understand why people are able to criticize more than one country be like:

    A: “Tell me the difference between these pictures:” || xor

    B: “They are the same”

  • Nioxic@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    i’d rather be spied on by an allied country, or my own, than a somewhat hostile country.

      • two_wheel2@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        You’re right and me neither, and as much as I don’t want my home address to be public, I’m sure there are people it would be WORSE to have know it than others. US companies acting how they do is unacceptable, but they can at least (if they have scruples) say fuck off to the government assuming we aren’t living in a truly renegade government. The meme here is correct and I think we should hold companies to a higher standard, but acting like every government is equal or the CCP isn’t immediately scarier than the US government doesn’t seem helpful to me.

        I love Chinese people, I love their culture, I grew up there, I do not love their government.

      • b3nsn0w@pricefield.org
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        1 year ago

        same, but people usually say the shit you just memed about to justify tiktok’s spying. no one here is arguing for meta and co, the fediverse is actively against them, so why aren’t we also allowed to be against tiktok?

    • Match!!@pawb.social
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      1 year ago

      I’d rather be spied on by a far away country than by one with armed bastards on my street

    • Contend6248@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      If you’re being honest to yourself, when your own country is spying on you it might have a bigger impact on you than a country you might visit for a week or never.

  • alliswell33 @lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    Xenophobia (from Ancient Greek ξένος (xénos) ‘strange, foreign, alien’, and φόβος (phóbos) ‘fear’) is the fear or dislike of anything which is perceived as being foreign or strange.

    • CriticalMiss@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      The same fearmongering would’ve happened to American social media apps if it wasn’t for that sweet sweet data the US government is able to get.

    • fugepe@lemmy.ml
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      Their politicians are geriatric boomers. Biden can barely make sense on his phrases when he speaks. Just let the USA implode

  • DMmeYourNudes@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    its almost like foreign governments collecting information about your population is a bad thing for your people and your government, or something.

    • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      It’s worse for the US to have my data as a Canadian than China. America can come for me, and my country would hand me over. China can’t do shit to me.

      • DMmeYourNudes@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        America would lose all standing in global politics and the global economy if they invaded Canada without very strong reason. If the US started a war with China tomorrow, half the world, Canada included, would either do nothing or join them.

          • DMmeYourNudes@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Wtf does that have to do with anything? Were talking about large scale spying not infringing on American copyrights.

            • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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              … And when they are spying, and see something they don’t like, they CAN come for me. Canadian government won’t stop them.

              I don’t want a shitty country like America to spy on me. Sorry. America is not as great as Americans act like it is.

              Like I’ve said, I want no one to spy on me. But if I had to pick, I’d pick China because it makes me safer. Not because I’d like it. I wouldn’t. Fuck spying.

              • DMmeYourNudes@lemmy.world
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                Yeah, the US is really gunna come after you because…? Right, there is no way your government would give you over without actual evidence.

                • JshKlsn@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  It seems like you don’t understand the point.

                  I also think it’s really weird that Americans are replying to me being really defensive over other countries not preferring to give America all their data.

                  Like I said, America isn’t as great as Americans think it is. The rest of the world doesn’t want their data funneled into America. I’m sorry if this is how you’re finding out that America isn’t number one.

                  I’m really not trying to be a dick or argue, I just don’t get how you don’t understand the basic concept that Canada will hand me over to the US, but won’t hand me over to China.

                  It’s also frustrating that you guys think that if I don’t agree with America having my data, that I love China? I don’t. Never said I did. I hate both places having my data. I hate my own country having my data. It’s not all black and white.