The first act of violence that patriarchy demands >of males is not violence toward women. Instead >patriarchy demands of all males that they >engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that >they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If >an individual is not successful in emotionally >crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal >men to enact rituals of power that will assault >his self-esteem
-bell hooks
As someone socialized transfeminine that quote always hit hard. Especially now as I’m older and making closer friends with adult men who are trying to heal from that psychic mutilation I’m seeing all the ways that it runs deep.
And the thing is it’s not a voluntary trade of power for vulnerability. It is backed by violence against those who cannot or will not engage in it. From social isolation to fists this violence keeps those who are uncomfortable in some form of line.
And then we see that men trying to heal from this are often unable or uncomfortable to go to each other for healing and find themselves overburdening their wives and girlfriends for something few of them have the frame of reference to understand. And some of these women have also internalized these ideas of men and push that continued expectation onto them.
Idk that’s at least what I’ve observed of the phenomenon. But I can say that a lot of the damage can be healed and you model a more whole adulthood for your sons.
This hits me hard. I am a cis male and currently trying to get rid of something like toxic masculinity, but as you say it is deeply rooted.
I acually never strived for the stereotypical man image, I wanted to have an emotional side. Now i know i always just considered “having am emotional side” just as another kind of requirement to be a good man. So i tried listening to others and beeing open myself, talking about emotional things. But only those, that i thougt were accepted. I never talked about my real worries. They always seemed to ridiculous to me. A good emotially healthy man shouldn’t have them or solve them himself. Now it feels pretty dumb in retrospect, but I am no longer letting this feeling stop me from talking about something. In some way I also have the feeling i betrayed other people with a fake personality.
I know this is not the mistake of feminism. I cannot really say what went wrong to land in this position. I do not even know why i tell this now. In some way, I just want to tell my story and hope someone can relate with it. Secondly i want to say, that the following is not obvious for everyone, at least it was not for me: Beeing emotional is not just some requirement for you, it’s also about having an opportunity to get support for your worries.
ball hocks
Facts tho.
It’s always the dudes who are only friends with other dudes that have the most issues.
More of a cultural thing than anything, but it’s always good for dudes to have women as friends as well, women are just better at talking about some things. They don’t have the same social hangups as a lot of men.
Shits better than it was, but it’s still weird when people only have friends of their own gender.
Many women and men do not like their SO having friends of the opposite gender, especially if they are alone together. So that means having a female friend that you can privately confide in is not easy to have or maintain if either party is in a relationship.
The “safest” way to have an opposite gendered friend that you can talk to is one that you only talk to at work during work hours, which isn’t an option for male dominated fields(e.g. construction) and men in those environments are probably the most in need of a female friend to talk to.
The irony is that the people who don’t want their SO having an opposite gendered friend probably need an opposite gendered friend to talk to.
If there’s that much lack of trust, only having same gendered friends isn’t helping anything.
It’s just prolonging a bad relationship
Product of the times. It used to be that infidelity was uncommon, but it happens with around 35% of unmarrived couples and around 20% of married couples today, with twice as many being the mens’ fault, probably due to their own faults not being the men that women deserve.
Around 65% of romantic couples begin as platonic couples.
The best relationships are based on a foundation as best friends. If you can’t be best friends, then you can’t have a strong enough relationship to make marriage work. There are a lot of people who get married based on expectations and poor reasoning, but the relationships that last are between people who are best friends, can communicate effectively, and naturally meet each other’s needs last the longest. That is a narrow band of people per individual which can persist without outside pressure(culture, religion, kids, etc.).
We are so lonely and desperate to have someone to love and be loved by that we end up in relationships that are unsustainable. Meeting someone who actually completes you, or feels more compatible, ruins a workable relationship because it is not harder than the easiest day spent with another person who can only temporarily satisfy the needs left unfulfilled by a relationship with a viable partner.
The grass is always greener, but your grass can be just as green if you put in the work, and that takes effort that may not seem as cheap as hopping the fence. Put in the work and the hassle of switching pasture will be less than the upkeep, that is hard to understand.
If there is any given fact about the human condition, it is infidelity, this goes back as far as we have records of marriage being a thing. The modern change is how we see marriage and relationships.
And while I agree on the friends make good relationship partners, it is not the duty, or even the point, of the other person “completing” you. If you want a good relationship, you need to be “complete” on your own, because no one, not even a romantic partner, can do that for you.
PS:
with twice as many being the mens’ fault, probably due to their own faults not being the men that women deserve
you’re a “feminist” (bigot who hides behind the veil of equal rights for all sexes, note the massive quotes) aren’t you? I would recommend you do some introspection if you really believe yourself a feminist, and why you would victim blame anyone for “not being good enough” real “you made me hit you” vibes here
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think your spouse shouldn’t have an opposite gendered friend with whom they spend a lot of alone time. It’s not just about trusting your spouse, it’s also about trusting the friend. Couple friends and friends groups are great, not sure why my husband would need to spend a lot of time alone with another lady. There are plenty of women I trust him to be alone with, but they’re all also my friend, and usually their partner is a friend as well.
Last time my husband had a female friend who was not mutual she ended up sending pictures of herself drinking in the shower to him. She was also in a relationship at the time, so he thought she was just a platonic friend. I trust him, I don’t blindly trust people I don’t know.
How exactly do you think bisexual or pansexual people function? Do you think they just don’t have friends? If not, why is it different for heterosexual people? I genuinely don’t understand. I’m not trying to do a ‘gotcha’ or a win a silly internet argument or anything like that. I just genuinely have never understood it and I want to so I keep trying. My best guess so far is it’s just a mix of insecurities and weird gender norms and heteronormativity.
I really don’t understand heterosexual people that are like this. I’m a gay dude. I’m attracted to dudes, I have lots of gay dudes that are platonic friends. It’s possible to be friends with people without boning them lol.
I think the fear isn’t that everyone of the preferred gender wants to bone your partner, but that you have no way of knowing which ones do. The uncertainty is what I think gets to a lot of people.
Still, it’s silly. If one of the core values of your relationship is that you’re exclusive, it’s up to you and your partner to honor that, not up to every other person who comes along. If your partner won’t respect that if a friend offers, then they don’t respect the relationship to begin with and you’re better off finding out.
At least, that’s my take from listening to other people. I’m not a sociologist or anything.
I think that’s part of what’s beautiful about love. The healthiest relationships are those which accept they don’t have control over their partner loving them. It’s like the greatest expression of trust.
I get where you’re coming from but I’ve witness toxicity regarding masculinity from both men and women. Honestly, it’s definitely possible to have healthy relationships with other dudes. All of my best friends are guys and we aren’t afraid to talk about anything, like our feelings. So it’s really the company you keep that really matters, regardless of gender imo
Unfortunately, “my friends and family are all assholes, must be feminists fault” is extremely common and rarely shaken off.
There’s plenty of reasons people night not listen to your problems. Sometimes people just don’t have the space. Sometimes they’re just assholes.
The reasons I’ve seen the most frequently stem from the person trying to talk. They’re oversharing. They never reciprocate. They never take steps to actually address their problems. They’re using their problems to manipulate someone who isn’t falling for it.
But in 40 years of adulthood, I’ve never seen “I’m not going to listen to them solely because they’re a man”.
This. Part of learning to share emotions is learning to accept shared emotions and learning to not share emotions for all the other reasons. Most of my interactions in all women groups don’t really deal much with our feelings aside from bits at the beginning and end or with a “can I vent” warning/request at the beginning (and that’s a sometimes thing). And we take turns talking about what’s going on in our lives or deciding what the conversation is about, actively making space for others to chime in.
If you need to talk a lot about your feelings, especially the deep stuff, talk to a therapist. That’s not brushing you off, it’s what therapy is for.
But also learn to feel your feelings by yourself. Put on a sad movie and cry without shame. Go for a run or a walk or a bike and feel your heart out. That’s part of what women are expected to do as well. I think a lot of men have this idea that we all talk deep about our feelings or wear our hearts on our sleeves rather than learn to independently process our feelings, and provide mutual support where needed which is the healthy thing to do.
But also learn to feel your feelings by yourself.
I agree completely with this stance
If you need to talk a lot about your feelings, especially the deep stuff, talk to a therapist. That’s not brushing you off, it’s what therapy is for.
While I agree that therapy can help a lot in those situations, I don’t think these talks should be limited to a therapist. I try to be somebody you can come to and talk about deep stuff for my friends. With one friend of mine, I mostly talk about deep feelings. It is great to have somebody like her, it’s a different category than therapy. A therapist shouldn’t give you his opinion and rarely shares similar experiences. Sometimes it’s just nice to have someone to talk to in a more symmetric way. For me it’s almost never a burden to listen to the emotions of people I like. I want to hear the deep stuff.
Sure a friend is not a replacement for therapy, but therapy is also not a replacement for a friend with whom you talk about deep emotions.
Same thing with other types of bigotry. The more people you know and/or have to interact with from different ethnicities or backgrounds, the harder it is to blindly hate them. You see this a lot in more diverse places like cities where they tend more progressive and tolerant. And you see the inverse in more remote or rural places that are often more homogenous.
I was married for 35 years. In that whole time, my husband had many female friends. It never bothered me at all., because i wasn’t jealous like that. I was never able to have male friends, though. That was always some kind of threat.
I always got along better with guys than women, so I was always turning down outings and ghosting people in favour of my marriage. Now, since we divorced after 35 years., I have no friends at all. He kept his girlfriends from high school (even marrying one within a year of our divorce) and I’m completely alone.
Seems fair.
This is fairly common imo. My (now ex) wife would have a problem with my all my female friends and most my male friends (especially unmarried men).
My social circle decreased drastically after I got married. But it wasn’t just her, 75% of women I have been in relationships with became hinderances to my other relationships.
Couldn’t agree more.
If there’s one thing I’ve observed over the years (mainly in professional environments) is that the whole “sausage fest” environment tends towards dick-wagging contests and other less that healthy macho group behaviours.
That said, one of the most toxic machist environments I’ve ever been in was a workplace were women were present, due to quotas, and management seemed to have chosen them on looks rather than competence.
I suspect that a healthy environment requires both genders present and without any perceived distinction in importance depending on gender. Specifically from my experience, women de jure or de facto present as a different kind of group member (such as being basically “eye candy”) isn’t going to do much to suppress unhealthy behaviours (it might hide some of the spoken stuff due to fear of legal/HR consequences but it won’t change people’s thinking and decisions anchored on that thinking).
I suspect the very same thing applies when genders are swapped - there seem to also be disfunctional group behaviours in all-women environments, just different from the male ones (less macho dickwagging, more intrigue and social cliques).
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It’s such a touchy subject because feminism definitely came about as a response to toxic masculine behaviors that have been around and are still with us. And while capitalism/toxic masculinity is to blame for most of men’s mental health problems, at the same time, I think there’s still been something of an overreach with feminism and there’s actually some aspects of Western life where women are at a definite advantage, namely in the Court systems when dealing with divorce and custody issues. Men and women in these spaces are not treated equally and it’s just accepted as “That’s how it is,” because we’re ok with going off of outdated ideas in that space.
Having said all that, I still don’t think it’s fair to blame feminism for men’s mental health issues, it’s more just a societal thing that men in general are really considered expendable and left to fend for themselves on most of their problems. While I think it’s gotten better over the years and it’s more acceptable to at least talk about some things, there’s still just a general apathetic attitude towards men’s mental health issues. Men/Fathers will often be relied on by everybody else in the family for all sorts of things, but who does Dad have to turn to when he has problems? Mothers are often placed on a pedestal, and that’s great for them, fathers though are just kind of… “Oh, it’s you.”
I agree with you fully. I am a feminist, and I absolutely agree that certain portions of our community has been co-opted by toxicity.
Yes, it sucks to be a woman, especially if you live in a region where you’ve lost access to your bodily autonomy, because that is the barest of basics for rights. It sucks getting paid less. It sucks having to maintain a job, maintain the household, be the responsible parent for getting kids to/from school/practice/clubs, etc. It sucks being the spouse that’s EXPECTED to stay home and forgo their career/dreams if a dual income household doesn’t make sense (childcare costs eat up a spousal income). It sucks being the sex that is more likely to end up abused/murdered/raped.
I hear all that. But I do believe that mainstream feminism has DEFINITELY crossed the lines in certain aspects.
I don’t think it’s necessary to jump all over a man’s comment when he says “I’ve never beat a spouse/I help out around the house” and reply with silly things like “nOt AlL mEn” and shit like that. It makes people feel unheard and undervalued. And if people feel unheard/undervalued, they are going to gravitate to where they do feel valued and heard.
That’s how we end up with manosphere bullshit saying things like “A woman’s pleasure isn’t necessary, but a man can’t think straight without it. It’s her role to keep you satisfied and fuck anyone else who says otherwise.”
“Looksmaxxing” is something that I’m also REALLY fearful of our younger male generations getting into, because it stems from “You wanna get laid? You gotta be hot or a woman will NEVER choose you. This is how you get hot.” And then it leads young men to picking themselves (and each other) apart physically to a really harmful level.
Ughhhh, I know I’m saying a lot here, but it’s because I do believe that certain traits of current day radical feminism are driving more and more youth to the Andrew Tates of the world, and that makes me terrified for our younger girls growing up alongside them, and how they’re going to be treated.
Women couldn’t get their own bank accounts in the US until 1970, radical feminism was necessary. But today, we have to make sure men feel comfortable talking to us/being supported by us/delving into their hopes and dreams without being like “Okay but it’s worse to be a lady”.
We have to support each other.
Very much agree with everything you said. As a man, having the patriarchy be framed as something that is harmful to men as well as women was a sort of revelation to me. When you’re depressed and have low self esteem it can be difficult to be accepting towards messaging that frames you as the bad guy.
It has taken me years to start to process white & male privilege as something independent of me, something that can be examined and acknowledged without destroying what little self worth I had. Coming to terms with my own identity and privilege has been (and continues), to be a long, difficult, and life changing process. I wish more people had empathy and understanding for that.
Even saying what I’ve just said feels a bit taboo. I can imagine many marginalized folks reading this and rolling their eyes saying “that must be so hard for you”. And I totally sympathize with that sentiment, I just don’t think it solves anything.
Bruh, I don’t think anything you said was “taboo” at all. Recognizing where our privileges and biases lie is the first step to becoming a better human being overall and its hard. I myself had to really look inward and recognize all the white privilege I’ve had growing up/still have today, and I grew up in a household with extremely racist/misogynist/bigoted/xenophobic views.
I can’t imagine having to tack on male privilege as well. You’re doing the work my dude. We’re all one step closer to truly seeing the actual human being in one another and uplifting one another every time someone does it.
And yeah, the patriarchy is a fucked up world to live in. Even not being male, a lot of us can see how twisted and reductionist it is to be told you’re supposed to want/need sex on a regular basis and that’s all you’re supposed to think about/cant control your urges, you’re not supposed to feel any emotion outside of anger so bottle that the fuck up, you’re always supposed to be the “provider” and fuck you if you can’t due to mental/physical health issues, and there are passions and pursuits you’re never supposed to have/desire because it’s just not “manly”.
Ugh, I’m sure there are more that I’ve just never even considered because I’m not a dude so there are challenges there that I’ve never faced /seen, but it doesn’t sound fucking healthy for anyone.
BUT! You also said something that I think is very important to hear: patriarchical society/white/male privilege is independent of you. It’s not your fault, and you didn’t do this. None of us “did” this. But it is up to us to challenge it when we see it, and support one another to bring one another up to the levels we’re operating at and demand better for us as a society collectively.
Wow thank you. Genuinely had a bit of an emotional moment reading this, I feel seen.
I’m sure there are more that I’ve just never even considered because I’m not a dude so there are challenges there that I’ve never faced /seen
Personally I think you covered it quite well. I think I’ve been fortunate in not having some of the more toxic expectations ingrained into me.
I grew up in a household with extremely racist/misogynist/bigoted/xenophobic views
Big ups to you for overcoming this. I was raised with all of that but very very tame and I sometimes think if I had been raised in an extremely racist household I would not be able to grow out of it.
I believe a lot of it comes from engagement-grinders constantly pushing rage-bait for clout and clicks. Gender war and revenge sells more than that hippie shit.
Oh I for sure think that rage-bait content farmers normalizing bullshit like this certainly accelerates the issues. Some of them I don’t even think realize how much they’re contributing to the downfall of society, like when Sneako was stunned when one of his younger (like 12/13 ish years old) fan said something like “Fuck women!” At a meet up. He was like “N-no. We love women!”
Of course, fuck him because it didn’t prompt him to change his content/he defended the kid, so he’s a piece of shit.
But I do wonder if any of them care/realize the psychological damage that is being done to their young fans. They’re normalizing some EXTREMELY harmful thoughts.
Also, yes, I’m very pro-hippie “EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY” shit 😂
who does Dad have to turn to when he has problems?
A big part of the slow burning men’s mental health crisis is societal expectations of men.
Boys are conditioned at a young age to start cutting off outward expressions of most emotions (big exception for anger though), stifling them and striving towards some kind of emotionless state. So they learn not to seek emotional support when they need it. And to make matters worse, this also sets these boys to grow up to be less dependable as providers of emotional support.
So men start to rely on the women in their life for emotional support, which creates unhealthy dynamics for many men who don’t have reliable women in their life, or forces them to depend exclusively on a wife for emotional support. Only having that one person, or zero people, in their lives that can provide emotional support is highly limiting, and can go wrong in all sorts of different ways.
Deep bonds in male friendship are important, but we’re raised without the guidance and skills to build and foster those bonds. And those friendships can inform how to have healthy platonic friendships with women, and how to have healthy romantic and sexual relationships with women, too.
That’s what toxic masculinity means to me: a societal expectation that men behave a particular way, and the negative consequences directly for those men and indirectly for the other people in their own lives, whether parents, siblings, spouses, friends, or children. We owe the younger men in our lives the opportunity to break that cycle and model what healthy behavior and emotions look like, so that they’re not carrying their own baggage into adulthood, middle age, and beyond.
Any time I’ve attempted to be “vulnerable” its ended badly, as have friends that have tried the same thing. Women talk a big talk about opening up, but the last thing they want is a man that can’t handle his own problems. Emotional support only goes one way from what I can tell.
Yes, that’s part of the societal expectations and conditioning that I’m talking about. Men are told to keep their emotions completely hidden by most people around them.
the last thing they want is a man that can’t handle his own problems.
It even sounds like you’re describing one of the things I was alluding to in my comment, that it’s stifling for heterosexual relationships when the man can only unload emotional burdens on their partner and nobody else. It’s a burden on both sides when that happens, and men need emotional outlets through diverse relationships in their lives with friends, family members, and their significant other.
I’m sorry that’s been your experience. I hope you find someone mature enough to handle the fact that men are humans and humans have feelings. It’s garbage that you’re held to these unrealistic standards.
court systems
The maternal advantage in family court is misunderstood. The vast majority of custody agreements are negotiated between the parents. So while there is a societal pressure to favor mothers, this is mostly a phenomena of parents hewing to that norm and not the government imposing it from above.
It may be true that a divorced mother or a lady felon enjoy some benefit from patriarchal ideals and norms. This is far outweighed by the harm patriarchy does to women (and men).
If you look at the “nurturing mother” norm in our legal system holistically, I think you’ll find that it burdens mothers with extra duties and responsibilities while stripping them of rights.
I feel like its safe (adjacent) to say that everyone is hurt, and the comparison of those hurts is counterproductive.
In cases where parental agreements aren’t worked out, a bias toward the mother is unfair. Any added burden to mothers while stripping them of rights is also not ok. To take it to a huge extreme: both men and women get raped. Men are mocked if they come forward and women are dismissed or worse. These are both wrong things. Deciding which is more wrong is distracting from the actual wrong thing: the fact that they were harmed in the first place and the authorities don’t take them seriously.
I feel like trying to frame men’s mental health issues as a problem caused exclusively by “the patriarchy and capitalism” seems like it’s trying to wash the rest of society of their own personal responsibility to contribute to making the world a better place for everyone. Patriarchy and Capitalism are just tools of the greater power structure of society, which we all have a hand in forming and perpetuating.
And let’s not pretend that the feminist movement’s tendency to pump out and empower misandrists and misandrist thinking isn’t going to have a negative impact men’s mental health, especially if we continue to hold feminism as a scared cow beyond reproach or criticism. And let’s not pretend the fact that we have the explicitly female coded “feminism” that opposes the explicitly coded “patriarchy” isn’t going to give people who don’t have a lot of time to philosophise an inherently combative view of the feminism.
It’s hard to buy into the whole “actually femismim is for anyone who wants equality” shtick when you’re working exhaustive jobs most your life and then you get exposed to the kind of feminist who says men might as well go extinct because they have sperm banks now.
Pretty much every problem we have in modern society stems from patriarchy and capitalism. It is the wrong tool for the job. Hang on… let me hammer in this screw real quick. It might damage the porch I’m building, but it’ll work I guess.
I don’t think this engages with the topic of men suffering under patriarchy.
Many men in society are deeply unhappy, in large part (i would argue) because they fail to live up to masculine stereotypes. Telling men who have shitty jobs, no friends, and no dating life that their problems are their own fault solves absolutely nothing and at worst further isolates and radicalizes them. Men suffer under the patriarchy too, and those who suffer most do not have the power to dismantle it.
I understand that telling people to be kind and compassionate towards people who perpetuate their oppression can come across as insulting but I genuinely think it is necessary. We cannot solve our problems simply by pointing fingers.
Just because patriarchy primarily benefits men, it doesn’t mean it’s all their fault. That said, it’s important to note that they stand to gain the most, meaning to get to the source you must identify and address those men than support it directly and out in the open.
You could say the same for capitalism. It mostly benefits those with capital, but literally everyone still struggles under such an economic system due to it’s core tenets of sacrificing personal well being and exploiting labor for maximizing profits.
Same goes for white supremacy. It mostly benefits white people, but it absolutely impacts them negatively, as well. Scholars will still tell you that white supremacy is defended and perpetuated by nonwhite people but the ones with the most power to defend and maintain systemic policies are typically going to be white (or funded by white people).
I don’t know how you dismantle a system without addressing it directly and understanding who it’s supporters are.
Pointing fingers is a necessary step in identifying the problem, and the problem is the system itself and the people who run it. You can’t have infinite growth in a finite system. It’s not logical, let alone possible. And since we are living in a patriarchy, yeah, I’m pointing fingers. It’s not men individually that are the problem. They are subject to the same stereotypical gender roles as women. It’s the archaic idea that men have to be the bread winners and protectors while the women stay home and pop out kids. It’s great for the economy after all.
The American Dream died when Reagan was elected, but for some reason, it’s still dangled like a carrot. The patriarchal society started when organized religion became a thing. The big 3 religions are patriarchal by nature. It’s written in doctrine. They have a lot of influence in politics. Christianity specifically. God said, “take of the earth. Go forth and multiply.” See? Capitalism is written into the very foundational teachings Christianity, a patriarchal religion, with more than their fair share of political influence. It’s too much stress for the human psyche to handle, and now there is a nation of people struggling to live up to standards that are complete nonsensical fairy tales. Not a good thing for mental health.
Patriarchal Capitalism had its run. Now the world is burning and flooding at the same time. It’s a failed system.
I generally agree with what you’re saying. Identifying who is perpetuating these issues is important, but I would argue understanding why they perpetuate them is more important. Patriarchy IS a problem, late stage capitalism IS a problem. But simply identifying those problems solves nothing. More important and interesting questions to me are: Why does the patriarchy exist and how can we dismantle it? And is there an alternative to capitalism and how to we implement it?
As much as I hate capitalism I have yet to hear a single viable alternative, I only hear how bad it is. Personally I think capitalism has incredible benefits for society and with regulation and an all encompassing social safety net is a ‘fine’ system.
Except that since our world is not infinite, capitalism will be the end of it. Corporate control and ownership of the country is what needs to end. Trickle down economics are a lie that just sucks the wealth out of our economy and puts it in the pockets of the wealthy elite. Because of this, our children will suffer the consequences for the rest of their lives, and their kids, and their kids, until there are no more natural resources, no more middle class, and no more breathable oxygen.
The only way to stop it is by taxing corporations at least 70% and shifting the control of these corporations to the state, completely outlaw all religious influence in politics, and redistribute the wealth back into the economy with monthly stimulus checks to all adult citizens. The taxes on corporations would be more than enough to pay for universal Healthcare, food for the poor, housing for the homeless, and free education.
So, either we need a modernized version of communism with protections in place for the populous, or we continue with capitalism and increase funding to social programs. That will never happen under our current system, so we are doomed.
Let’s be real. The Patriarchal Tier have agreed to commit global suicide because it’s time for women to take over via the Astronomically measured Yin Yang of LIFE. Men in Charge are refusing to hand over control and oil is the tool of murdering everyone. We’re all suckers of their infliction of death itself: OIL. Deadlier a Deity than even Mushrooms. Mushrooms have a choice. Oil will murder everyone.
What I’m really saying is that it’s NOT a failed system. It is committing the act it was subscribed to for exactly what it causes. Suicide and nothing else.
Make’s OP’s point the best description of what I’ve seen yet.
Thats a gross overgeneralisation
Yeah, they conveniently forgot to mention white supremacy.
Now, that’s like the trifecta of real 'merican values, right there - capitalism, patriarchy, and white supremacy.
Ok, it’s not exclusively the patriarchy and capitalism’s fault. Only 99.9% because we saw a militant feminist stand at a book festival once.
So you’re saying the conditions exist where men in their workaday lives don’t have the time or bandwidth to be aware of the positive messages in feminism, meanwhile radical and controversial feminist messages are put on blast so that everyone knows about that?
Brother, you are soooo close.
I’m saying it doesn’t matter in function.
If you actually care about dismantling toxic masculinity you’d actually take the time to understand men when they do speak out about the things that bother them, instead of trying to turn it around on these men being too ignorant because they don’t have the privilege we do to ruminate on society like we can.
Maybe if feminism could do more in their social circles to shut down feminist misandry before it becomes an issue for men, instead of reinforcing toxic masculinity by insisting men should just shut up and deal with it, then these men who are “trapped in the system” wouldn’t have these problems with feminism to begin with.
But I suppose as long as we can reaffirm our own perception of superiority towards these lower beings then we’ll be fine. Most of the male feminists I see are dudes who are comparatively well off to the average working man, and I don’t think that’s just random chance. It’s easy to be a male feminist when you are in the privileged position to philosophise, but I don’t think it’s fair to just expect men in disadvantaged positions in life to just eat the same blows we can shrug off.
I think you’re confusing ‘patriarchy’ with men in-general.
Of course it’s not men’s fault that society is failing them, but that doesn’t mean patriarchy isn’t a part of the systemic problem.
A big part of the suffering of working class men is inescapably about our material conditions, and the way in which society reinforces those conditions through gender roles. We can both have sympathy for those disenfranchised men and recognize the problem and where it lies.
Don’t worry, for better or worse men will get through this with or without feminist help if for no other reason than we have to or die, and personally I’m too spiteful to die yet.
Fuck off with that “they’re too poor to think” shit. I’m a working class male feminist and I find that patronization to be more insulting than anything else you’re alluding to. They’re shaped and insulated from realizing who their true oppresors are but they still have agency.
I am also working class and I understand that even in the same class circumstances can be vastly different.
Eh, I think posts like this missing the point - feminism has a lot of shades. Some of which are actively harmful to mens mental health, some of which are very supportive.
If it’s about everyone having the same rights regardless of gender - I think we’re all in favour. If it’s about elevating one gender over another to address historical injustice, then I think that’s where points of contention lie.
Let’s ask the real question - does it have to be a zero sum game? Can we have the former without the latter? Surely we can.
It seems society has to swing that pendulum as far to either side as possible every time.
Men the best! Women the best, men evil! Women evil, Men the best!
humans are so fucking stupid, collectively. we just repeat patterns over and over and over
There is certainly a branch of feminism that seeks to work to elevate women within the patriarchal/capitalistic framework, but I think that branch of feminism reveals just how dependent patriarchy is to capital.
When you are conceiving of an anti-establishment ideology like feminism, it’s a little counter-productive to divide that establishment into discrete pieces so that some elements can be ignored. If anything, patriarchy serves to reinforce capital as a secondary component: without addressing the mechanism of capital, feminism just becomes misandry.
Capitalism and secularism are the two main contributors.
Abrahamic market socialism would turn things around.
Men are the problem with men’s health.
As a man, the number of times I’ve been told, by other men, to “man up” when I’m struggling, is too damn high.
I think over the years a number of women have been very detrimental to my mental health.
See it’s funny to me because I’ve experienced more women propagate toxic masculinity than men.
Then you got the men hating feminists that make things more complicated.
No, no, you don’t get it, it’s totally women having rights that’s the source of all male problems
Some domestic violence centre near me got closed down because feminists kept protesting its existence.
Feminists got things to answer for.
Men aren’t always the issue. Men need male places, women don’t like that. Men can be victims, women don’t like that. What I seen in the world men are a lot more sympathetic to mens issue. Women just brush it off and say all mens issues are due to men and that really women are the victims.
Nah. Feminists didn’t create the mess that systemically harms men. What actually creates it is systemic patriarchy. If you’ve never heard of Earl Silverman, give his story a read. He did try to create many of the things you advocate for, and the things that caused their failure was not feminists. It’s a tragedy.
That being said, we absolutely still need non toxic spaces where men can heal and be great allies to themselves and others
Their point is that a lot of women, and possibly most women, are not feminists. Which means they enforce patriarchy, as do most people who aren’t feminists.
Equating women with feminists is dangerous and counterproductive
Equating women with feminists is dangerous and counterproductive
Duh. A lot of men like me are feminists. A lot more of them are ones without realising it.
Also no shit not all women are feminists. Phillis Schlafely, Amy Coney Barrett, and plenty of others. Hell internalized misogyny is a major topic in any modern feminist theory.
Feminism isn’t just telling women “hey do whatever you want” it’s saying “analyze your choices and behaviors and work to remove the systemic social barriers placed on you” and it often finds its pioneers surpassed in their lifetime. Many suffragettes were uncomfortable with women taking traditionally male jobs.
So all feminists have completely clean hands?
That’s the issue I’m raising.
As in the real world I’ve seen issues from women but not issues from men. But you go online and no women has ever done anything wrong and all men as bastards.
Not the case at all. I’m a big fan of bell hooks for example, but she’s not perfect. Still, she raises good points, like feminism is for everyone and that patriarchy can hurt men just as much as women.
Internet’s an echo chamber, so it’s good to get out and just talk to real people and ask them what’s important.
Feminism is too focused on women’s issues caused by men. If you want to talk true equality feminism is the wrong brand.
The truth is a lot of men have issues with women’s actions and that gets deflected as “patriarchy” and for something for men to solve. The suddenly women are not responsible for their actions.
Like say a women abuses a man. Feminist say “see this is the patriarchy in action. If men stopped with the patriarchy life would be better for everyone. Because then men could get help”. But when men actually try to get help they only going to get it from men. Women quite often say men don’t need it.
You should check out bell hooks sometime, she talks a lot about that! It’s a misunderstanding a lot of people have that comes from hot takes.
Despite the contemporary visionary feminist thinking that makes clear that a patriarchal thinker need not be a male, most folks continue to see men as the problem of patriarchy. This is simply not the case. Women can be as wedded to patriarchal thinking and action as men.
And this here highlights a core issue, the poor choice of language used to communicate the ideas.
Patriarchy and toxic masculinity, for example, are horrible terms for non academic conversations. The academics should have realized this long ago, and made a concerted effort to change the language into more gender neutral ones. The fact that not only has this not happened, but there is pushback on such suggestions, sort of proves the bias that does exist in this space.
Their poor choice of labels can only be expected to lead to the type of “man bad/woman good” thought process. Because outside of very specific academic circles, that’s exactly how those terms are read. When you read “toxic masculinity” you see “bad/broken men”. When you read “patriarchy” you read “men in control”, both terms are tailor made to lead directly to ‘blame men’ ideologies.
For a movement that, at one point, seemed very aware of & intent on changing language that reenforces old gender roles… they also seem to be fine creating and perpetuating language that actively reenforces those roles, when its men who’s roles are being reenforced.
I think a lot of feminists, hooks included, were pretty fed up with the academy. Their problem was that white upper class women were setting the terms of what feminism was in a way that excluded women of color who had also worked for many generations without being recognized. She was a supporter of using the term kyriarchy, which is more neutral and includes all structures of oppression.
That being said, I don’t think we need an academic interpretation to say fuck the patriarchy. It’s empowering! And for men too. We don’t need to wait for the correct wording to fight against it. We can be awesome allies and good to each other, because we know the systems of oppression we’re all fighting against.
Pretty cool strawmen you’ve made, lol
The post is very extreme. You only need one example to disprove it. It just marginalised issues and makes out they aren’t real.
I my life, experiences from my friends and many many stories online this will happen. You want examples find them, I’m not reliviing experiences for people this treat it like a game.
Some guy either says he doesn’t like how some women, even self described feminist, act. As they show a moment of weakness and a women uses it against then.
(Believe it or not this is a big issue. I guess you won’t believe it or won’t care).
Then when that is raised as an issue, women always deflect and never say it isn’t the women’s fault they say it’s mens fault for creating a system where women abuse weak men. But those men don’t get abuse from other men, this is the weird thing. Men will get abuse from women and support from men. But men are the issue.
Now how would that go about being fixed? This is an actual issue i know to happen. When I raise an issue like that, or someone else and what someone does is think it’s funny to make a meme about how guys hate feminist, feminists can never be wrong. But never ever do women take it as an issue that women need to fix.
Dude’s not gonna be happy when he finds out we’re calling his argument a strawperson now lol
Misandry and feminism are not mutually exclusive. One issue with folks who are patriarchy poisoned is they don’t accept help on the terms equitable to the people offering it. I see this a lot in my experience as a trans person. Every now and then I encounter a former right winger who wants to be better who looks at me as kindly life preserver to use to dig themselves out of transphobic rhetoric…
Which is great for them, self actualization for the win and all. But when they keep saying secondhand hateful shit - like supporting bathroom legislation or inferring that trans people are all child predators… That’s shit that uses up the energy I am using to keep afloat. If you set a boundry and someone keeps demanding you lower it to have “good faith” conversations at the cost of your mental health. Being placed in a position where you are suddenly the advocate for everyone of your minority is exhausting… And honestly people learn slow. They don’t want to be at fault for something so they will defend their behaviour to the bitter end and throw tantrums when you tap out… That is if they are primed to look at you as as and authority in the subject of being trans at all. When the programming they recieved is that you are delusional people are not primed to deal with your perspective as having any weight.
The thing about feminism is that it organized. It fought other groups of women as well as men. First at the negotiation table they became embattled over and over again. When you get rape and death threats for saying “hey maybe with could have more games with female protagonists?” then you are getting abused at a mob scale. That shit changes people. Some people who are abused become hostile ad a trauma response themselves and are not in a place to offer help. It takes strength for someone coming from a place of abuse to be in a place to be a good ally to people with problems that take logical leaps to empathize with. Not everyone has that but one of the things that helps is recognizing that someone is hurt and not looking at them as being a paragon of fairness and inclusivity. Some people need safe places to retreat to and heal. Some people never actually heal well. They are not your problem. If you waste energy looking to those people as your bar for ultimate acceptance you will only become bitter.
boll hooks
bell hocks
Probably nobody has completely clean hands. Are you suggesting that only perfect people can attempt good work and all others are suspect? What about redemption?
I’m saying women can be toxic. They can treat can treat men badly. They even claim to be feminists. But other women will never admit this issue is with women.
Instead they will say the real cause is the patriarchy.
All I can say is I’ve never, or at least can’t remember any mental health issues I’ve had or heard about men having caused by the patriarchy. Short term things like getting angry and fighting yes, but it’s only been short term shit that’s been resolved. Actual guys struggling with mental health that is due to a non family memeber from a person has always been due to women. But that isn’t a real issue is it? There must be something else causing it because women can’t ever be in the wrong.
Honestly fuck it. No one cares. This is why feminism doesn’t work between sexes. Men can’t have issues with women or the culture that women are responsible for. Women just want to be on the right side and they want men to be on the wrong side.
Some domestic violence center near me got closed down because feminists kept protesting its existence.
Name names. I’d like to know if they were actually closed because of protests or if the supposed protests were unrelated to them closing. Even if there were protests and they closed, those two events don’t have to be related.
I’m aware of historic examples. The person I was replying to was being vague about where and when their experience happened to perpetuate a narrative. By not naming names, we conclude that it’s a generalization. Even if it is true, feminism isn’t a monolith and this isn’t acceptable behavior. Educated feminists know that poor mental health for men only hurt their situation.
I agree with your point, especially “Educated feminists know that poor mental health for men only hurt their situation,” but it’s really frustrating to be told “This isn’t real feminism” when the harm misandrists do is very real. It feels like there’s a double standard - when men talk about the problems misguided or undereducated feminists cause, they’re told to be specific in their language and not to generalize. In the same breath, people who at minimum appropriate the feminist banner do a lot of generalization about men. You see it all over this site and in pop feminist circles, and being told “Well you can’t criticize feminism just because some people do it badly” leads to a lot of resentment.
It also doesn’t feel fair to say “Well they were being vague”. A lot of the harm perpetuated by patriarchy, misandry and other elements in society is amorphous. A lot of people don’t have an acute moment of pain - they internalize things over time, or have lots of small incidents. Getting hurt and being told to man up, being told that men don’t belong in queer spaces, or that all men are pigs.
People use vagueness to perpetuate broad generalizations for a narrative. A narrative they probably got from from some culture warrior youtuber. It’s how you can be dishonest without technically lying. You’re using broad generalizations to criticize broad generalizations. If you think you’re being attacked by broad generalizations, demand citations. YOU ask for specifics.
You did it to yourself = we don’t have to help or take responsibility
Men are also victims of the patriarchy and do not have the ability to magically dismantle it. What do you gain by having this attitude?
The comment explains the mentality, but is not advocating it.
I think you are replying to what you imagined my next sentence would be, rather than my actual comment.
Can you explain what you mean then? Genuinely don’t understand what you’re trying to say with your comment.
I was summarizing the way I perceive the sentiment of the post, in a way that I thought made my opposition to the sentiment clear.
I’ve seen too many feminist groups cheering male suicides to claim that they wouldn’t do that
One would be too many and it’s no surprise that there are some extremists who would believe this. So effectively your comment is empty and meaningless.
Jeeze yeah you solved it 👎
Think you missed the point of the post.
JEeZE YEah yOU sOLVeD it 👎
Eta: Can you make emojis big for extra sarcasm?
👎
Etaa:
🤯 IT WORKED!
Do you feel better having written that all out?
I guess so? I wasn’t really chasing catharsis, though.
Really, I just thought your response to blahsay was pretty funny, so I was just trying to enhance the humor by using a classic callback but with the added help of a mocking SpongeBob generator.
Everything after that was purely to satisfy a curiosity. On that part, I am quite satisfied!
Overall, I’d rate it a perfect 5/7
Haha, I didn’t realize you weren’t OP.
JEEZE YEAH YOU SOLVED IT 👎
And with that, we’ve reached the comedy rule of threes! Thank you for attending my TedTalk!
- waves to the mouse, stale piece of cracker, and doll made from loose hair and food wrappers from the cafeteria and then walks to the other corner of the cell -
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What is demanded of us is same or more than in non-feminist countries
Why are you being coy about which “demands” you object to? Unless you tell us what they are, they could easily mean things like “having to contribute to cooking, cleaning and child rearing” or “needing consent to help yourself to a woman’s body”.
I’m not sure if you’ve peered outside your little bubble lately, but more is demanded of women too. They’re expected not only to hold down a full time job but an entire career too. And oh look, they’re passed over for jobs, offered less money and forced to work twice as hard for recognition, all because of their gender.
So if you’re going to use the rhetoric of a bitter man-child who is upset their grandfathers “I work full time” excuse doesn’t work on people who are also working full time, you can at least pretend you’re pulling your weight first.
Because your comment isn’t just melodramatic, it’s outright bullshit.
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Guess what, those are actually part of the patriarchal stereotype of the ideal men (now rebranded as Alpha Men®)
Please circle the words “strength, good health and money” in the meme for us.
You made up your own interpretation, didn’t tell any of us what it was and then encouraged people to reject feminism because of it – exactly like my comment suggests.
When called on it, you just mashed some words together into a salad and pretended it was an actual answer. What is “strength” and how is feminism demanding it of you? What is “good health” and how is feminism demanding it of you?
Don’t feel the need to answer, since you made it clear that your actual reasons can’t be said out loud while “mask on”.
When equity feels like oppression, you’ve been the oppressor the whole time.
If you’ve spent almost all of history ahead, equality appears to be an attack.
Rethink what you’re saying.
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No, you already know it now, you’ve just gone off the deep-end into incel territory. Women have had it worse than men in the vast majority of societies in modern history, and continue to.
Like I said, you assume equality is an attack on your position, because your position is privledged.
It’s almost as if I’m back browsing Reddit again.
I’m so used to arguing with other leftists now, it’s almost nice to have someone waltz in that we can all be mad at together :)
I hear ya. Sometimes it’s hard arguing with people that can use logic and reason.
gotem
It is nice honestly – it’s a nice reminder that while we disagree, we aren’t that different. We agree on the basics. As opposed to the dregs of society we need to always unite against.
IKR. Lemmy is almost as racist, sexist etc as reddit now. It’s crazy.
Non-feminist views aren’t allowed on reddit any more. Haven’t been for some time
I have zero idea how that’s a problem.
I’m not surprised. That’s the problem with you. You’re authoritarian.
Oh no! You can’t display your hateful, backwards-ass views on someone else’s computer anymore? You’re SO oppressed. Oh, you have to compete in the workplace with BOTH men AND women now? Ugh, you poor thing. Women have a say in the the creation of laws and distribution of justice? You don’t say, how terrible!
You’re all annoying. Only I, pure of heart and spirit, lying on jizz-stained bedsheets, possess the requisite blah blah blah blaaaah
Being anti-feminist is a misogynistic and hateful viewpoint from a privileged group, so it makes sense to be against anti-feminism
real feminists arent demanding anything from men, they just want equal rights and that should already be understood…
Damn, thats such a sad comment.
Welp, I can definitely see what your problem is.
It was in you the whole time!
I guess men would perceive “less worth” now, compared to women … but that’s kinda how equality works. What sucks is that there is a “swing to it” that kinda hurts men, on an individual basis. Like custody rulings, or mental health care, for example. Because lo and behold, the patriarchy was never a means to lift men up, but an excuse to limit the power of those “not like them”.
The patriarchy is a system that hurts us all, while using women as the scapegoat. It’s a tale as old as time; using division to prevent union amongst the majority. (A lot more to that, but we’re skimming the footnotes here)
Fuck -ism’s… understand that we’re all bitching about the same things, and it all kinda boils down to a class inequality. Be kind, understanding, and unified. There are much greater things to tackle after putting out the small fires. Ya gotta start somewhere, but don’t be fooled into division. We all deserve equality and a sense of security
No war but the class war.
Wealth equality would objectively improve the lives of every single person, not just women or minorities, but every single person.
Fighting wealth inequality is the ultimate humanitarianism.
Username checks out, at least the first two thirds
