First all the bs with Twitter and Elon, then Reddit having an exodus to Lemmy (not complaining lol), then Twitch. Are we like, in an alternate self healing dimension or something?

  • Pigeon@beehaw.org
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    2 years ago

    This Lemmy migration does feel like waaaaay more positive of a result than I ever expected from reddit getting worse.

    I’ve always appreciated the idea of the fediverse, but mastodon and the twitter-style of social media has never appealed to me, and Lemmy used to be so tiny and niche, so I didn’t invest much time in it until now. But this sure is nice, comparatively. I’m probably on here too much though!

      • raiun@beehaw.org
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        2 years ago

        Mastodon has a place, just isn’t for some people. I found the same problem you had with it. Just like how conversations work better in a Reddit-like style of communicating.

    • JurassicPork@lemmy.one
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      2 years ago

      Agree with you on this! The migration was super smooth, and even tho, its still quiet small comparative to reddit… It seems to be growing quickly, and seems pretty polished for something in such infancy

    • sup@lemmy.ca
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      2 years ago

      I think we do have a sufficient number of users now to keep going irrespective of how reddit fares. Communities are beginning to form and even if there is no futher mass exodus from reddit, I think Lemmy will be fine and will see organic growth over time.

      I’ve already noticed I’m spending more time of Lemmy than reddit since the past few days.

      • 404name@beehaw.org
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        2 years ago

        It’s easier to spend time on Lemmy for me because the comments are actually worth reading. Seems like the type of person who’s drawn here are actually interested in holding a conversation vs. reddit where it’s about saying something witty or whatever to get them upvotes

  • lvxferre@kbin.social
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    2 years ago

    They saw Lemmy becoming successful, corporate mistook Lemmy with Lemmings, and decided to go out Lemmings style.

    …jokes aside, Cory Doctorow has a great text about that, called “Tiktok’s enshittification”. It’s a four-steps process:

    1. The platform is good for its users.
    2. The platform abuses the users, to be good for its business customers.
    3. The platform abuses the business customers, to claw back all value for itself.
    4. The platform dies.

    In my opinion it’s also the result of management being disconnected from the platform that it manages, and not knowing fully the implications of their own decisions.

    • sup@lemmy.ca
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      2 years ago

      Really great article. I’ve been hearing about it for a while, but finally managed to read through it fully. Very well thought out and a brilliant write-up IMO.

  • rnd@beehaw.org
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    2 years ago

    Some people have come up with the word “enshittification” to describe the basic cycle of modern web services.

    The cycle consists of three parts:

    1. You make the service that attracts new users by providing what they want. Often you do that at a loss, because your goal is to gain a big enough userbase for steps 2 and 3.
    2. Once there’s enough users, you shift to attracting commercial interests instead – vendors if you’re running a store, advertisers or celebrities or other “big clients” if you’re a social network, etc.
    3. Once both users and commercial interests are hooked, you can start tightening all the rules and switching completely to profiting yourself and your shareholders.
  • empireOfLove@lemmy.one
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    2 years ago

    All these websites have almost always been net cash flow negative. They bleed venture capital to provide a service below cost in order to build a user base.

    The problem now is interest rates have spiked. Rates have been basically zilch for much of the internet’s history over the past 20+ years, so sites could actually operate for quite some time on super cheap debt that they almost never had to repay. And venture capital firms would just keep pouring money into the “next best thing”.

    Now that debt is rapidly becoming much more expensive to maintain, and those VC investors want their chunk of the pie back in their pockets. And they are going to extract it from every single one of these centralized services by whatever force is necessary. It’s only just getting started, you watch.

    • spoonful@beehaw.org
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      2 years ago

      Note that they are cashflow negative because of expensive advertising features.

      Twitter is pretty cheap to run for base functionality and if you open up dev console and see all of the resources Twitter is requesting its like 90% ad stuff and suggestions.

      • argv_minus_one@beehaw.org
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        2 years ago

        That’s just bandwidth, though. What about database load? A big part of Lemmy’s growing pains come from slow database queries. It doesn’t take much bandwidth to send you the content, but the server has to do a lot of work to figure out which content to send you.

        • spoonful@beehaw.org
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          2 years ago

          Every request is tied to some functionality. Databases and storage is laughably cheap these days.

          The complex queries and all the overhead features is where the real expense is. Crafting a personal, ad-optimized timelines is what’s costing Twitter the most money. The public/subscribed feeds of mastodon are incredibly efficient even on something super slow like ruby on rails.

            • spoonful@beehaw.org
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              2 years ago

              Does it though? This instance has thousands of users and interactions already and is running on just few dollars a month.

              • argv_minus_one@beehaw.org
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                2 years ago

                It’s running on a few hundred dollars a month, if I recall correctly, and it has only about 450 users per day. (The sidebar statistics don’t include a figure for peak concurrent users, unfortunately, and that’s what we really need to know.)

                • spoonful@beehaw.org
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                  2 years ago

                  Ah didnt see that increase though decentralized systems are inheritly very inefficient unfortunately

      • empireOfLove@lemmy.one
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        2 years ago

        But advertising is also where 90% of their revenue comes from- so really, given the service is “free”, what is the product?

    • Phantom_Engineer@lemmy.ml
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      2 years ago

      You can’t lose money forever, not as a business. What’s great about the Fediverse is that it makes social media something that can be done as a hobbyist project. Money is nice, but the hobbyist isn’t necessarily out to make money.

  • effingnerd@beehaw.org
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    2 years ago

    I have a sinking feeling that these moves are not about money, but more about power and manipulation. If you squeeze these user bases such that the savviest users are forced out, those more likely to ask “Why?” about damn near anything, you will own access to a group of people that can be influenced to think/do/buy whatever the top management and/or majority shareholders want. If you lose a few million users, what does it matter if they were dissidents to your goals?

  • kamin@lemmy.kghorvath.com
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    2 years ago

    We’ve reached the end of the VC-funded golden age where they are all now demanding a return on their investment, hence why the screws are now all getting tightened.

  • WhoRoger@lemmy.world
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    2 years ago

    Everybody just wants money now. Some of that is reasonable, these companies tend to work if not with a loss, then with quite unpredictable margins.

    Now that tech investors have found a new bubble - AI - they are no longer willing to sponsor old-fashion internet stuff and wait if it ever turns a profit.

    Especially since many got used to becoming all that richer during the pandemic, and are looking to keep those numbers rising.

    But there’s also some sudden hatred of porn, and I don’t know where that is coming from. Tumblr, Imgur have limited it completely, OF wanted to, Reddit probably will, coedcherry shut down. The owner of coedcherry said it was really a sudden 180° turn of the banks to no longer wanting to do anything with porn, and nobody knows why.

    It’s especially bizzare considering how these platforms keep assuring us that we’ll still be able to post and see blown off heads and all kinds of other nasty stuff, it’s just the titties that are being banned! Eh?

    • Countmacula@lemmy.ml
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      2 years ago

      The porn thing comes from sex trafficking. No one wants to be caught accidentally financing it (as no one would ever want to because it’s Fucking horrible).

    • jherazob@beehaw.org
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      2 years ago

      I believe the porn thing is one specific religiously motivated American group pressuring banks and paying processors

      • WhoRoger@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        It does feel like it.

        It’s also a good excuse to introduce ever more surveillance. “To protect the children.”

      • WhoRoger@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        Interesting. There is some merit to it, now that I think about it, there has been some discourse regarding raunchy content in fiction.

        But I also find it hard to believe that there can be any strong relation between that and the larger push against anything AC in laws, regulations and from places like banks.

        Unless it’s something ironic - such as the people with enough influence being those who enjoy the content and being insulted by the pushback, so they decide to just destroy the fun for everybody. Considering how often we learn about the most adamant anti-XY regulators engaging in said XY, that actually make some sense. Just a throught though.

        Regardless, it’s weird. And it’s also extremely counter productive. Vilifying stuff like that only cases people who enjoy such content to dig themselves deeper underground. Which is a common line when it comes to all kinds of bans and cancelations.

  • Kevin Herrera@beehaw.org
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    2 years ago

    From everything I have observed, businesses are hunkering down for a recession in the next fiscal year. It explains the lay offs, the penny pinching, and puzzling decisions that look like business suicide.

    For services that are free for users, advertising revenue and investment fund raisers are the only thing keeping them afloat. With banks like SVB getting seized by the FDIC, it’s starting to scare investors. Advertisers are seeing the writing on the wall that people will stop spending as much as they used to. We are also probably seeing jacked up pricing across the board because businesses are taking what they can before it’s gone.

    So what’s left? Squeeze users for money. Additionally, shed users that actually cost them money and these tend to be power users. The question, which everyone seems to be assuming is a foregone conclusion, is if this shedding strategy will end up killing the service. In reality, we don’t know but the idealists would sure feel good if someone else ate their market share.

    I’m just glad that federation is picking up steam in the social media space.

  • Space Sloth@feddit.dk
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    2 years ago

    The twitter thing is sad, but honestly not a huge deal. I rarely used it anyhow.

    The reddit thing is depressing, since I’ve been a huge supporter and user of Apollo for many years. It feels like getting stepped on and I feel for the developer Christian Selig who devoted so much time and energy to the app.

    I hope nothing happens to Twitch in the way that Twitter and Reddit have though, the small time streamers I follow and support won’t survive a thing like that.

  • Mars@beehaw.org
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    2 years ago

    Their death is waaaay overdue. We literally jumped one cycle because the 2008 financial crisis and 0% interest rate.

    Now there is no free money, and they need to extract value to seem a good investment, so they canibalize themselves and turn into shit.

    Most of Elon stuff is doomed once reality catches on. Same with Uber. Same with streaming platforms. Same with Meta.

    Also there is a new/old boy in the bubble and burst town, Microsoft and their AI push. It’s going to destroy them pushing them into overspending to keep up.

  • Grizzzlay@beehaw.org
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    2 years ago

    Course-correcting, maybe? Web 2.0 really overstayed its welcome with Facebook/Twitter/Reddit being such dominant websites over the past 15+ years. Various reasons of greed, narcissism, and other factors finally popped the bubble.

    I’m really enjoying the Feder-verse or whatever we’re calling it since decentralization can prevent a lot of this nonsense from ever occuring. It feels like a new approach to the late 90’s era of message boards and such.

  • AnagrammadiCodeina@feddit.it
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    2 years ago

    The reality is that nothing is really dying and nothing is really changing. Twitter is still fully operational and other than a small hit nothing happened. Twitch already did a step back. For Reddit we’ll see but only a really small percentage of reddit is using third party apps.

  • teawrecks
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    2 years ago

    The twitter/elon thing is hilarious. I honestly do think he accidentally got himself into quite the pickle and now his pride is keeping him there. As for reddit and twitch, I don’t assume these are the surface-level-dumb moves that we think they are. My guess is that this is a calculated means of rolling out the changes they actually want by:

    1. overshooting
    2. letting everyone get mad
    3. backing off to their actual changes (or something close)
    4. letting everyone think they’ve won
    5. and finally push forward a bit more once everyone is preoccupied with the next thing

    Internet users love to cancel shit, but at the same time, are always looking for the next thing to cancel. So as much as people hate twitter or facebook or tiktok or youtube or windows or nintendo or chick-fil-a or whatever, they’re all just looking for an excuse to forget all about it, and continue using their product as quickly as possible. And corporations know that, so they’ve worked “giving them that excuse” into their plans.