JERUSALEM (AP) — The head of surgery at Gaza’s largest and most advanced hospital held up his phone Saturday to the hammering of gunfire and artillery shelling. “Listen,” said Dr. Marwan Abu Sada as fighting raged around Shifa Hospital.

  • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    Kinda similar to the “human shields” argument. When I read comics growing up, when a villain takes a hostage the answer was never “kill the hostage” except for the edgiest of antiheroes, yet here we are with “human shields” being used as a justification to kill civilians. It’s fucking wild.

    • ninjan@lemmy.mildgrim.com
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      1 year ago

      This exactly is my main gripe with how Israel is conducting this war. They’re completely unwilling to take any additional risk to preserve civilian life.

      • constate368@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Even the US sent troops in to kill a scumbag like Uday Hussein instead of bombing with an airstrike.

        This is just the Zionist creed of “unlimited Palestinian deaths don’t make up for 1 Israeli.”

          • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            They don’t care about Israelis either! They’ve killed a bunch of the hostages, and there was a lot of friendly fire at the music festival.

      • Glytch@ttrpg.network
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        1 year ago

        this war

        You mean “this genocide”. They don’t see civilians, they see targets for extermination.

      • TheYang@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Well, the US has shown that they couldn’t fight an insurgency with their level of protections for civilians.
        Makes sense that Israel assesses that they have less resources than the US, and thus can’t fight the same way and have a hope of success.

        Of course they could have used that as a pretty good reason not to start this war in the first placez but alas, they didn’t.

        • Goblin_Mode@ttrpg.network
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          1 year ago

          What argument are you making here? Your first paragraph implies you believe that Isreal is justified in it’s approach based on the US’s failed conflicts with Guerilla warfare. But then your second paragraph implies that Isreal is not justified for exactly that reason, which is like… Yeah… That’s correct lol.

          I feel like it shouldn’t be a controversial opinion to say that if you are unable to conduct a war without massive civilian casualties then you shouldn’t be conducting that war. If you do anyway you are, at the very best, a war criminal.

          • gravitasium@discuss.tchncs.de
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            1 year ago

            This is, actually, an absurd opinion. Massive civilian casualties are inseparable from war, and you will be hard pressed to find a war without them.

            The laws of war are built around, and exist because of, this assumption. They exist to give a framework that sets forth principles by which the loss of life can be evaluated.

            Otherwise, by your definition, every warring faction ever is a war criminal.

            • Goblin_Mode@ttrpg.network
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              1 year ago

              Wow, that is an insanely obtuse interpretation of what I said.

              Of course there are always civilian casualties In war. Of course that is why war crimes exist in the first place.

              “Massive” literally means “Large in comparison to what is typical”. So when I say massive civilian cassualties forgive me for assuming you’d understand I was using that word for it’s intended purpose.

              Bombing a hospital full of civilians is absolutely a war crime.

        • Count042@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Israel stated this war, at a minimum, 17 years ago. Blockades are an act of war.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          The US absolutely fought an insurgency. They just figured out they needed local support. They got it in Iraq, they didn’t get it in Afghanistan.

          That’s Israel’s biggest problem here. They’ve spent the last several decades making Palestinians hate them. So there is no possible way for them to destroy Hamas.

        • cogman@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Makes sense that Israel assesses that they have less resources than the US, and thus can’t fight the same way and have a hope of success.

          Israel has one of the most powerful militaries in the region, with 500,000 troops, a $20 billion dollar budget, and shared tech with the US. They have no external bases to maintain. They’re terrorists who live at the border in 140 square miles with roads Israel designed to allow their tanks easy access.

          In the first week of this genocide, Israel dropped more bombs than the US did during the entire Afghanistan war. On one of the most population dense regions in the world.

          But further, Israel immediately cut power and water to Gaza. 2 million people went without water and electricity to attack how many Hamas terrorists?

          And let’s be clear, this all happened because IDF forces were busy in the West Bank evicting Palestinians from their homes for settlers leaving the Gaza border unguarded.

    • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      I wonder if a lot of people’s idea of war has been shaped by the recent American occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, which were wars of choice where at least in theory American soldiers were fighting largely for the benefit of the natives. Countries that believe they actually need to win and don’t have the option of just giving up and going home fight wars in a very different way. Consider for example World War II, the proverbial “good versus evil” war fought by the generation that originally came up with the comic book characters you read about. The Allies certainly didn’t hesitate to kill enormous numbers of Axis civilians in the course of destroying military targets. (IMO the Allies actually went way too far and a lot of the strategic bombing of Germany and Japan served no military purpose, but I suppose they were more worried about bombing too little than they were about bombing too much.)

      • Nobody@lemmy.worldOP
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        1 year ago

        The total war tactics of WW2 are unthinkable by modern standards, but it’s hard not to sympathize with an outgunned army fighting for their home. They fight because they’d rather die than lose.

        Maybe instead of fighting people in that position, you talk to them and work out a peace deal. If they’re willing to be reasonable, end the violence.

        • fiah@discuss.tchncs.de
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          1 year ago

          If they’re willing to be reasonable

          they’ve shown time and time again, through actions and words, that they are not

              • fluke@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Didn’t happen in a vacuum though, did it.

                Do not confuse me saying that with sympathising with Hamas. It is possible to recognise that both sides have bloody hands, and have done for decades.

                • steventhedev@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Can you explain what you mean by “Didn’t happen in a vacuum”?

                  Best I can figure is that you disagree with the act itself, but agree with their motives or desires. But I really don’t want to assume, and would prefer to understand from you.

                  • Evkob@lemmy.ca
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                    1 year ago

                    If I keep poking you in the eye for decades, wouldn’t you eventually get tired of it and punch me in the face?

              • Count042@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                Israel attacked, at a minimum, 17 years ago.

                Blockading a country is an act of war.

          • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Now there is a conflict with no good solution available for Israel.

            There is, but it’d require gasp giving up on their expansionist ambitions, and the only one willing to do that was Rabin, who got assassinated for it.

              • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                As long Hamas is there, there is a security threat and Hamas can hide behind civilians. But even if Israel dismantles the current Hamas structures, in a few years they or something similar will be back.

                If the Israeli occupation of Palestine stops, Hamas will either disappear on its own, mellow out into a normal government or become just another terrorist organization like the IRA in Ireland. That’s usually how it goes.

                • Horst_Voller@feddit.de
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                  1 year ago

                  How long will the mellowing out take and how many Israeli civilians will die during that? Half of the people in Gaza were born after Hamas came into power.

                  Ireland is a viable economy on it’s own. The average education level in Gaza is abysmal, there are no resources, little farmable land,… There is no perceivable way for Gaza to function as a independent part of Palestine independent of either Israel or Egypt. So what’s the plan here?

                  Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza anymore. I don’t think anyone in Israel would support incorporating Gaza into Israel and grant citizenship to it’s inhabitants.

                  Just closing the border and largely keeping out there is what Israel did the last two decades and that is exactly what ended up in an unprecedented terror attack on Israeli civilians.

                  • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                    1 year ago

                    How long will the mellowing out take and how many Israeli civilians will die during that?

                    I mean we can look at the Irish government for inspiration. When you sign a treaty to end a century conflict you tend to be pressured by your people to keep it.

                    There is no perceivable way for Gaza to function as a independent part of Palestine independent of either Israel or Egypt. So what’s the plan here?

                    The Gazan economy used to mainly rely on cash crop exports, but we all know what happened there.

                    Just closing the border and largely keeping out there is what Israel did the last two decades and that is exactly what ended up in an unprecedented terror attack on Israeli civilians.

                    Just closing the border? At this point I find it hard to believe you’re discussing this in good faith, but anyway no, that’s not what Israel is doing. Gaza is subject to a land, air and sea blockade that makes it so, in short, Gaza isn’t allowed to have any contact with the outside world unless Israel approves it. That’s not keeping out what is there, that’s a military occupation.

              • theluckyone@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                If Israel continues to treat the Palestinians as they have historically done so, it’s likely there will always be a Hamas or their equivalent.