cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/24135976

Communities should not be overly moderated in order to enforce a specific narrative. Respectful disagreement should be allowed in a smaller proportion to the established narrative.

Humans are naturally inclined to believe a single narrative when they’re only presented with a single narrative. That’s the basis of how fiction works. You can’t tell someone a story if they’re questioning every paragraph. However, a well placed sentence questioning that narrative gives the reader the option to chose. They’re no longer in a story being told by one author, and they’re free to choose the narrative that makes sense to them, even if one narrative is being pushed much more heavily than the other.

Unfortunately, some malicious actors are hijacking this natural tendency to be invested in fiction, and they’re using it to create absurd, cult-like trends in non-fiction. They’re using this for various nefarious ends, to turn us against each other, to generate profit, and to affect politics both domestically and internationally.

In a fully anonymous social media platform, we can’t counter this fully. But we can prune some of the most egregious echo chambers.

We’re aware that this policy is going to be subjective. It won’t be popular in all instances. We’re going to allow some “flat earth” comments. We’re going to force some moderators to accept some “flat earth” comments. The point of this is that you should be able to counter those comments with words, and not need moderation/admin tools to do so. One sentence that doesn’t jive with the overall narrative should be easily countered or ignored.

It’s harder to just dismiss that comment if it’s interrupting your fictional story that’s pretending to be real. “The moon is upside down in Australia” does a whole lot more damage to the flat earth argument than “Nobody has crossed the ice wall” does to the truth. The purpose of allowing both of these is to help everyone get a little closer to reality and avoid incubating extreme cult-like behavior online.

A user should be able to (respectfully, infrequently) post/comment about a study showing marijuana is a gateway drug to !marijuana without moderation tools being used to censor that content.

Of course this isn’t about marijuana. There’s a small handful of self-selected moderators who are very transparently looking to push their particular narrative. And they don’t want to allow discussion. They want to function as propaganda and an incubator. Our goal is to allow a few pinholes of light into the Truman show they wish to create. When those users’ pinholes are systematically shut down, we as admins can directly fix the issue.

We don’t expect this policy to be perfect. Admins are not aware of everything that happens on our instances and don’t expect to be. This is a tool that allows us to trim the most extreme of our communities and guide them to something more reasonable. This policy is the board that we point to when we see something obscene on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com so that we can actually do something about it without being too authoritarian ourselves. We want to enable our users to counter the absolute BS, and be able to step in when self-selected moderators silence those reasonable people.

Some communities will receive an immediate notice with a link to this new policy. The most egregious communities will comply, or their moderators will be removed from those communities.

Moderators, if someone is responding to many root comments in every thread, that’s not “in a smaller proportion” and you’re free to do what you like about that. If their “counter” narrative posts are making up half of the posts to your community, you’re free to address that. If they’re belligerent or rude, of course you know what to do. If they’re just saying something you don’t like, respectfully, and they’re not spamming it, use your words instead of your moderation abilities.

  • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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    11 hours ago

    In principle, this seems like a solid rule change.

    However, considering that lemmy unfortunately has a large number of tankies, I could see how it could be abused lower the quality of discussion and spread tankie propaganda and genocide whitewashing.

  • HootinNHollerin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    24 minutes ago

    Props to those on smaller instances, especially communities. This space will be so much better when not dominated by just a few big ones.

    • Zaktor
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      11 hours ago

      Weirdly the ability for Lemmy to have many versions of the same community is both the solution to this policy change and the best argument against it being necessary. If the mods in one version want to be a fan club rather than a debate club, that’s not a problem because there are other communities out there. And at the same time, if World wants to mandate all communities be debate clubs, people can stop visiting World communities.

  • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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    17 hours ago

    This seems oddly timed with the whole meta thing going on.

    Are people going to be forced to accept ‘a small amount’ of, ferinstance, asserting that homosexuality is a mental illness?

    • Zaktor
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      11 hours ago

      I really thought this was satire.

    • zbyte64@awful.systems
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      17 hours ago

      Seems to me there is a big difference between attacking someone’s identity and claiming the earth is flat or marijuana is bad. The fact the mods don’t seem to address this is concerning.

      • jordanlund@lemmy.worldOPM
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        16 hours ago

        If you see offensive content, as always, report it, but the default position now is to respond with “No, you’re wrong, here are the supporting documents showing how wrong you are” rather than instant ban and removal.

        • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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          15 hours ago

          Look, I respect the intent, but as someone who’s been on forums since the freaking 90s, I can say with confidence that that’s a toxic meltdown waiting to happen.

          You need at least two bitter jaded cybersec experts and at least one game theory person on your team to stand a chance with this kind of thing.

          Can you provide supporting documents that disprove :nasty insinuation about you:? Of course not. Do you want to have to keep being required to? No.

          Can people provide supporting documents disproving :nasty insinuation about :demographic::? Also no. And they don’t want to have to keep being required to.

          So there’s the constant tide of exhaustion of people being constantly undermined and dehumanised, and being forced to either respond to yet another argument that :demographic: don’t really count as people, or to just let it ride and try to ignore it. And then the wreckers use it as rage-bait to get people angry to the point of getting banned, and others walk off in disgust, more trolls smell blood in the water and the whole thing spirals.

          It’s the damn nazi-bar problem: even ‘just a few’ nazis smirking in the corner create a hostile and unpleasant environment that other people don’t want to be in. And so they drive the good posters off, reducing the opposition - and within a depressingly short time, you’ve got yourself an alt-right shithole full of trolls and sociopaths that just love being able to exert that kind of power.

          I’ve seen it approximately three bajillion times so far, and god dammit why won’t you youngins learn.

          Yes, powermods and power-tripping mods are a problem. But the approach to it you’ve chosen was gamed out and defeated in detail probably before you were even alive.

          And oh god, if you try to parse a rule about what categories of opinions and statements are covered by this, the rules lawyers are going to clown-shibari the entire damn site.

          The only two rules I’ve ever seen be effective over time are:

          • Don’t make us ban you
          • Don’t make us de-mod you

          and probably hard-cap the number of communities one person can mod.

          Have other stuff on top of that, but they’re load-bearing and non-optional.

          And I get that the site is trying to be a neutral platform that’s insulated from the content, but honestly I don’t think that’s feasible. Sometimes you need to just throw people out of your bar regardless of the exact phrasing of the terms and conditions, and that means picking a side.

          Also can we have a better markdown parser that doesn’t turn angle brackets into failed html markup sometime please

          • perestroika@lemm.ee
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            1 hour ago

            and probably hard-cap the number of communities one person can mod.

            I would like to underline and emaphasize this one.

            As for the rule change in general (note: I’m from a different instance so it doesn’t influence me much) - it seems reasonable.

            If there is a community where a respectful disputation of facts - with sources to back it up - gets immediately resolved with a ban hammer, that community is not a healthy thing to have on an instance, so administrators might want to step in.

            Myself, I’ve noticed one such community on the “hexbear” instance. Got banned for explaining well-known historical facts, with references to sources and all. The reason: I was “reactionary” and only one narrative was allowed. If it had been on another instance, maybe the admins would have done something. But since it was there, there was no recourse except leaving.

          • Serinus@lemmy.world
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            14 hours ago

            A lot of that falls under “attacks on users” or “attacks on groups”. Of course we’re still going to enforce that.

            “Don’t make us de-mod you” is effectively what a lot of this comes down to. The goal is to be just a little less quick with moderation tools and, when we can, use our words a bit more.

            I don’t expect this to change much for 95% of communities. The ones that are really going to have to change are the ones with super fragile philosophies that can’t stand up to a single sentence of criticism.

            • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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              11 hours ago

              But you’re taking ‘don’t make us ban you’ off the table for the mods.

              “Oh no, I’m not attacking trans people, I’m just saying that children deserve protection. Surely you’ll agree there’s no rule against that?”

              Sealioning. JAQing off. Ragebait. That very specific, slightly-too-formal dialect of trollspeak. Shitty edgeplay designed to taunt and demoralise without ever quite stepping over any well-defined line, and a bat-signal to like-minded sociopaths that the dog is chained up.

              Hell, bluesky has been infested with LLM debate-bots recently that fucking automate the process.

              I suspect that you’re mistaking the symptoms for the problem: it’s not that mods are too quick on the button and need to learn to tolerate a little raw chicken in the mayo, it’s that some of them have been captured by corporate / PAC / generally-unsavoury interests, and use the button as a weapon.

              And to those people, there’s only one thing you need to say.

              • Serinus@lemmy.world
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                11 hours ago

                Mods are still generally going to have a lot of discretion. How often do you see admins get involved here?

                We’re not going to allow hate speech. This is fully intended to give us something against those who, as you say, use the button as a weapon.

                Give us a chance and let’s see how this actually plays out.

              • FelixCress@lemmy.world
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                8 hours ago

                Shitty edgeplay designed to taunt and demoralise without ever quite stepping over any well-defined line

                You could as well have said “I want to ban everyone who disagrees with me without them having any recourse”.

                Introduce rules disallowing lies (anything which can be proved as not being factual - hard facts rather than opinions) Nazi propaganda, illegal contents, post supporting genocide. This is completely sufficient for the vast majority of contents. You definitely should not ban users because they engage in what is in your OPINION “edgeplay designed to taunt and demoralise without ever quite stepping over any well-defined line”.

                • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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                  7 hours ago

                  Lolno. God, lawful-neutrals and their damn rules.

                  If you do that, they get to play the dictionary-definitions game and well-ackchewally at you indefinitely and demand you provide sources for the word ‘the’, while creating endless reports demanding people be banned because technically that’s not paedophilia that’s ephebepholia… or whatever the fuck.

                  It’s a game to them; all they care about is making a disruptive and unpleasant environment.

                  The only way to win is to not play.

                  When you recognise the pattern, you short-circuit the whole damn thing and just boot them out.

    • jordanlund@lemmy.worldOPM
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      17 hours ago

      Discussion about it started before the meta announcement, it just took time to work out the verbiage.

      • jordanlund@lemmy.worldOPM
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        8 hours ago

        The thing is, what is or is not a “mental illness” isn’t defined by you, or by me, it’s defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, written and published by the American Psychiatric Association.

        Homosexuality USED to be defined as a mental illness in the DSM III published in 1980, it was maintained in the DSM III R in 1987, and the DSM IV in 1994 and DSM IV TR in 2000.

        It was wholly removed from the DSM V in 2013, and frankly we should be ashamed it took that long.

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_DSM

        Calling it a mental illness now, in 2025, is at best “quaint”, and at worst materially and factually wrong.

        • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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          7 hours ago

          And you’re still entertaining the discussion, still kicking it around and keeping it alive, debating the merits and acting like it’s a topic worthy of conversation. Look at you looking up specific definitions and the history of the DSM.

          Even knowing it was an illustrative example of trolling, you still got trolled by it.

          That’s the entire game, and you willingly, nay triumphantly played it. I bet you’d bd willing to argue it back and forth for pages, giving it a little more legitimacy with every word.

          Do you see the problem now?

      • FelixCress@lemmy.world
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        8 hours ago

        When procreation is achieved from a man and women one could argue that it could be a form of mental illness

        Say what now?

      • hungrycat@lemmy.world
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        13 hours ago

        I’m responding because I think you prove the point that there are situations where this policy does not work.

        This is not the proper forum to be having a “discussion” like this, because there is no proper forum to have a discussion like this. The misuse of the term “mental illness” is a nonstarter. Mental health disorders become mental illness when those disorders begin to consistently and negatively impact an individual’s emotional, physical, and/or social functioning. Simply being homosexual does not do that. Prejudice associated with, and stigma attributed to, homosexuality are the root causes of mental health issues among homosexuals.

        Incorrectly labeling homosexuality as a mental illness must be rejected outright and provides no room for further discussion.

      • TheBananaKing@lemmy.world
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        15 hours ago

        Ah yes: just asking questions. Just a point to consider. Just my opinion.

        Unlike on TV, if lawyers pull the inflammatory-question-in-front-of-the-jury trick twice, they get in serious damn trouble with the judge.

        There’s a reason judges get absurdly free reign in their own courtrooms, because if they don’t, this shit gets weaponised.

  • WatDabney
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    15 hours ago

    Huh… that’s disappointing.

    It was entirely predictable from Vichy Twitter and Meta, but I didn’t expect lemmy - even .world - to kowtow.

  • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
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    14 hours ago

    When I saw the original announcement from LW admins, I was extremely surprised find that I, with some reservations, agreed with it.

    Lemmy definitely has a problem with single-viewpoint moderated communities. I am banned from some anarchism communities because I came in and did exactly what Serinus described, gave a point of view that poked a hole in the only officially allowed narrative, and I definitely have observed particularly on lemmy.world moderators who are very unapologetic about banning people who try to poke a hole in the only allowed viewpoint. I don’t think anyone on a social network should be in the business of policing the allowed points of view. You can kick out the agreed-to-be-obnoxious stuff, and there’s going to be a big grey area there, but once you’ve come out with it that you want to allow side 1 but not side 2, in my opinion you shouldn’t be a moderator anymore.

    Of course, announcing the policy and implementing it are two very different things. Implementing it perfectly will be impossible. Also, there are people who use “poking a hole in the only allowed viewpoint” as their excuse for being an absolute knobhead, never shutting up, and being hostile and disingenuous. (Depending on who you ask, I might be one of them.) I’m a little bit suspicious of how well lemmy.world is going to implement this extremely-difficult-to-implement policy change. I was sort of expecting it to be some kind of red herring which was forbidding moderators from dealing with trolls or propagandists when they found them, though. It still might be that in practice, of course.

    But overall, I was more than a little surprised when I read a LW moderation policy announcement and found it describing a genuine problem and a pretty credible attempt at a solution. I don’t even know if the communities I was thinking of while reading it are still around and still doing their thing, but if they are, it’s a problem.

    • jordanlund@lemmy.worldOPM
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      12 hours ago

      In the World community, I am not shy about removing comments and banning users pushing outright propaganda, such that the Ukrainians are Nazis, Gaza is not undergoing a genocide and Chinas persecution of the Uyghurs is at best just a wacky misunderstanding and at worst Western propaganda against the wise, benevolent CCP.

      But when I do that, I cite my sources.

      • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
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        13 hours ago

        Yeah. It makes a big difference what communities and what type of “poking holes in the narrative” comments they are talking about. It could be a way to crack down on fake leftist communities that will ban you for saying Biden has been raising working people’s wages for the last four years, or it could also be a way to force you to accept misinformation because banning it would be against “free speech.” I wish they had listed some specific examples.

    • Zaktor
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      11 hours ago

      Lemmy definitely has a problem with single-viewpoint moderated communities. I am banned from some anarchism communities because I came in and did exactly what Serinus described, gave a point of view that poked a hole in the only officially allowed narrative,

      You sound like a troll who went to the anarchism community for the purpose of starting an argument. “Debate me bro” isn’t a personality that should need to be supported by topic-focused communities.

        • Zaktor
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          5 hours ago

          I don’t even know what his belief or the prevailing narrative of the community is. He sounds like a troll because what he described is trolling. He “came in”, implying it was his first or nearly first post, and immediately wanted to “poke a hole in the narrative”. That’s classic trolling.

          • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
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            49 minutes ago

            Sincerely expressing your actual viewpoint, which disagrees with the community’s consensus viewpoint, is classic trolling? And then explaining why and asking questions about what people mean in their disagreements with you? You gotta update the urban dictionary and all, they’ve got it all wrong.

            I’m a little hesitant to restart the drama, but if you’re curious, here’s what happened:

            https://slrpnk.net/post/14823401

            https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/30753583/14479446

            You can draw your conclusions about whether or not I’m a troll. I will take no questions and reply to no comments attempting to restart the debate. I do think it’s semi-on-topic to discuss one specific instance of when this type of “you’re not allowed to moderate that way” policy might have been a good thing, but an extensive argument about whether I should have been allowed to say those things in that specific instance is not.

            I’m also fascinated to discover that the person who’s been swearing to me recently that Wikipedia is evil, NATO is evil, Russia doesn’t care about Greenland and Trump’s desire to invade them is no big deal… was way, way back at the time when this happened, out stumping for the Green Party in the anarchism community and being protected by the mods while doing so. That is fascinating.

          • FelixCress@lemmy.world
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            5 hours ago

            No. That’s what is called a “discussion”. As opposite to a “echo chamber”.

  • jordanlund@lemmy.worldOPM
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    17 hours ago

    Please note, this is a lemmy.world change and applies to all lemmy.world communities.