• TSG_Asmodeus (he, him)@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      So, correct me if I’m wrong here, you make fun of European countries for giving anyone who lives there and has enough talent the chance to improve themselves to literally a world-class level?

      but then their internal policies attack non-white people.

      Did you like… miss this part?

      • Hugh_Jeggs@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        Their internal policies attack everyone, including me, regardless of my skin colour. I’m an immigrant too, and face multiple problems just by being the wrong nationality

        It’s too easy to blame racism for that which can be explained by overworked officials having to deal with hundreds of thousands of immigrants from every corner of the globe just trying to get ahead

          • sudneo@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            The American racial dynamics are completely different from european ones. Please don’t try to apply one to the other, it’s a bad take.

            I would say that European immigration policies are xenophobic, but it doesn’t have to do with skin color or with racism. Albanians, Romanians, balcan people in general suffered a lot of discrimination (and to some extent still do) as there were huge migratory waves in the '90s, and they are all white, just to make an example.

            • supergirl@programming.dev
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              5 months ago

              I would say it partially has to do with race (in the sense of skin tone). Depending on where you are in Europe. In very “white” northern countries, just having brown skin can easily get you lumped in with all other people with brown skin, regardless of ethnicity or place of origin. Reactionaries will call you a filthy immigrant all the same, even if you’re born here. But in southern Italy, the natives are often not easily distinguishable from middle easterners or northern Africa anyways, so discrimination is mostly of national origin, language, and overall cultural identity.

              But both will discriminate against eastern Europeans.

              • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                5 months ago

                I think you do have a point, and I would say it also depends a lot. Even more, this shows how little it makes sense to talk about “in Europe” as if it’s a uniform thing.

                Immigration policies are completely different and many countries have also completely different histories. Take France for example and see how their colonial past made them paradoxically more multicultural than other countries, where black people are maybe at 1/2 generations max (with all the consequences).

                I would say that now discrimination against Eastern Europe has toned down a lot, which is…about time.

                • TSG_Asmodeus (he, him)@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  this shows how little it makes sense to talk about “in Europe” as if it’s a uniform thing.

                  Sure is.

                  The American racial dynamics are completely different from european ones.

                  I would say that European immigration policies are xenophobic

                  This is what you’ve been responding to this entire time:

                  image

                  To anyone reading this, this is textbook red herring fallacy. He’s changed it to ‘xenophobia and racism are totally different’ and then went mask-off with “In Europe something like black lives matter (and the reactionary all lives matter) do not exist because the societies are different.”

                  • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                    5 months ago

                    Sure is what…? Sure is a uniform thing (Europe)?

                    Also no, I have been responding against comments that specifically made a point about European policies being racist.

                    Also what mask? What the hell are you talking about, I am trying to explain to a stubborn american who can’t accept the world being a little different from their own country that different countries have different issues.

            • TSG_Asmodeus (he, him)@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Albanians, Romanians, balcan people in general suffered a lot of discrimination (and to some extent still do) as there were huge migratory waves in the '90s, and they are all white

              Are you doing a semantic argument about this, or…? Sure people from the Balkans can be ‘white’, but how the fuck does that mean there’s no racism involved? Because sometimes rich white people also target white minorities? What the fuck is this take?

              The American racial dynamics are completely different from european ones.

              What? What even is this argument? We’re a global society, people move around constantly.

              I would say that European immigration policies are xenophobic, but it doesn’t have to do with skin color or with racism.

              What are these takes, honestly? It’s not racist, it’s just about their… being not white? (Or being from a different land)

              • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                5 months ago

                Are you doing a semantic argument

                Yes, if you wish. The difference between xenophobia and racism. If there is no racial motivation and there are extensive demonstrations of discrimination against people of “same race” (you minimize with “sometimes”, but this is not sometimes, balcan migrations were The Migrations until 20 years ago), then what’s the point of calling it racism?

                What? What even is this argument? We’re a global society, people move around constantly.

                And? This has literally NOTHING to do with what I said. In Europe something like black lives matter (and the reactionary all lives matter) do not exist because the societies are different. There are different minorities, in different amount, with completely different societal issues, history etc. Reading all the world though the lens of american society just doesn’t work.

                It’s not racist, it’s just about their… being not white? (Or being from a different land)

                If you don’t get the difference between racism and xenophobia, consult a dictionary. They are two words with 2 different meanings. The general discrimination of “other” people has to do with protecting your wealth (or tradition, culture, etc.) and with classism.

                  • sudneo@lemm.ee
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                    5 months ago

                    The movements are basically nonexistent. Have you read your own article? Have you read the part where in the 4 (out of 27?) countries studied there were completely different issues pushed and dynamics happening (look at Poland vs Italy)?

                    Also the article is from 2021, and mentions that the movements is at the beginning. Is the movement still active? Are the issues the same as the main BLM?

                    You really think that googling “blm in Europe” and posting the first (and only) article you find is a gotcha? Jfc…

          • Hugh_Jeggs@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            Cool so you’re saying my problems as an immigrant don’t matter

                • TSG_Asmodeus (he, him)@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  It’s just not your day/week/etc is it? I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone shoot 0.000 in reality, that’s impressive. (I’m Canadian.)

                  Tabarnak, ce n’est tout simplement pas votre jour/semaine/etc. n’est-ce pas? Je ne pense pas que j’ai jamais vu quelqu’un tirer 0.000 en réalité, c’est impressionnant. Putain, les anglos sont lents. (Je suis Canadien.)

        • corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
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          5 months ago

          I’m an immigrant too, and face multiple problems just by being the wrong nationality

          I was a white immigrant to America for a while. I can confirm, based on what I felt and what I saw, that white immigrants have a far, far easier time of it than Asian, African or Latin immigrants. We’re “takin der jerbs”, still, but we somehow don’t make it obvious when we’re walking around and, I dunno, don’t somehow rub our job theft in the noses of the guy would who wouldn’t do it anyway, or something.

    • Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      I’ll correct you, you’re wrong here.

      1. That’s such a twisted misinterpretation it tells us all about your warped mind.
      2. A lot of people compete in the Olympics for a country that isn’t where they actually get their training and opportunities. NBA players for instance, playing for their birth country.
      3. Nobody said anything about taking anything for free, but that’s most commonly practiced by the wealthiest people in each country.