Original by u/Oncefa2 on Reddit. Still very relevant today:
This is something I noticed in a thread where men were asked what it meant to them to be a man.
There was only one response, which could probably be summed up as, “meh”.
And I honestly think this is how a lot of men feel.
You are yourself first, but also you’re a man, if you’ll even admit to it.
Women on the other hand seem to be proud of their gender and actively celebrate their womanhood. You see this in popular media and on places liked Twitter. And it even shows up in psychological association tests. Women are associated with traits like “good” and “valuable” whereas men are associated with traits like “bad” and “worthless”.
Men are never told that they can be proud of who they are. And many are made to apologize just for being alive. Instead of celebrating men, we attack and demonize them on a daily basis. And I think this difference in treatment and identity has an overall negative effect on their mental health.
Society thinks we are useless, and it is time for a change!
Counterpoint: Being proud of something you did not choose to participate in is a post-hoc rationalisation and just a bit self-delusional.
The statement: “I am proud to be a man”, makes as much sense to me as “I am proud to be right-handed”.
I am proud of several achievements in my life and ashamed of my behaviour in others. A statement I assume applies to most people. My gender has nothing to do with either.
I do not take credit for the achievements of others of my gender (or of the right-handed…) the same way that I am not responsible for their crimes.
Humans, by our social, tribal nature, love to divide the world into in-groups and out-groups usually to the detriment of all.
Being gay or trans is also inherent, and because of societal push back, we’ve decided that being proud of those immutable attributes is appropriate. Masculinity gets a bad wrap in a lot of ways, and the healthy expressions of it should be something to be proud of, in my opinion.
Good point but Lgbt+ people have been shamed and criminalised for simply existing for centuries. Their use of pride is in reaction to that imposed shame. The black pride movement in the 1970s is the same, a group rejecting an innate trait as a reason for shame.
While males have been the dominate gender for basically all of recorded history. While aspects of male behaviour have come under, in my opinion, much needed scrutiny in recent times, I think talking about the issues of males violence (against man and woman) and other problematic behaviours needing to change is a long way from telling a gay or trans person to stop existing.
Is it really true that men have been the dominant gender for most of history though? As I understand it, men and women have both been subject to rigid gender roles that they could not choose or get away from, so overall it was equally hard on everyone. It is just that with the advent of feminism, the struggles of women have received more of a focus.
men and women have both been subject to rigid gender roles that they could not choose or get away from
Very true. But you must also consider that while the role in society for pretty much all people in pre-modern life was rigidly defined, in all cases that I have read about the role of women was much more constrained and restricted.
To give a specific example from a period I studied.
The life of a peasant man in Tudor England was rigidly defined and pretty much at the whim of his Lord. But inside his home he had the same authority over his wife and family. The average man had little rights, the average woman had none.
That’s bullshit
In no way we’re women more socially constrained than men, at any point in history
Simply look at all the male deaths. You’re putting that against your perception that women weren’t allowed to leave the kitchen (which is wrong) and just completely dismissing all of the far, far worse and more burdensome things men were expected to do under threat of violence and death
Adding on to this, it’s also weird to me to never hear class or race acknowledged in their one dimensional view of history as something that solely benefited men at all times. Like are they gonna seriously argue the black men who were literally hunted down and tortured for sport in American history were still somehow above the white women sitting comfortable at the sides?
Apex fallacy and basically patriarchy theory, which we know to be wrong
A very few men had power in the past, as did a few women. To blame men as a whole is the same shaming bullshit that you justify lgbt people having pride for, contradicting your whole point.
I’m not keeping score here. Even if I were, I wouldn’t argue that men have it “as bad” as these hyper-marginalized groups. But I do think that there are positive and healthy aspects of masculinity that should be celebrated and that we should be proud of. Just like femininity.
This…
People should be proud of accomplishments, not of a participation prize.
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Seeing someone who perceives a double standard and immediately calling them an incel runs counter to your argument. That basic lack of empathy is part of the problem. This is the kind of demonization this post is talking about.
We don’t use incel as a slur here, nor do we use the toxic term ‘toxic masculinity’ unironically here. Comment removed.
Men often define themselves and what it means to be a mean in negative terms.
Even when you try to frame it positively, being a man is less about being that good thing and more about calling something else bad, and trying to force people not to engage in that thing or risk their manhood.
For example, there were times when men were secretaries, nurses, teachers, etc. by a vast majority. In each field, as soon as a critical threshold of women entered that work space…men fled the field.
I agree that something needs to change, but it isn’t going to happen by trying to increase pride or whatever. It’s going to be slow incremental efforts amongst multiple men to undermine the voice in their head telling them they’re weak or feminine or whatever for engaging in normal human behavior.
I notice a lot of vague/personal language being used. “Men”, which men? “Society”, which one? “We”, who is we? So I can only give vague responses.
I rarely use my gender to identify myself, but when asked I say I am a man. Proudly.
I understand why some men/boys would feel shame, my own shame came from my failure to treat others fairly/respectfully.
I don’t experience that shame anymore now, back then at that stage in my life I was guided by men who had my best interest in mind, but cared little about the values I deemed important.
And now I believe that if you behave in a way that is in accord of your own values, you should have no shame.
