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The sequels aren’t bad because they’re woke (are they woke, though?), they’re bad because they’re bad.
For example, I think Daisy Ridley played the part very well, and the character fit in the overarching universe. But the plot was awful and predictable.
And somehow Palpatine returned.
These memes always rub me the wrong way. First, they’re making fun of hateful Star Wars fans, which is great. But they’re also ignoring just how bad the sequels were. Make no mistake, they were BAD.
This, heaven forbid a fan who legitimately wanted to like the movies just didn’t like them. No problem with the time skip, the actors, love interests, etc. the plot just sucked, the story was haphazardly thrown together. Disney wanted to cash in on nostalgia and pumped out 3 movies with no prior planning or guiding direction between the films. But if anyone complains they’re being hypercritical, or racist, or sexist, or doesn’t appreciate the spirit of the movies. Fuck that, at least Filoni is slowly fixing it. Stomach literally sank when I learned he wasn’t in charge of the acolyte in some form.
But, and I don’t understand why people act like this isn’t true, but the other SW movies are also BAD.
Like they were good perhaps when they were released, which was way before my time, but the story and dialogues was just as bad then as it is today. It must have been the novelty, but they were never ‘good’ movies. Space soap opera at best, prequels taking themselves too seriously, but nothing more.
Episode 7 is still good. Is it a rip of episode 4? Sure. But it’s still actually fun to watch, with good pacing, and good characters.
Also, Kylo stopping, and holding, a blaster shot mid shoot is fucking cool!
The biggest problem with episode 7 is that it gives us “Empire vs. Rebels 2” which i hate as the direction for the future that episode 6 set up. The second biggest problem is its a bunch of mystery boxes with no plans to back them up i.e why is Rey important? Who the fuck is the green goggle lady? Why is Luke a hermit? What is the purpose of the map to Luke? Who fucking cares cause JJ sure didn’t
But it’s still actually fun to watch, with his pacing, and good characters.
I disagree with all of this.
Eight was half of a good movie. Seven was a series of vinettes of varying quality that ended in disappointment.
7 is fine, 8 is better imo, 9 is atrocious. If they were able to just make 9 decent the sequels would be acceptable. They really, really needed to have these movies thought out from the start though. You can absolutely tell they have no idea where the story goes from one movie to the next.
It’s so fucking cool… and makes no god damn sense whatsoever. Especially when you realize he’s supposed to be some hotheaded half-trained guy who probably has undiagnosed ADHD. He couldn’t concentrate enough to do that if he was sitting meditating in the most serene place in the galaxy, much less in the middle of a trainwreck that the scene took place in.
It was unimaginably forced with no basis in plot or the established universe.
Which pretty much speaks to the entire direction of the sequels in general. “Ooh, pretty… but super fucking dumb”
That Kylo scene is my favorite ever display of using the force. It was so fucking awesome and ominous and powerful.
Finally! All the complaints about the plot essentially being a redo of ANH are completely valid, but they don’t make it a bad movie. It’s actually fun to watch and the characters have some character, which is not something you can say about a certain crowd favourite around here…
Not a big fan of Star Wars (I know right? Why would I mention that here) and even I got to admit that laser holding scene was badass.
There was some social commentary in that golden casino planet where the rich lived in excess while the poor barely got by (pay no attention to the Jabba behind the curtain)
And, of course, they cast minorities in leading roles!
Lando Calrissian deserved more screen time in the original trilogy. He was an incredible character.
There was some social commentary in that golden casino planet where the rich lived in excess while the poor barely got by (pay no attention to the Jabba behind the curtain)
Good world building, but it did nothing to move the story forward. The entire casino planet could have been cut and the story would be unchanged without any social or story impacts.
If they were going for social commentary, they could have set it up to find out that rebel weapons like the X-wing fighters and whatever macguffin they needed so save the main plot line were built by slave labor.
Semi-evil procurement character: “Yeah, I understand what you need. I can have it built in a day. Its an extremely toxic manufacturing process and because I’m not set up for that work, 20 or 30 slaves will die but thats no problem. Yeah, I can get it for you in the day you need it.”
They would have had to make a choice between save the slaves or getting the macguffin. They could have still chosen to not come away with the macguffin because they chose to save the slave labor and at least that would have given purpose to the whole distraction of that storyline.
And, of course, they cast minorities in leading roles!
I liked that part. John Boyega, among others, was a great actor. Kelly Marie Tran did as best she could with the bad writing.
Oh noes. I need to go out and buy some pearls to clutch.
Star Wars is about as a woke as it always has been. Some people are mad about strong female roles when the first movie that came out in the 70s and every after it has had strong female roles.
I’m guessing these same people aren’t big fans of Aien
There is a difference between well-written female characters that also happen to be strong vs hollow, soulless, undeveloped charachters whose only defining feature is being a “strong female character”.
See the difference beetween Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, Leia, Padme, Rita Vrataski, Gamora, Nebula, Naomi Nagata[1], and so on vs Galadriel (rings of power), Capitan Marvel, Ironhearth (MCU), She-hulk and whatever happened in Star Wars Acolyte. I could go on like this for a long time, but I think that you get what I mean already.
[1] I even included modern examples, to highlight that it’s not old good, new bad
Palpatine was supposed to return. The clones eventually were turned into a way to let Palpatine jump bodies. But in the immortal words of the Matrix, “Not like this. Not like this.”
I was genuinely shocked to see how good an actor Hayden Christensen was when he wasn’t in a Star Wars movie.
I didn’t know he has been in any other movies.
Off-screen. Like all the great moments…
Gotta get that sexy JJ magic box plot to get all the kiddies hooked without doing any legwork!
That’s one of the things what’s good about The Boys. Show it to the audience, not tell them.
“Hey guys, so I just did a bit of returning off screen and made 10,000 death star ships”
Somehow… eh? Let me tell you about Darth Plagueis the Wise and his asshat of apprentice.
But yes, even a grade school pupil with crayons could have it better explained.They removed Finn from the poster for the Chinese release. Star Wars is not and has never been “woke”, Disney always just does what makes them the most amount of money.
of course the movie franchise about killing space nazis famously had no woke agenda whatsoever until they gave a woman a laser sword
I know right? Fucking liberals.
Misogynists hated Leia back in the 70s, too.
I was too young to have to listen to their shit then though.
If by “hated” you mean “wanted to bang” then yeah.
One often fuels the other
Obligatory “just watch Andor” comment.
Seriously. Go and watch Andor. It proves that good Star Wars content can be made. It has a diverse cast. You just need good writing and a vision. That’s what’s missing from the new content.
But I don’t want quality content when I open up a Star Wars series. I want the same old Republic vs Empire setting, some easygoing action with light sabers, bit of humor, a couple of furry characters and plot holes I can drive a truck through.
Edit: make that a barge. I want to drive a barge through not a truck.
I felt like Andor was pretty dang boring… Loved Rogue One, though.
I’m good thanks. I’m not subscribing to s streaming service where the business model is pumping out content faster than the competition
The new show isn’t great for reasons other than Disney being woke.
I feel like a lot of “woke” shows are not great, but they get a cult of defenders and haters boosting it’s popularity because of some perceived culture war. When it’s really just execs trying to make their
milk toastmilquetoast slop shamelessly appeal to a wider audience.No one complains about Spiderverse (after it came out) because it was good
Bigots aside, I’m convinced most people are 100% fine with queer and gender non-conforming characters so long as they’re well written.
People like characters that act like actual people – not pandering, one dimensional, rainbow capitalistic tokens.
Like how Marvel writers lately keep saying they’re getting hate for writing strong female leads, when really they’re getting hate for writing idiotic Mary Sue’s.
The standard for a Mary Sue character has gone way up too. The Japanese really figured out the formula with isikais where the protagonist is almost always good at everything or OP in some way, but the writing/world building is better. There are enough gems amongst the garbage that people know what a good one should contain now.
while not movie media, the same can be said with games. BG3 is blatently woke, hell the emperor blatently hits on the player regardless of gender and other elements. Elden Rings mythos is basically full of woke elements (Marika creating Radagon, who is basically herself, but in Male form to get into a romance with Renalla. just on this element alone, it is either considered trans (Marika having a clone who changed genders) or lesbian (if you choose to believe Marika is always female and trans not being a thing) as the relationship with renalla happened.)
while there will be people who will complain about it, if the contents good, people will overlook it.
Totally, the other thing both of your examples did well is actually integrate the “Woke™” elements into their world in a natural and believable way. None of it unearthed established canon or went out of its way to score rainbow capitalist diversity points
milquetoast btw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milquetoast
confusing isn’t it?
Thank you my dude 🙏
I prefer milk steak.
I don’t like the visuals of Spiderverse
Some people say all art is subjective
They are wrong, like you!
i dont like food
I’m pretty sure the defenders are 99% bots.
I saw someone saying the little girl who played princes Leia is a “national treasure” on reddit. I don’t think a normal person goes around talking like that.
I liked Obi-Wan because I liked seeing Obi-Wan hit Vader with a lightsaber and Corran Horn being semi-canonized
Everything else is irrelevant.
That’s great and fine but you can apply this meme to every new show 🤭
There’s a pattern.
My entry point into Star Wars was KotOR so I’ve always been pretty critical of the average Star Wars media. I really enjoyed Rogue One, Andor, Mandalorian S1&2, and Clone Wars S7. Star Wars can deliver sometimes.
With a budget of $180M I was hopeful that Acolyte could be great, and it hasn’t delivered yet.
It’s on a positive trajectory however.
What does this mean, you admit this particular show is not very good but might eventually be good?
This stupid woke/dei shit is just the culture war du jour, if the product that was being released was excellent, there wouldn’t be as much fuel to call a show bad for whatever reason.
But as the previous poster noted, there have been properties that were celebrated on release because they are good. The first Mandalorian episodes meet a near orgasmic fervor.
Acolyte at best is maybe just ok to not very compelling imo, that’s up against the other now recent star wars properties like Andor, which is and was critically acclaimed. The argument just falls apart when you use an objectively not very good show like Acolyte.
I mean the shows premier was a rocky start but it’s getting better. I think it’d a decent set up. Even the first three episodes of Andor were pretty slow. You have to set the stage. Introduce the characters. The plot. The season is going to be good, I’m very sure.
It’s a CW level show
Fair points, all of them, I’ve heard from a friend that the most recent episode is excellent. I’ll keep giving it time.
On the one hand I don’t mind some new interesting plots involving same sex partners or similar. However, I agree with you that modern studios are forcing the issue to the point that it ruins everything.
For as schlocky of an adventure the OT and Prequels were, they still drew on real world inspirations. The OT pulls inspiration from WW2 and the Vietnam War as the backdrop, a small rag Tage group of guerilla style freedom fighters fighting off the highly militarized empire with weapons that can destroy entire jungles I mean planets in its path.
The Prequels, for as bad as the dialoge was (because Lucas was surrounded by Yes Men instead of people who actually knew how to cover his weaknesses), was about the decadence of the 80s and the exploitation of the labor of 3rd world countries (see the disparity between Anakin being a slave on Tatooine and Padme being a queen of/senator for Naboo), in phandom menace, which quickly shifted focus to the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and how republics, like the Roman Republic, and Weimar Republic became the Roman Empire and Nazi Germany, and how America was following the same path.
And this isn’t really some reading between the lines speculation, George Lucas has said that these real world conflicts served as inspiration for the movies. Could it be post hoc rationalization? Yeah it could be, but it’s kinda hard to make those justifications even years after the movies have been released.
The sequels just aren’t pulling from any relevant sources. It was all nostalgia bait without any substance the first order is literally just Hugo boss wearing good stepping nazis 2.0, aka The Empire Again, the New Republic narratively exists only to be blown up by The Empire 2.0, everything is “Look its just like the Original Trilogy!” and it all lacks a cohesive vision and an actual hero’s journey for someone to go through. Like everyone has great setups, a rogue stormtrooper, an ace pilot for the rebellion and a girl who survived childhood gathering scrap from dangerous derelict. And they just all get sidelined for all the nostalgia bait.
in phandom menace, which quickly shifted focus to the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and how republics, like the Roman Republic, and Weimar Republic became the Roman Empire and Nazi Germany, and how America was following the same path.
Sir, The Phantom Menace was released in 1999
The first WTC bombing was in 1993, and Oklahoma City was 1995.
America has been on the path for a while though, with the John Birch Society and the like working from the background. They’ve been around since the 1958, and lots of their literature and networks fostered the turn. Others like Bill Cooper, Alex Jones, etc, were active in the 90s and affected by JBS. Waco also had already ocurred.
OKC has some influences from Cooper, and the JBS and other right wing people initially thought OKC was a huge setback for inroads with general audiences, and kept working to change how people feel. Tea party was a huge comeback for them, as people who knew of the JBS warned the Tea Party was just a resurgence.
I don’t know if Lucas or other writers knew at the time, so you might be right. However, there were people warning about it back then, just not really heard or paid much attention to.
Hot take: Star Wars is not sci fi. It’s space western at best.
The originals were fantasy. I’s not a hot take, it’s fact - Swords, wizards, castles, knights, the heros journey. Some of the other shows and media since departed from that. Mandelorean is a western, solo was a heist movie, and most the shows don’t fit the fantasy tropes that well. None of Star wars, to my knowledge, fits sci fi at all.
The Thrawn book trilogies are probably the closest I’ve found to Star Wars being sci fi. There is a specific focus on real world physics in a way that is very absent from everything else Star Wars especially when they write about space battles. Only things that stay firmly fantasy and require that suspension of disbelief are, of course, the Force and Thrawns preternatural ability to read an enemy’s battle tactics from their species artwork
It’s funny/weird that Dune is much more “more fantasy than sci-fi” than Star Wars, but somehow it’s still considered one of the greatest sci-fi stories of all times.
maybe, just maybe, there actually isn’t that big of a difference between sci fi and fantasy
Eh. Speculative fiction is different from magical realist revanchism in a lot of critical ways.
But they both routinely serve as metaphors for the modern era.
Well, Dune at least does a half-assed attempt at explaining how this is a projection of a possible human future. Star Wars didn’t.
That being said, I wouldn’t call Dune “crunchy” sci fi at all. It’s a perfect example of why fantasy gets lumped in with sci fi so much (which, honestly, I hate)
Dune is more theological fiction than fantasy or sci-fi.
Mandelorean is a western
It nakedly and obviously cribs from Seven Samurai, The Good The Bad And the Ugly, and Wolf and Cub.
so red rising is fantasy and not sci fi?
Dont know what that is, tbh. I lost interest in the series after Disney kept doing their thing. I can’t speak for any of the new stuff from the last few years.
it’s a completely unrelated novel series. set in space and clearly sci fi, but has castles, dueling, war games, and peasants
Red Rising isn’t hard sci-fi, but it is more notably sci-fi as a series after the first novel and the weird little obvious Hunger Games sequence ends.
The combat-oriented Golds are also an obvious ripoff of 40k Space Marines and the author absolutely betrays the overall message in the third book but that’s not related to the question, I just hate that he did it.
There can be peasants and feudal social classes in sci-fi. Sci-fi explores how society will react to future events and technology, but you could absolutely have a, for example, post apocalypse sci-fi novel about knights fighting over fiefdoms with swords in the ruins of Earth.
One of the reasons Star Wars gets criticised for not being sci-fi is that the science just doesn’t matter to the story.
You could have told the exact same story with samurai/warrior monks, horses, and wooden sailing ships, so the science is an aesthetic, not a plot element.
Like, they have a literal slave race of androids, fusion, FTL, everything, and it just doesn’t fucking matter. There isn’t a robot uprising. Everyone’s poor for no discernable reason, despite AI being a thing and the society effectively having unlimited energy, etc etc etc.
Red Rising might have had their weird little Youth Death Tournament but there was a point to the society doing that, to create a militarised group of the next generation of the ruling class.
Why is there poverty in Red Rising? Because they’re eugenics powered space fascists and it’s a control mechanism.
Why is there poverty in Star Wars? Because Lucas apparently never considered it should be anything else.
Oo that’s fancy! Thank you for sharing
It very much sci-fi fantasy. It’s the tech level, availability, and the fact that universe used is literally a galaxy where people actually travel to other galaxies (using spaceships with some very fictional abilities). Kamino is in a minor galaxy that is close by and you see Luke and Leia on a ship with a unspecified galaxy out the view port in the background.
Other tech that puts it into sci-fi: controlled plasma blades, neurally connected prosthetics, bacta, droids, weapons with stun and kill, repulsors, reactors for personal ships, energy shields, hyperdrive, industrial cloning.
I’m sure there are other good examples as to why it qualifies as science fiction. If Star Wars isn’t in a sci-fi genre, then Star Trek is a political drama.
To me, Star Wars is a fairy tale in space.
arguably the space part makes it sci fi
Why does every idiot who is not a Star Wars fan think that repeating the normie stereotype about it is very smart? Which is this pic BTW.
Star Wars since the OT and till around 2006 had very clear borders between, 1, that which doesn’t get mentioned, but follows from what’s shown, 2, that which doesn’t get explained, 3, that which is explained by magic, 4, that which has decent, but very roughly cut sci-fi descriptions and, finally, 5, that which is taken seriously.
Disney doesn’t understand how to use any of these categories, especially that core plot points can only belong to #5, that #1 is not just fan imagination, but part of the paradigm, that #2 is not a box for everything lazy, that #3 cannot be center of the plot, and that #4 is still necessary.
To answer your first sentence. Perhaps it to try and show an interest in something you like.
Yes, only it’s generally unpleasant to say condescending stuff of the “I’ve got you figured out and I see this thing deeper than you” kind to someone who’s very well familiar with the thing in question when you are not.
And in personal experience
to try and show an interest in something you like
people ask questions.
Perhaps with #2 and then #3 before #6 we could all be happy and all violence in the world would be finally over.
What’s #6 ?..
The only one after #10
I’m trying to get your joke here, because in my comment the connections between numbers and rules were given in the paragraph previous to the one with # notation.
I’m making fun of your comment as it doesn’t make sense.
Well, it does, and when a comment does make sense, but not to you, and instead of asking where you are wrong you are trying to make fun of it, it just means you are a clown.
Well I tend to be a little crazy so clown is probably not that far off
My shoes:
Watched Episode 7 yesterday.
That was from 2015??? Nearly 10 years ago, which is completely crazy.
Really interesting how it is newer than Episode 3, but uses all of the Episode 4-6 style.
The music sucks, but the visuals are very nice. I love how they made the Lightsabers and Guns so much more realistic.
I remember episode 8 or 9? Where literally every scene was stolen from Clone Wars. That was a bit lame.
Also crazy how their cast is still 80% male. I always wonder if people would be shocked if it was 80% female…
The music sucks
You take that back. John Williams is an international treasure, and the only aspect which was consistently good throughout all nine films. Rey’s theme, March of the Resistance, and Jedi Steps and Finale were all stellar in my opinion.
It was clearly phoned in work that leaned heavily on previous themes.
Sorry I overthink it. Just the general impression was… kinda random?
Like many tracks in important moments were not memorable at all.
Omg
Force Awakens will be closer to Revenge of the Sith next year
I do miss being younger and happier.
No I miss old star wars content. Specifically where Luke and Leia make out and where exactly George was going with that shit.
Jokes aside, pronouns is the dumbest possible hill to die on with regards to the starwars universe. OF COURSE gender is going to work differently when you put a bunch of wildly different species together. Gender dimorphism is not some universal rule the rest of the galaxy has to follow. Hell, sexual dimorphism isn’t even universal ON EARTH. why the fuck wouldn’t you run into a them or xir every now and then? What about those bug people from clone wars? You think bug people are gonna have mommies and daddies or what?
It does feel a little unnatural when they force the inclusion of some lesbian couple for the sake of inclusion. I don’t have a problem with that but don’t force it. Let the story develop over time where it feels natural. You don’t see rushed straight relationships in Hollywood.
You don’t see rushed straight relationships in Hollywood.
You may want to sit down now, because if you like, I can gather a list of all movies whose script contains the line
“and then the hero gets the girl despite there being no perceivable chemistry or other factors they have in common except him being the main character and her being The GirlTM in the movie. They kiss. The End.”
Bold of you to assume we were ever happier.
Star Wars is now the schlocky, uninspired, cheesy “sci-fi” that the original Star Wars killed by changing the whole genre back in 1977. It’s time that the next George Lucas emerges and ends the travesty that is Disney SW. I don’t see it happening with the risk-adversity of modern Hollywood.
I mean, George could’t even edit his first film right and got way too much help from who was around him. When he got famous and nobody could talk down to him his movies got meh at best… and jar jar at worst
So you’re saying GL isn’t really the guy who was responsible for “a new hope”?
I’m saying the ideas were there and the work is its child for sure, but he had a lot of help from great minds of the time. A movie is not just made by the director, and if his/her voice is too strong it will kill the talent around him. That’s what I think happened after his success
and jar jar at worst
🤣🤣
Why do people defending Star Wars keep shitting on sci-fi and fantasy? “It’s just a movie about space wizards with laser swords” they say, as though having fantastical elements negates all criticism.
The original trilogy isn’t schlock. It’s fun, relatively lighthearted adventure in a fantastical setting. It has its flaws, but there is genuine artistry there, and it resonates with people because of that.
And even if I am looking at classic Star Wars through nostalgia goggles, that doesn’t invalidate criticism of new Star Wars stuff. Rise of Skywalker is a train wreck of a movie all by itself, no comparison needed.
Science fiction is primarily a form of social critique and commentary, according to the Titan, Professor Isaac Asimov.
Coming from a childhood raised in the deeply conservative Southeastern USA, SW felt like a validation of belief in religious magic, patriarchal paternalism, and accessible exceptionalism from hard work.
Before the information age, these ideas were far less clearly false. Now I see the parallel in religion as a toxic dead mythos, misogyny in western culture, and propaganda of a feudal death of democracy.
While I long for the nostalgia of the past, shinning a more modern perspective on that past reveals hideous flaws. The framework is dead to me, but admitting such a reality to myself is to give up a part of my childhood.
How is star wars woke. Woke is a social construct conservative people use.
That’s the joke. It’s not really a criticism. It basically implies Peter is being racist.
I suppose it would be a very boring movie if all actors were just asleep the whole time.
