We keep 10,000 chickens in a single huge building whose floor is literally layers of their old shit, give them just enough room to stand there and not move around, and leave it there without any environmental controls through the hottest days of the year. What do you mean disease is prevalent?
Don’t forget that we also feed the cows the chicken shit to cut costs!
You’d think the disease couldn’t handle these conditions.
Then, when you try to legislate any kind of standard for humane livestock treatment, the farmers throw a hissy fit and block all the roads with their tractors.
Also featuring angry people because of a possible increase in price for meat/dairy.
Was that due to animal welfare regulations? Thought it had to do with regulations favoring mega farms and forcing small farms to stop.
It’s because of all kinds of things in different places
It wasn’t. Hes being deliberately deliberately disingenuous
It’s not possible to produce the amount of meat needed to feed our massive population while treating animals humanely.
There are really two options to deal with this:
-
Most humans in the world become vegan – sounds great but it’s not gonna happen
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Reduce our population to sustainable numbers (by eliminating the driver of the population explosion, i.e. fossil energy) – maybe also not gonna happen
Edit: What (do I think) will happen? We’ll continue as we are now as hundreds of billions of animals are tortured until our civilization collapses. This will happen because we were all brought up under a state and told that defending ourselves, our communities, our animals, is wrong and illegal.
False dichotomy here. Americans could certainly reduce their intake of meat without going full vegan. Regulations could be created to treat livestock more humanely without completely eliminating factory farming, which yes would increase prices, which would probably also reduce meat consumption somewhat. Also population growth within the US has dropped off quite a bit and is projected to further decline.
You’re right, to some insufficient degree, but that’s like reducing your meth habit.
-
also “meat eaters: 😲”
But but there is no ethical consumption under capitalism so that means I shouldn’t even try
Meat eaters: 😲🍗🤤😫💦
No, I’ll just pay the extra cost.
also “Me when I see a post critical of the meet industry getting upvotes: 😲”
As a meat eater, it’s shit like this which is why I’ve been buying more vegetarian shit. Every week there’s a new food recall. People are getting real sick and dying.
Same here. I tried out blackbean burgers, plant-based hot dogs, tofu and almond milk in my last couple of grocery runs, just to see what’s up. Turns out I really like tofu as a substitute for ground beef, and the veggie dogs tasted just like all beef franks to me. And none of these things were any more expensive than meat, so that’s also a big plus.
Which veggie dog worked for you? I can’t find one that grills correctly.
They’re from “Morning Star Farms,” though I was careful to only say that they taste right, haha – They don’t plump up when cooked, and are prone to scorching in spots on the grill. But the flavor is spot on!
deleted by creator
True, but meat-based hot dogs are typically fully cooked and so only need to be warmed, too… Grilling is just kind of a fun activity for me, and it adds a little snap and smoky flavor that you can’t get by boiling them. That said, grilled veggie dogs were a little different, but still pretty good!
If you can find some TVP in the shape of a steak, that stuff is also insane to me.
Like, I’m kind of not qualified to actually compare it to a steak, but my body instantly gave me that vegetarian gag reflex when I first had it, because it has that same chewiness.And yeah, it’s really cheap. You can just have it in your cupboard for an eternity. And to prepare it, you just boil it in salt water / stock for a few minutes, press out the water and throw it into a hot pan to sear it like a steak.
The Maillard reaction does its thing and somehow this chunk of goddamn defatted soy beans does not taste healthy anymore.Also making seitan from flour is super easy. If I could get my hands on pure gluten it would be insanely easy. Maybe not as rich in taste as soy meat, but so much cheaper than store bought meat analogues.
Same. Me too. When i buy meat, then it’s only organic and the best ethical treatment I can find. And also waaaaaay less in general. It just became bad in every sense of way and plant-based stuff has gotten so much better over the last 3 decades.
Only thing that pisses me off is that the food my food eats is even more expensive for no apparent reason (edit: yes ofc i know the socio-economic reasons. As a consumer i just don’t care. That’s what i meant)
Meat and dairy are heavily subsidized by the government (at least in US). Government subsidies for animal agriculture allow them to sell for cheaper because they can sell for less than what it actually costs to make.
I know. Same here. Probably the same everywhere. But still pissing me off
There’s nothing ethical about exploiting and slaughtering an innocent living creature.
I’m not implying anything about your diet, just requesting you break free from the ‘muh local farm humane’ propaganda and stop deluding yourself.
I know. I was an animal rights activist once (in a time where “vegan” was either an insult or noone knew what it even was). Based on way too much knowledge about what we do with other beings.
And i didn’t say “it’s ethical”, but a local farm where the cows got names and live a great life (up until they stop doing so) surely beats industrialized farming ethically. I doubt you wanna argue there, except you only can live in a binary world (harm/don’t harm) . But that would be impossible as a vegan. Unless you’re one (i just assumed) because it’s fashionable or trendy or just edgy.
Btw something being “humane” doesn’t really mean anything ethical. Being sadistic shit-sticks who rape the whole planet raw until there’s nothing left is actuallly very “humane”. No other species is that horribly aweful.
As an ex meat eater, this is what made me eventually go vegan
Yeah, okay buddy. I suppose next you’re gonna tell me climate change is real, huh?
This should read as:
Regulators: allows the meat industry to put creatures in the filthiest conditions possible
disease starts spreading and affecting the industry
Regulators: 😧
More like:
Meat industry: lobbies regulators and focuses on profits above all else despite every warning against it
disease starts spreading and affecting the industry
Meat industry: 😮
This is spot on. The meat industry for years has been trusted because of regulation. The moment you take away regulation you take away trust and start a race to the bottom. Ask any of these other deregulated industries:
-News and Television -Deregulated in the 90s
-Boeing and commercial aircraft - Merged unchallenged in the 90s and the FAA allowed “self reporting”
-Banks - Deregulated in the 90s.
This really should read as:
Republicans defund regulation budgets to appease meat producers’ donations.
Regulators: “there’s three of us”
Meat producers: “we have no incentive to follow existing laws and standards which were lax as hell to begin with.”
It is in part a consumer issue. Consumers want things as cheaply as possible, and companies that produce as cheaply as possible sell more product. We’ve seen the same issue with apparel; America wants cheap clothing, and so the mills in the US have largely closed, and most production has been moved overseas in order to make the final products cheap enough.
And while it’s partly a consumer issue, the fact that wages haven’t kept up with productivity–that is, more and more money is being skimmed out of the system by investors and executives rather than going to the workers–has been the driver towards making consumer goods more and more cheaply, simply because people have less purchasing power.
Consumers have limited visibility into the conditions under which their products are made, and consumer behavior does not always result in the most desirable outcome for the public. Which makes it a regulation problem. That’s why regulation exists.
Consumers have limited visibility into the conditions under which their products are made
This is by design.
Limited visibility, limited comprehension, limited attention, and limited risk aversion.
Just because something is expensive doesn’t always mean that the standard of living of those making the product is any better. Nike sweat shops for example.
Consumers dont have a lot of transparent choices here. Governments have roles in regulating and making the true cost of products more transparent. I’d say businesses have that responsibility, but clearly that doesn’t work, otherwise we wouldn’t be here etc. Businesses dont want people feeling guilty when they buy their product, so why would they tell people.
For a business to be competitive in a harm free supply chain, then the playing field needs to be levelled. Transparent supply chains everywhere, make everyone feel guilty all the time, maybe something would change.
These problems are not all the fault of either the producers or consumers, we’re both part of a fucked up cycle within an exploitative economic system and influence each other.
It doesn’t make any more sense for the consumer to wash their hands of all blame and consume without concern and push all the blame on the producer than it does to say it’s all about our “carbon footprint”.
I thoroughly agree. Which is why we need governments and regulation IMO. Consumers are working in a vacuum of knowledge, businesses are not incentivised to give said knowledge.
Just because something is expensive doesn’t always mean that the standard of living of those making the product is any better.
Oh, absolutely. But when mills, etc. are in the US, there’s more direct control over the living conditions of the workers.
make everyone feel guilty all the time,
Then people just tune it all out, and learn to accept the inherent violence of the system. Sadly.
I wouldn’t let consumers off the hook so easily.
Every time I comment in a thread with a topic like this suggesting people simply opt out of animal agriculture by changing what they buy at the store, I’m typically downvoted more than I’m upvoted.
Even the people who know we’re at higher risk of zoonotic diseases due to animal ag don’t care - they like the taste of meat, milk, and cheese and another pandemic just isn’t enough to get them to stop buying it.
Yet the prices remain relatively the same. You’re blaming the final purchasers for profit motivations of the producers
In other words its not because of the consumers, but because of the greedy skimming off the top.
Look, no one decides that they want to work in the mines because it’s good for society as a whole to have consumer goods made from what they mine. Everyone expects to be paid in some way.
If I’m making jeans as an independent designer–which I tried doing, briefly–and I decide that my time is worth $20/hr, then I’m going to have to charge around $500 for a single pair of jeans after you figure in all the time needed to make a single pair that’s been customized to fit a single, specific person. (Maybe more; I haven’t done the math in a decade or so.) Almost no one is going to want to, or be able to afford to pay that. Am I skimming off the top? No, I’m charging a fair–and actually very low–rate for custom work. But just like when I tried to do that a decade ago, no one can or will pay for that.
Even if we capped profits of investors, and capped salaries of executives, and had most of the profits going to the workers, people would tend to prefer less expensive goods over more expensive goods. That’s how competition in the market works. In a sufficiently competitive environment, without legal constraints, prices have to drop. (Monopolies raise prices by reducing competition; a sufficiently competitive environment assumes that there is no single company dominating the market.)
i agree with everything you’ve said including your links between causation etc
except the final link you make that its the consumer, i note you said ‘partly’ a consumer issue, so its not a full attribution - perhaps i’m misinterpreting what % you’re attributing.
tbh my take is alot of people would like an option between paying $2 for a garment they know involved exploitation/slavery vs an accessible1 independent option that doesn’t cost $500/garment.
i don’t think people are still choosing the $2 option because they’re ok with slavery. but (tragically?) they’re more ok with someone else being the slave vs them being the slave - which is what they’d basically be if every piece of clothing cost them $500.
and i think we know the reason there’s very little accessible options in between is because the game is rigged, you (HelixDab2) can’t realistically enter the game without serious capital behind you (ie. wealth/connections) to reach the volume prices which might give us an option in between - the market isn’t fair, its been stitched up long ago, by the same people who don’t produce anything and greedily skim off the top.
the venn diagram of independent designers fairly charging $500 for their labor and the greedy skimmers getting fat without producing anything themselves is two separate circles - they’re worlds apart
1 Quick note on accessibility, there are ofc some scant options between $2-500, but what isn’t clear (ie. readily accessible) to the consumer is which of those options isn’t just some greedy bastard buying a $2 option and selling it on for $15.
tbh my take is alot of people would like an option between paying $2 for a garment they know involved exploitation/slavery vs an accessible1 independent option that doesn’t cost $500/garment.
I would have wanted to believe that too, but then you see things like Temu that promise clothing and consumer goods at impossibly low prices, prices that simply aren’t possibly without forced labor somewhere, and people eat that shit up. I think that most people have an out of sight, out of mind approach to it, and as long as they can’t directly see the exploitation, they’ll accept it.
1 Quick note on accessibility, there are ofc some scant options between $2-500, but what isn’t clear (ie. readily accessible) to the consumer is which of those options isn’t just some greedy bastard buying a $2 option and selling it on for $15.
I strongly suspect that this obscurity is by intent.
And, taking this whole thing a bit farther, as a designer that was paying myself $20/hr, I still can’t guarantee anything about being free of forced labor, because I have no way of realistically tracking everything in my supply chain. This is why there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism, so the best you can do is pick your battles.
You mean to tell me that industries sacrifice long term consequences for short term profit?!
shockes Pikachu face
Consumers: only buy the cheapest regardless of how it’s produced, ensuring a race to the bottom
Producers: lower standards to increase production so they can sell meat for the lowest cost
Consumers when they find out what that entails: shocked pikachu face
I highly doubt that chain of causation to be true. Had people paid more, the producers would still lower their cost base as much as possible, in order to maximize profits.
Yup. The meat industry, like all food gets completely away from climate pollution tax. The government’s climate solution is forcing you to sell your gas car and buy a freakin’ Tesla.
Don‘t forget that this makes their asses wet AF
Corporations: Under pay employees for decades
Consumers: only buy the cheapest regardless of how it’s produced, ensuring a race to the bottom
Producers: lower standards to increase production so they can sell meat for the lowest cost
Consumers when they find out what that entails: shocked pikachu face
FTFY
As always, nobody could have seen this coming. Of course.
Is mad cow coming back?
Bird flu (specifically H5N1) has notably been spreading quite quickly in cows rights now. It’s been crossing between species much more than it has in the past
1 in 5 samples of pasteurized milk had bird flu virus fragments
It’s one of a few reasons why I only eat halal / kosher. Animal treatment from birth to slaughter is far more humane than that of how the heathens treat and slaughter animals.
Yeah yeah downvote me, heathens.
There’s nothing wrong with eating halal/kosher, but labelling the exploitation and slaughter of a living creature as ‘more humane’ is a delusion.
If you care about the humane treatment of animals, climate change, food supply safety, or even just want to decrease your monthly grocery bill you would commit to a plant based diet.
I’m not criticizing your diet, I am just asking that you own it and quit deluding yourself. ‘muh local farm is more humane’ propaganda is total bullshit. You support the exploitation and slaughter of these animals, quit trying to tell people you don’t.
So with halal, animals are not stuffed into big metal buildings where the temperature can reach 130-140 degrees fahrenheit (if not higher). They are not beaten. They are not tortured. They do not have any part of them removed for any reason (for example chicken beaks). These animals are treated humanely. They are fed what they are meant to be fed, most times left to graze on their own. Generally they are not slaughtered at an early stage but there’s no age restriction as well. Lastly animals are not to be slaughtered in front of other animals / witnessed by other animals.
I’ve seen how Intensive farms operate… it’s fkin disgusting and just awful. The only other option I have besides halal/kosher is going to an actual local farm buying a cow and having it slaughtered in a halal manner, then butchered and packed. The farm I’ve gone to is very humane in their animal husbandry. You can actually visit these farms and see for yourself the treatment of their animals, then decide if that’s where you’d like to purchase your animal from. It is true, there’s local farmers that do treat their animals humanely. I’ve seen it in NE Oregon, Northern California, and Michigan. And of course deer/elk hunting.
Damn. As an atheist vegan I’m treating animals even better than religious people.
Pat yourself on the back.
Meat industry: have to ramp up production because fucking idiotic people continue to breed uncontrollably and unsustanably
disease starts spreading and affecting the industry
Smug-ass cultist vegans: MuSt Be ThE mEaT eAtErS!!!1 Come on, my wife Moon Seashell, we need to get you pregnant again because our 14 malnourished kids isn’t enough!
I love how people love to rag on vegans talking about veganism unprovoked.
Those damn vegans always not even being part of the conversation yet! Let’s make fun of them trying to save the planet so they can show up and we can talk about how self-righteous they are.
True, increased demand for meat is one of the driving factors of ecological malpractise as it’s found in the meat industry.
Plant based diets and a lifestyle free of animal products provide a more sustainable and ecologically beneficial alternative. As does reducing the overall world population of course.
A lifetime free of animal products is not sustainable. Humans need at least some meat to survive. The average person eats too much which isn’t helping. Advocating a vegan (or even vegetarian) diet is ignoring science and how our bodies function. It causes long-term, serious harm to people who do not supplement their diet with at least some meat.
Pure veganism is a cult that ignores science, diet, and common sense. Nothing wrong with eating vegan meals (I love them) but completely cutting out meat is bad for you.
Humans need at least some meat to survive. […] It causes long-term, serious harm to people who do not supplement their diet with at least some meat. […] completely cutting out meat is bad for you.
That is not correct.
Advocating a vegan (or even vegetarian) diet is ignoring science and how our bodies function. […] Pure veganism is a cult that ignores science, diet, and common sense.
To the contrary. It is very much supported by science. Are you interested in the scientific literature? I’ll happily share.
It’s impossible to trust any sources these days because there are hidden agendas. The fact remains: we are omnivores and have shown to have used meat to evolve to current humans with high intelligence.
No amount of “scientific literature” can contradict actual, basic, fundamental science about who we are and what we are supposed to eat. Anyone who does has an agenda.
It’s impossible to trust any sources these days because there are hidden agendas. […] No amount of “scientific literature” can contradict actual, basic, fundamental science about who we are and what we are supposed to eat. Anyone who does has an agenda.
Sounds more like, “I don’t like it, so it must be an agenda”.
If you have issues trusting science we won’t come to an agreement here. Having a biased view and choosing what you want to believe, despite contradicting evidence, is building an illusion and not having an accurate picture of reality.
Note that research on that topic has not just popped up in the last couple of years. Also you may take a look at other cultures for hands-on counterexamples, e.g. some monks who live and have lived their whole lifes without consuming animal products.
The fact remains: we are omnivores
I wonder how you decide what a “fact” is, since you have issues trusting the work of scientists.
Anyway:
The fact also remains that digestion capabilites, i.e. being able to eat both plant and animal matter, don’t necessarily impose dietary recommendations.What you need to survive is a set of nutrients your body can digest. In which form they come, is less important.
So precisely how long are vegans able to survive without suffering ill effects? Because I mean we’ve all heard of people who have lived on that diet long term, so at what point do the wheels start to fall off so to speak? Is there some kind of extended latency period where you are okay before you get sick, or are vegan influencers just pretending to be healthy?
Also your how do you propose we change our agricultural practices so that our food supply isn’t tainted by sick meat grown in poor conditions? There’s a lot of evidence that there’s not enough land mass on earth to feed everyone a diet of free range grass fed beef. Or do you propose we run full steam ahead with factory farming and damn the consequences?
No vegan has lived on a pure vegan diet long enough to not have severe issues. If you search you will find tons of former vegans who were forced off of their pure vegan diets by severe medical issues. People who call themselves “vegans” and are still doing well after a long time are either really vegetarians who eat a lot of animal-derived products to compensate, or cheat and eat meat here and there.
Yes i understand what you are getting at there, but my question is precisely how long does one have before the wheels fall off while eating a strict vegan diet? Are we talking a matter of days, weeks, months, years, or decades?
The science doesn’t agree with that
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
Nevertheless, several RCTs [randomized controlled trials] have examined the effect of vegetarian diets on intermediate risk factors of cardiovascular diseases (Table 1). In a meta-analysis of RCTs, Wang et al. (22) found vegetarian diets to significantly lower blood concentrations of total, LDL, HDL, and non-HDL cholesterol relative to a range of omnivorous control diets. Other meta-analyses have found vegetarian diets to lower blood pressure, enhance weight loss, and improve glycemic control to greater extent than omnivorous comparison diets (23-25). Taken together, the beneficial effects of such diets on established proximal determinants of cardiovascular diseases found in RCTs, and their inverse associations with hard cardiovascular endpoints found in prospective cohort studies provide strong support for the adoption of healthful plant-based diets for cardiovascular disease prevention
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/am/pii/S1050173818300240
Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals
ignores science
Can you provide some links to that science?
Every single unbiased description of a human being ever. Don’t bother with your vegan-funded “health” organizations who just want to kill us.
It’s funny how every single vegan comes after me whenever I say the obvious fact that we need meat. Almost like they are a cult and want to hide the truth. The reason I come after vegans is because it’s dangerous and abusive and unhealthy, not because of some programmed agenda that has to be carefully hidden by a death cult.
I’m not vegan, I eat meat. I ask for evidence because you’re clearly biased and using emotionally charged and unscientific language when you dismiss the vegan diet. So I don’t believe you have a real understanding of the science or potential nutritional complications.
Don’t bother replying with “it’s just common sense” reworded for a third time. If you can’t provide evidence, that’s fine, but you don’t need to keep going on your dramatic crusade against something you don’t understand in the comments. I’m not asking for your opinion.
What evidence do you want? The tons of descriptions about human beings in our entire history isn’t enough for you? The fact that our teeth, our digestive system, and every single part of us is engineered to require meat? You can’t argue against science, because you’re just wrong if you do. All of these “studies” are doing is trying to rally against established science. This isn’t opinion. This isn’t some “dramatic crusade”. This is fact. You are the one that cannot and will not understand facts. And I don’t care if you claim to eat meat, you’re apparently arguing against it which goes against what you say you are doing which makes me believe that you’re lying just to make people think you’re “objective” and “open minded” when you’re anything but.
We are omnivores. This is a fact. We need at least some meat to live well. This is a fact. I have never claimed that vegetarian or vegan meals are bad for you. I have never claimed that we need to eat a ton of meat; on the contrary, I believe we do eat too much meat as a society and can cut back quite a bit. But cutting it out entirely? No. That’s wrong. That goes against everything we are as human beings.
I don’t know what else I can tell you. If you still are hung up on your vegan bullshit, I have nothing else to say because you’re just brainwashed and in a cult. It’s that simple.
I want literally any evidence. You are clearly incapable of providing any to support your even most basic claim. I’m not arguing against meat, I’m arguing against ignorance and dishonesty. I had rotisserie chicken from Walmart for lunch. If you had provided any source for your claim, I would have read it fully and with an open mind. I’m not biased towards veganism, I wanted to know if the claims you are making have any basis in reality so I can make an informed decision. This is your third comment saying the same thing without evidence, and arguing like a child. I don’t mean that to be derogatory either, if you’re still in school or a child, that’s fine. But I’m not interested in a discussion at that level.
You have shown repeatedly that you can’t have an honest discussion and are close minded and conspiratorial. I’m not going to bother replying anymore, it’s just getting obnoxious.
Sources or STFU.
Fucking dumbass didn’t even do 2 seconds of googling lmfao
Ah yes humans evolved to eat everything. Now let me just cut a part of that diet out of my life.
We evolved to NEED to eat everything, plants AND animals. Basic science, vegan cultist. You’re a death cult and just as bad as religion, spreading unhealthy bullshit to people who don’t know any better.
You know what’s funny?
People say that like forever. And those “vegan cultists” we told that 3 decades ago (and we were waiting for them to die of malnutrition) are still healthy and happy while the average supermarket-joe got fat and unhappy or is long dead by now.
I’m no vegan btw. but why would i argue with science? Just because we evolved to be able to eat nearly everything doesn’t mean we should. We could probably survive a good while on just eating hoofs or tree bark. Doesn’t mean we should include it in our diet.
Science says meat contains proteins and nutrients that are incredibly difficult to get and get enough of in plants to live well.
In case you were unaware, it was the fact that we became meat-eating omnivores that is the REASON we evolved to become the intelligent creatures we are. Do vegans want to de-evolve into basic, stupid creatures? Seems that way.
I swear, people like you do nothing but spread misinformation and I’m fucking sick of it. Veganism is a laughable, horrible, unsafe, dangerous cult and you actually defend it.
Science doesn’t say we need meat. Also very specially not the crappy processed toxic waste the majority consumes as “meat”.
But ever tried a diet only existing of plants/fruits OR meat? Guess on which you’d live longer? Exactly.
And again, no vegan here. Just also sick of this super old “but science says we need meat”.
What made you think I am vegan?
What the fuck is this self-important bullshit.
Dude, if you want to kill her, fine, whatever, but we’re putting your ass in prison.
