I used to be alarmed that people were being taken in by this stuff, but I now think the overwhelming majority of people saying it are just shill accounts. For a couple of different reasons, I think the percentage that are actual human accounts that sincerely believe it is extremely small.
I notice they’ve pivoted to just general nihilism about the US economy and the state of things as of a few weeks ago – I think they might have concluded, as I did, that expressing this type of viewpoint and doing such a bad job of it and getting unanimously yelled at in the comments was actually having the opposite effect, highlighting to people how important it is to vote and how it absolutely makes a difference.
I see a lot of people saying “go vote” and not making any effort to understand why non-voters stay home. A lot of the comments here are great examples of that.
That kind of dogmatism is common on political issues, of course, but that doesn’t make it reasonable.
And I understand that people feel strongly. Who wouldn’t? That’s why it’s even more important to try to discuss things. Or not. Sometimes flame wars are entertaining, if not productive. Depends on one’s mood.
This is something that I’ve noticed is worse on Lemmy than it was on Reddit, and it was already pretty bad on Reddit. Insulting people doesn’t get them to support your viewpoint. To convince disillusioned voters to hold their nose and vote blue no matter who, they have to be convinced why their individual vote has an impact in a system where the electoral college can (and regularly does) vote contrary to the popular vote. They have to be shown that it’s worth participating in a system that makes progress slow and difficult but allows evil to be done quickly and with great impact.
This is an incredibly toxic mindset. Without real proof of what you claim, you’re just deciding that people’s opinions don’t count if they’re far enough away from your own. People are becoming nihilistic because that’s basically the best case scenario right now. It’s obvious that voting for Democrats won’t work to fix the big problems we have, and if you try to go around the Dems with a reasonable outsider like Sanders, they will literally just fall on their sword and ensure the nut job gets elected instead, while simultaneously blaming you for not falling in line hard enough for their horrible candidate.
Are the commenters you’re referring to shills, or do they do a shitty job arguing their case? Both can’t be broadly true.
Are the commenters quitting because they get yelled at, or are they shills who will keep writing that stuff until they stop getting paid? Again, both cannot be broadly true.
Without real proof of what you claim, you’re just deciding that people’s opinions don’t count if they’re far enough away from your own.
I get how you could have gotten that from what I said, but that’s not what I’m doing. I’m basing my statement not on anything about the opinions people are giving, but on:
Inconsistencies between people’s stated motivation and their behavior. One example of this is claiming that you’re panicked about the idea that Trump might win, and concern-trolling that you’re raising these issues with Biden so that they can be dealt with, but also saying objectively untrue things to criticize Biden’s record and then being uninterested in a factual discussion about them. Another example is people in this thread, who are so concerned about the plight of the working class in this country (which makes perfect sense) that they think refusing to vote is a good option (which doesn’t), but then are totally uninterested in Bernie Sanders’s organization which is advocating with some amount of success for workers’ rights from well to the left of Biden.
Weird discrepancies in voting patterns and ratios. Content like this post will have a massive pattern of voting in one direction indicating the community’s consensus, and yet the comments will be roughly 50/50 in terms of “for or against” with a really vocal handful of accounts doing all the talking on the “don’t vote” or “Biden is bad for unions” or whatever side. And, the arguments on that one side aren’t just ones I disagree with – they’re visibly bizarre, or sometimes just based on pure content-free hostility. Again just look at this thread.
There are certain unusual patterns that crop up in the shill accounts if you pay close attention to what they’re saying. One example is that they use conservative framing sometimes – e.g. they use “Democrat” as an adjective (“Democrat party”) periodically, which is a phrase I’ve never heard someone outside the American right wing say, or they frame disagreement with them as an attempt to censor or silence them, things like that.
Does all that mean they’re definitely shills? No. I talked at length with someone who had this type of viewpoint recently that I actually don’t think was a shill, specifically because he was willing to argue at length and had at least coherent and self-consistent thoughts about things, and that’s fine. I don’t think I ever used his viewpoint as a means to accuse him of being fake or not to engage with him or anything. But yeah, in light of the above events I do think it’s fair to characterize people who are doing that as being probably fake accounts (although yes the truth is I have no idea and it’s maybe a bad type of accusation to be throwing around), just because it seems like a pertinent thing to talk about.
Im a socialist and regularly say things similar to Democrat party. I use the term “lib” derogatorily, for one. Democrats have nothing to do with me and I oppose them, so why would I use their preferred language that implies they value democracy? In my experience, libs constantly use claims of shills as an excuse to ignore me, despite the fact that I’m very clearly not a shill. Whether or not I’m right or not, every time I voice opinions disagreeing with the majority liberal view, I get called a shill. Even times where I was wrong and they should have been able to have a better argument.
Where in your socialist reading did you pick up that unusual turn of phrase, I wonder
In my experience, libs constantly use claims of shills as an excuse to ignore me
I just looked over a few of your comments and all I can say is, fuckin’ wow. I think if you’re going to say Russia should have Crimea and Donbas and you’d vote for Trump over Biden, you should get used to people assuming you’re a Russian asset, whether it’s true or not.
Thank you for your perspective. It’s nice to know that you think I couldn’t possibly be a real human being just because I’m a financially impoverished minority in these United States and sick of being told that I need to vote for someone else’s option time and again because it’s the best possible option. Every time the leftist majority makes a decision I want, they don’t look for concessions to bring me in. They just beat me over the head with fearmongering.
If you want voters, appeal to them. I’m not responsible for the message put out by the party not convincing me.
Different user, but it’s obvious to anyone who’s been paying attention that he will just give more tax breaks to the rich and corporations. The wealth divide will grow even further.
And Trump will further destroy protections that Americans rely on.
Most pollution sources in the U.S. are placed in close proximity to residential areas in which POC & impoverished people reside. Trump crippled the EPA and as a result air quality for said people dropped like a rock that was already at the bottom of the ocean.
This isn’t fear mongering, this is the shit we witnessed the first time around. The second time will be just as bad at a minimum.
Even if Trump doesn’t get elected, eventually another republican will. And with goals of theirs looking like that, I don’t know if this country will be safe in the foreseeable future.
Hopefully by Zoomers (currently aged 12 – 27) pushing back hard on it when they actually vote in large numbers. Because, you know, young people don’t vote.
Thus all the social media PsyOps. Like it or not, TikTok is critical to the future of our country.
Zoomers aren’t even 30 yet and the oldest of Alphas (incl. my daughter) are just preteens. That said, you’re right, they are in grave danger of having the wool pulled over their eyes by viral disinformation campaigns; however, they have massive potential to use all that for benevolent purposes. We also have some time and opportunity yet to teach them the importance of civic duty and the critical thinking they will need to combat the gauntlet of scams they’ll be running through in the years to come.
You could join an organization of people trying to fix the system for you and people like you. You’d probably find quite a lot of common cause with the people there, if the Democratic establishment is too worker-hostile for you even in its Bidenized form (which I could understand).
Is the economy okay when everyone knows their costs are close to double what they were five years ago? Like that you lost a vote (however small the margin) literally shows your view is unpopular. But please keep hoping you know and want better for people without doing the work and ignoring the will of people.
“I’m in this Class Project. The whole class is in on it and every time we do a class project half the class tells me that I have to agree with them or else the other half decides how to do the project. I try telling them I will agree with them if they’re open to concessions to me. They just yell harder and threaten that it will be all my fault if I don’t agree with them.”
Your waiting for concessions reminds me of Martin Niemoller’s “First they came for”. You’re waiting for specific focus on your needs, but in the meantime by abstaining from the process you are enabling others suffering.
You sound politically self-centered. It’s fair to feel that way. But perhaps you should participate so that you can sway the process towards a side that is attempting the opposite of harm.
You could work to better the world you live in with the tools at your disposal (voting, for the lesser of two evils). If you don’t, then you only have yourself to blame when no one helps you.
Did it my entire political existence. I’m the one that wasn’t helped. This is your party having no one to blame but themselves for how this is turning out at this point.
Yep
I used to be alarmed that people were being taken in by this stuff, but I now think the overwhelming majority of people saying it are just shill accounts. For a couple of different reasons, I think the percentage that are actual human accounts that sincerely believe it is extremely small.
I notice they’ve pivoted to just general nihilism about the US economy and the state of things as of a few weeks ago – I think they might have concluded, as I did, that expressing this type of viewpoint and doing such a bad job of it and getting unanimously yelled at in the comments was actually having the opposite effect, highlighting to people how important it is to vote and how it absolutely makes a difference.
I see a lot of people saying “go vote” and not making any effort to understand why non-voters stay home. A lot of the comments here are great examples of that.
That kind of dogmatism is common on political issues, of course, but that doesn’t make it reasonable.
And I understand that people feel strongly. Who wouldn’t? That’s why it’s even more important to try to discuss things. Or not. Sometimes flame wars are entertaining, if not productive. Depends on one’s mood.
This is something that I’ve noticed is worse on Lemmy than it was on Reddit, and it was already pretty bad on Reddit. Insulting people doesn’t get them to support your viewpoint. To convince disillusioned voters to hold their nose and vote blue no matter who, they have to be convinced why their individual vote has an impact in a system where the electoral college can (and regularly does) vote contrary to the popular vote. They have to be shown that it’s worth participating in a system that makes progress slow and difficult but allows evil to be done quickly and with great impact.
They have to be given hope, not fear.
This is an incredibly toxic mindset. Without real proof of what you claim, you’re just deciding that people’s opinions don’t count if they’re far enough away from your own. People are becoming nihilistic because that’s basically the best case scenario right now. It’s obvious that voting for Democrats won’t work to fix the big problems we have, and if you try to go around the Dems with a reasonable outsider like Sanders, they will literally just fall on their sword and ensure the nut job gets elected instead, while simultaneously blaming you for not falling in line hard enough for their horrible candidate.
Are the commenters you’re referring to shills, or do they do a shitty job arguing their case? Both can’t be broadly true.
Are the commenters quitting because they get yelled at, or are they shills who will keep writing that stuff until they stop getting paid? Again, both cannot be broadly true.
I get how you could have gotten that from what I said, but that’s not what I’m doing. I’m basing my statement not on anything about the opinions people are giving, but on:
Does all that mean they’re definitely shills? No. I talked at length with someone who had this type of viewpoint recently that I actually don’t think was a shill, specifically because he was willing to argue at length and had at least coherent and self-consistent thoughts about things, and that’s fine. I don’t think I ever used his viewpoint as a means to accuse him of being fake or not to engage with him or anything. But yeah, in light of the above events I do think it’s fair to characterize people who are doing that as being probably fake accounts (although yes the truth is I have no idea and it’s maybe a bad type of accusation to be throwing around), just because it seems like a pertinent thing to talk about.
Im a socialist and regularly say things similar to Democrat party. I use the term “lib” derogatorily, for one. Democrats have nothing to do with me and I oppose them, so why would I use their preferred language that implies they value democracy? In my experience, libs constantly use claims of shills as an excuse to ignore me, despite the fact that I’m very clearly not a shill. Whether or not I’m right or not, every time I voice opinions disagreeing with the majority liberal view, I get called a shill. Even times where I was wrong and they should have been able to have a better argument.
Where in your socialist reading did you pick up that unusual turn of phrase, I wonder
I just looked over a few of your comments and all I can say is, fuckin’ wow. I think if you’re going to say Russia should have Crimea and Donbas and you’d vote for Trump over Biden, you should get used to people assuming you’re a Russian asset, whether it’s true or not.
Thank you for your perspective. It’s nice to know that you think I couldn’t possibly be a real human being just because I’m a financially impoverished minority in these United States and sick of being told that I need to vote for someone else’s option time and again because it’s the best possible option. Every time the leftist majority makes a decision I want, they don’t look for concessions to bring me in. They just beat me over the head with fearmongering.
If you want voters, appeal to them. I’m not responsible for the message put out by the party not convincing me.
What do you suppose trump will do to help you?
Different user, but it’s obvious to anyone who’s been paying attention that he will just give more tax breaks to the rich and corporations. The wealth divide will grow even further.
And Trump will further destroy protections that Americans rely on.
Most pollution sources in the U.S. are placed in close proximity to residential areas in which POC & impoverished people reside. Trump crippled the EPA and as a result air quality for said people dropped like a rock that was already at the bottom of the ocean.
This isn’t fear mongering, this is the shit we witnessed the first time around. The second time will be just as bad at a minimum.
He’ll also set forth many of the components of Project2025 which, if you haven’t read, is scary to say the least.
I have, and it is terrifying.
Even if Trump doesn’t get elected, eventually another republican will. And with goals of theirs looking like that, I don’t know if this country will be safe in the foreseeable future.
Hopefully by Zoomers (currently aged 12 – 27) pushing back hard on it when they actually vote in large numbers. Because, you know, young people don’t vote.
Thus all the social media PsyOps. Like it or not, TikTok is critical to the future of our country.
For better or worse I’m hoping things like Taylor Swift getting involved helps the situation.
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Zoomers aren’t even 30 yet and the oldest of Alphas (incl. my daughter) are just preteens. That said, you’re right, they are in grave danger of having the wool pulled over their eyes by viral disinformation campaigns; however, they have massive potential to use all that for benevolent purposes. We also have some time and opportunity yet to teach them the importance of civic duty and the critical thinking they will need to combat the gauntlet of scams they’ll be running through in the years to come.
Right. I was off by a generation. Edited to fix, thanks for that.
I’m not sure you replied to the right person.
I did. you’re claiming voting is pointless, but all abstaining can lead to is trump
I never said Trump would help me. So your question is irrelevant.
Your actions will help elect him. 2+2=4 whether you’re acknowledging it or not
Sounds like you’re exactly what I’ve been going on about this whole time. If you have nothing productive to say we’re done here.
Not voting is bad. Take a civics class or something
You could join an organization of people trying to fix the system for you and people like you. You’d probably find quite a lot of common cause with the people there, if the Democratic establishment is too worker-hostile for you even in its Bidenized form (which I could understand).
Thank you for the resource. I’ll look into it!
Yah dude. The disillusionment with the current US governmental and economic system, I get that. It makes sense to me.
Is the economy okay when everyone knows their costs are close to double what they were five years ago? Like that you lost a vote (however small the margin) literally shows your view is unpopular. But please keep hoping you know and want better for people without doing the work and ignoring the will of people.
Did you miss the primaries? There’s more than just the president, you know.
What an unhelpful comment.
“I’m in this Class Project. The whole class is in on it and every time we do a class project half the class tells me that I have to agree with them or else the other half decides how to do the project. I try telling them I will agree with them if they’re open to concessions to me. They just yell harder and threaten that it will be all my fault if I don’t agree with them.”
“Have you tried participating in Group Projects?”
Your waiting for concessions reminds me of Martin Niemoller’s “First they came for”. You’re waiting for specific focus on your needs, but in the meantime by abstaining from the process you are enabling others suffering.
You sound politically self-centered. It’s fair to feel that way. But perhaps you should participate so that you can sway the process towards a side that is attempting the opposite of harm.
You could work to better the world you live in with the tools at your disposal (voting, for the lesser of two evils). If you don’t, then you only have yourself to blame when no one helps you.
Did it my entire political existence. I’m the one that wasn’t helped. This is your party having no one to blame but themselves for how this is turning out at this point.
So your life would be better if every time you voted the other politician won? That seems crazy.
Where, when, and how have I ever argued for this? Can you even state my position in a single sentence?