There’s a thousand little unique skills, and they’re all important. Some of them include communicating with your team and managing team morale.
Additionally you get matched up with 4 people who roughly have the same sum of skills, which almost certainly means a completely different makeup of skills
So you notice your teammates screwing up all the things you’re better at, and you naturally overlook your teammates skills that don’t look like your own.
This basically manifests as road rage where the driver doesn’t realize he is the traffic. It creates a situation where nearly all your teammates look like idiots compared to what you look for. Because you’re not looking at ALL the things.
This reminds me of Overwatch so much. I usually played healer and it was all too common to watch the tanks and DPS being great at doing their own jobs, but terrible at doing them together. Then it’s just a feed machine until the game is over.
It also doesn’t help that riot forces communication to be like as if driving a car, you can only ping and god forbid you ping the wrong player.
You used to be able to type in the game but now typing is seen as troll and riot supports this, chat restricting and eventually players that type a number of msgs regardless of content
Mobas (and team games in general) have an inherent issue where people dont like to be losing, and when they are, they usually find an outlet by blaming the rest of the team.
Its a pretty huge problem in league because
Behavior problem. Riot has like never addressed the toxicity issue. They’ve basically said heres some banned words and thats it. People can get by either griefing in game (which has been essentially unpunished) or by typing in non bannable ways (i remember seeing someone using europe as a uhh… You know)
Game design problem. League is pretty punishing when it comes to losing. You’re stuck in a game you dont want to play, esp if your team holds you hostage by not surrendering intentionally. There’s no fast way to get into a new game. You have to finish this, lose lp (ranked point system in league), and then possibly run into the same situation again. This isn’t really riot’s fault. This is just a flaw of mobas that no ones learned to really fix yet
This is just a flaw of mobas that no ones learned to really fix yet
A flaw of humanity really. But unlike Riot, Valve has and still are taking action against toxicity in DotA 2, for example with their behaviour score system.
Reports for toxic chat, toxic voice, and/or greifing will lower behaviour score.
Matchmaking considers this score, putting toxic people in matches together.
If a player’s behaviour score is too low they will automatically be muted.
Typing slurs in chat lowers behaviour score, and too many will mute the player for the rest of the match.
On the match found pop-up, it tells you if the behaviour score is differing between the players. You can then either press confirm or queue again to find a better match.
At the end of a match you can dislike players, which will lessen then chance of meeting that player again. You can also press avoid on a player, making it impossible to be matched on team with that player again.
There’s more to it, but that’s the gist of it. Still a toxic game but at least 10 times less than LoL.
That’s not enough, still. It should directly affect the rank too. Get low on behavior score, not only everything they already do, you will also start going down. Because rank is everything to those toxic people, it is the only thing that drives their toxicity.
The problem with mobas, and most modern multiplayer games, is the visible rank system. Back in the day, with only community hosted servers, people were playing for fun. Then multiplayer shifted to publisher hosted servers where you started playing with one click on the menu. To keep the matches interesting, you needed a system to matchmake fair lobbies, so here comes the ranking. But they made a mistake by making the rank public, because now the players are no longer playing for fun, they are playing to raise their rank - and losing even lowers their rank.
That’s not enough, still. It should directly affect the rank too.
I disagree. I think they made the right call to make behaviour score and rank seperate.
Because rank is everything to those toxic people, it is the only thing that drives their toxicity.
Not true, I play a lot of unranked and there are many toxic players there as well.
But they made a mistake by making the rank public, because now the players are no longer playing for fun, they are playing to raise their rank
Same as before, people play to win regardless of there being a visible rank or not. The game is competetive either way, and competetive games attracts toxic people.
Oh, ranking system in video games is a whole other beast to tackle. It’s a both pro and con game design. Games want to promote people perfecting the game and bringing competitiveness in the sphere. That’s not inherently a bad thing. Even in non ranked games, if theres a way to compete people will naturally aim to be the best. There’s just a lot of issues that come with it as well.
Visual rank is hard. For one, it’s a medal to reward the player. Just like physical sports, winning a medal feels good. It’s an accomplishment that really boosts the feeling of competitiveness in a sport. On the other hand, visual rank in games can be used as a way to put people down. “Oh you’re only _ rank” and all that. Not really easily solvable, considering how many games that have a ranked system. It’s one of the fundamentals of the system that couples everything together.
Yea valve has been pushing for punishing bad behavior, which is good on them (I remember the coal incident). It’s still a complicated task, but at least they’re trying things that seem to stick rather than riot (like them trying to change certain pings to be party only which was really stupid)
I guess my phrasing is a bit off, sorry. They’ve tried to address it. It just hasn’t worked that well (for example, they decided to add a bait ping that looked like a fishing hook, but players decided it was used moreso as a noose). The community is still as toxic as ever. Nothing’s really going to change other than some more banned words and maybe some changes to how pinging works (which is another toxicity problem)
Imagine queuing for a game, and then wanting to play it out, only to be told you’re holding them hostage, for doing what you all intended to do when clicking play.
It’s not really punishing if you’re losing, just the majority of folks don’t want to work for a win.
If misfits can take SKT T1 to game 5 with AD leona, some dorito boy can lock in for a match.
Thats not really the scenario I was referring to. There’s the scenario where people decide to just give up, grief, and make people waste as much time as possible.
I will say that in your scenario, you should also look at it in your teammates perspective. Your own intentions might be purely that you want to play it out to its fullest. Maybe you see a win condition. The issue is that your teammates don’t share that view. It could be that you are the only one doing good in that game. Your teammates are not having fun. They dont see the same wincon you see. And at the end of the day, if that one match isn’t fun for them, could you really blame them for wanting to surrender? There’s not really a clear right and wrong in that situation.
Not really, it’s people who play the game to win rather than for the root purpose of games. Have fun. Win condition is the issue.
People playing meta and not really taking the game’s elements to make it their own. You’ll win or you’ll lose, your team will be, regardless.
I don’t blame them for surrendering, I just don’t understand why click ready, play, lock in if you’re not ready to play and lock in. I don’t care what you do, how you do, or who you are. Whether you play meta or not, whether you give it 100 or none. I will give it my all.
The fun is those rare moments when through all the frustration you 5 click together for that game deciding fight. Do you win or do you lose?
5v5 for 30+ mins and one person can easily ruin the experience for their team, on purpose or otherwise. It’s a snowballing game where kills and such make you stronger and stronger.
It can be extremely frustrating.
especially in league,
small mistakes create a downwards spiral.
when you die your enemy can lane freely while you miss out.
making him stronger and you weaker.
that loss also has more impact.
in mobas the diffrence between a kited out and a ill equiped player is far more drastic than in other games like csgo.
the separated laning also makes it easier to pick out a scapegoat.
the lane that lost is easily blamed,
even if the rest of the team did nothing to help them.
If a game is going poorly, they find something to blame. And games will often be considered lost very early (even if they might not be) but you still have to play the game until you lose, which can be frustrating for many
Nah in league you can give up, that game babies it’s players compared to some others mobas. But in most yeah you gotta see it through. At least if you have to play out your losing match it forces you to try to get better, and comebacks happen all the time.
Those comeback games are the most fun ones, which makes it even more annoying when teammates give up and whine about it because that’s happening instead of a potential epic comeback.
Plus playing a losing game gives good practice for individual skills, even if your team sucks.
As others have said, it’s a very snowbally game. The various characters all grow naturally stronger over the course of the game through gold (to buy items) and experience that you earn by killing minions. The problem is that killing an enemy player and destroying enemy towers grants a lot of gold and experience, so if you fuck up and die (or if you get ganged up on by the enemy team) you can end up making your opponent much stronger. Even if you live and are forced to return to base to heal, the opportunity for free farm or destroying your tower (which also makes it riskier for you to push forward) can make your opponent a lot stronger than you, which lets him kill you easier, which makes him stronger. This can also spill over to other lanes, where the opponent you made stronger starts killing your teammates and taking their towers.
There’s ways to overcome this snowball–players on killstreaks are worth more gold when they die, you can gang up on a fed opponent and catch them out to nullify their stat advantage, and you can try and help other lanes to get your team stronger. The champions also have different scaling levels, and some champions get a lot of front-loaded baseline damage while others scale better with items, and a select few champions have theoretically infinite scaling (but are generally much weaker in other areas to compensate). Worst case, this means your team can play super defensive and try to wait out the advantage until they catch up and then win from there. The problem is that all this requires A) communication and the ability to quickly adapt from your teammates, B) the opposing team screws up and doesn’t press their advantage, and C) your team is willing to try (which may require dragging the game out for over an hour). Needless to say, this is not always the case, and this design makes it very easy to blame another player for the loss (warranted or not).
Not a history expert. But I believe dota (defense of the ancients) was (one of?) the first games to create this genre of tower defense in 5v5 with the focus on heroes and skills instead of RTS marco. When others came along, they were initially referred to as “dota-like”, which obviously was not acceptable marketing for RIOT. Hence they coined the term MOBA, which come to think of it doesnt really mean anything? (Multi player online battle arena?)
It’s an unintended consequence of the original game’s design (DOTA), but yeah, by giving you 4 teammates who can all have a big impact on the outcome of the game, it makes it very easy for your brain to blame anyone but yourself when something goes wrong
So as someone who has never played LoL or any MoBA (or is it a DOTA?), can someone give me a run-down? Just generally toxic behavior?
There’s a thousand little unique skills, and they’re all important. Some of them include communicating with your team and managing team morale.
Additionally you get matched up with 4 people who roughly have the same sum of skills, which almost certainly means a completely different makeup of skills
So you notice your teammates screwing up all the things you’re better at, and you naturally overlook your teammates skills that don’t look like your own.
This basically manifests as road rage where the driver doesn’t realize he is the traffic. It creates a situation where nearly all your teammates look like idiots compared to what you look for. Because you’re not looking at ALL the things.
Beautiful description. Well said.
This reminds me of Overwatch so much. I usually played healer and it was all too common to watch the tanks and DPS being great at doing their own jobs, but terrible at doing them together. Then it’s just a feed machine until the game is over.
It also doesn’t help that riot forces communication to be like as if driving a car, you can only ping and god forbid you ping the wrong player.
You used to be able to type in the game but now typing is seen as troll and riot supports this, chat restricting and eventually players that type a number of msgs regardless of content
first game i played i lost. i was fucking pissed.
second game i played i easily won. i was fucking pissed.
thats the small of it
weak mental
If you’re always pissed you can’t tilt, 5head
Mobas (and team games in general) have an inherent issue where people dont like to be losing, and when they are, they usually find an outlet by blaming the rest of the team.
Its a pretty huge problem in league because
A flaw of humanity really. But unlike Riot, Valve has and still are taking action against toxicity in DotA 2, for example with their behaviour score system.
Reports for toxic chat, toxic voice, and/or greifing will lower behaviour score.
Matchmaking considers this score, putting toxic people in matches together.
If a player’s behaviour score is too low they will automatically be muted.
Typing slurs in chat lowers behaviour score, and too many will mute the player for the rest of the match.
On the match found pop-up, it tells you if the behaviour score is differing between the players. You can then either press confirm or queue again to find a better match.
At the end of a match you can dislike players, which will lessen then chance of meeting that player again. You can also press avoid on a player, making it impossible to be matched on team with that player again.
There’s more to it, but that’s the gist of it. Still a toxic game but at least 10 times less than LoL.
That’s not enough, still. It should directly affect the rank too. Get low on behavior score, not only everything they already do, you will also start going down. Because rank is everything to those toxic people, it is the only thing that drives their toxicity.
The problem with mobas, and most modern multiplayer games, is the visible rank system. Back in the day, with only community hosted servers, people were playing for fun. Then multiplayer shifted to publisher hosted servers where you started playing with one click on the menu. To keep the matches interesting, you needed a system to matchmake fair lobbies, so here comes the ranking. But they made a mistake by making the rank public, because now the players are no longer playing for fun, they are playing to raise their rank - and losing even lowers their rank.
I disagree. I think they made the right call to make behaviour score and rank seperate.
Not true, I play a lot of unranked and there are many toxic players there as well.
Same as before, people play to win regardless of there being a visible rank or not. The game is competetive either way, and competetive games attracts toxic people.
Oh, ranking system in video games is a whole other beast to tackle. It’s a both pro and con game design. Games want to promote people perfecting the game and bringing competitiveness in the sphere. That’s not inherently a bad thing. Even in non ranked games, if theres a way to compete people will naturally aim to be the best. There’s just a lot of issues that come with it as well.
Visual rank is hard. For one, it’s a medal to reward the player. Just like physical sports, winning a medal feels good. It’s an accomplishment that really boosts the feeling of competitiveness in a sport. On the other hand, visual rank in games can be used as a way to put people down. “Oh you’re only _ rank” and all that. Not really easily solvable, considering how many games that have a ranked system. It’s one of the fundamentals of the system that couples everything together.
Yea valve has been pushing for punishing bad behavior, which is good on them (I remember the coal incident). It’s still a complicated task, but at least they’re trying things that seem to stick rather than riot (like them trying to change certain pings to be party only which was really stupid)
i genuinely dont get the europe thing. what does it mean?
“I hope europe yourself” is the exact phrase I heard
Guess I shouldve given context, it is a bit harder to see out of context haha
I’m going to guess rape
Uranus
It’s way to say rope yourself, or hang yourself, and get past the chat filters. It’s the closest league players get to a creative writing exercise.
Is this a joke? They had a person whose entire job was toxicity control.
I guess my phrasing is a bit off, sorry. They’ve tried to address it. It just hasn’t worked that well (for example, they decided to add a bait ping that looked like a fishing hook, but players decided it was used moreso as a noose). The community is still as toxic as ever. Nothing’s really going to change other than some more banned words and maybe some changes to how pinging works (which is another toxicity problem)
Imagine queuing for a game, and then wanting to play it out, only to be told you’re holding them hostage, for doing what you all intended to do when clicking play.
It’s not really punishing if you’re losing, just the majority of folks don’t want to work for a win.
If misfits can take SKT T1 to game 5 with AD leona, some dorito boy can lock in for a match.
Thats not really the scenario I was referring to. There’s the scenario where people decide to just give up, grief, and make people waste as much time as possible.
I will say that in your scenario, you should also look at it in your teammates perspective. Your own intentions might be purely that you want to play it out to its fullest. Maybe you see a win condition. The issue is that your teammates don’t share that view. It could be that you are the only one doing good in that game. Your teammates are not having fun. They dont see the same wincon you see. And at the end of the day, if that one match isn’t fun for them, could you really blame them for wanting to surrender? There’s not really a clear right and wrong in that situation.
Not really, it’s people who play the game to win rather than for the root purpose of games. Have fun. Win condition is the issue.
People playing meta and not really taking the game’s elements to make it their own. You’ll win or you’ll lose, your team will be, regardless.
I don’t blame them for surrendering, I just don’t understand why click ready, play, lock in if you’re not ready to play and lock in. I don’t care what you do, how you do, or who you are. Whether you play meta or not, whether you give it 100 or none. I will give it my all.
The fun is those rare moments when through all the frustration you 5 click together for that game deciding fight. Do you win or do you lose?
5v5 for 30+ mins and one person can easily ruin the experience for their team, on purpose or otherwise. It’s a snowballing game where kills and such make you stronger and stronger.
It can be extremely frustrating.
especially in league,
small mistakes create a downwards spiral.
when you die your enemy can lane freely while you miss out.
making him stronger and you weaker.
that loss also has more impact.
in mobas the diffrence between a kited out and a ill equiped player is far more drastic than in other games like csgo.
the separated laning also makes it easier to pick out a scapegoat.
the lane that lost is easily blamed,
even if the rest of the team did nothing to help them.
Sounds like a game designed to ruin relationships.
It does, I don’t play with my siblings regularly anymore because of it. We used to play online together everyday.
If a game is going poorly, they find something to blame. And games will often be considered lost very early (even if they might not be) but you still have to play the game until you lose, which can be frustrating for many
Nah in league you can give up, that game babies it’s players compared to some others mobas. But in most yeah you gotta see it through. At least if you have to play out your losing match it forces you to try to get better, and comebacks happen all the time.
Fuck mobas though
Those comeback games are the most fun ones, which makes it even more annoying when teammates give up and whine about it because that’s happening instead of a potential epic comeback.
Plus playing a losing game gives good practice for individual skills, even if your team sucks.
As others have said, it’s a very snowbally game. The various characters all grow naturally stronger over the course of the game through gold (to buy items) and experience that you earn by killing minions. The problem is that killing an enemy player and destroying enemy towers grants a lot of gold and experience, so if you fuck up and die (or if you get ganged up on by the enemy team) you can end up making your opponent much stronger. Even if you live and are forced to return to base to heal, the opportunity for free farm or destroying your tower (which also makes it riskier for you to push forward) can make your opponent a lot stronger than you, which lets him kill you easier, which makes him stronger. This can also spill over to other lanes, where the opponent you made stronger starts killing your teammates and taking their towers.
There’s ways to overcome this snowball–players on killstreaks are worth more gold when they die, you can gang up on a fed opponent and catch them out to nullify their stat advantage, and you can try and help other lanes to get your team stronger. The champions also have different scaling levels, and some champions get a lot of front-loaded baseline damage while others scale better with items, and a select few champions have theoretically infinite scaling (but are generally much weaker in other areas to compensate). Worst case, this means your team can play super defensive and try to wait out the advantage until they catch up and then win from there. The problem is that all this requires A) communication and the ability to quickly adapt from your teammates, B) the opposing team screws up and doesn’t press their advantage, and C) your team is willing to try (which may require dragging the game out for over an hour). Needless to say, this is not always the case, and this design makes it very easy to blame another player for the loss (warranted or not).
People run around for 30 minutes. Someone gets caught out of position. The game ends. People screech at each other.
Dota is a different game (series) in the MOBA genre.
Not a history expert. But I believe dota (defense of the ancients) was (one of?) the first games to create this genre of tower defense in 5v5 with the focus on heroes and skills instead of RTS marco. When others came along, they were initially referred to as “dota-like”, which obviously was not acceptable marketing for RIOT. Hence they coined the term MOBA, which come to think of it doesnt really mean anything? (Multi player online battle arena?)
It’s an unintended consequence of the original game’s design (DOTA), but yeah, by giving you 4 teammates who can all have a big impact on the outcome of the game, it makes it very easy for your brain to blame anyone but yourself when something goes wrong