Kev Quirk (@kev@fosstodon.org)
fosstodon.org
Attached: 1 image Yeah, that's gonna be a hard pass from me thanks, Rachel. Zero interest in having a conversation with #Meta "off the record" or otherwise. Sharing this purely to be as transparent as possible with our members.

The exchange is about Meta’s upcoming ActivityPub-enabled network Threads. Meta is calling for a meeting, his response is priceless!

  • Kaldo@kbin.social
    45·
    2 years ago

    Of course just blocking them is an option for the fediverse, but doing that blindly seems like a missed opportunity for both sides.
    More freely available content would be great, wouldn’t it?

    The issue is once you open these floodgates you’re not going to be able to close them, at least not without alienating a vast majority of users on both sides. Furthermore, once meta gains the majority of users and content on its instances (and this is really more of a “when”, not “if” situation), they can start making changes to AP and overall infrastructure and forcing other instances to either adapt to that, or get left behind one by one, similar to what google does regardless of W3C and other browsers have to adapt even though it goes against the agreed standard.

    If meta gains a foothold in the fediverse and eventually start isolating the smaller instances, it’s going to be the email situation all over again, we’ll have just a few large trusted providers and the rest will be a seemingly unsafe niche that most people avoid. Giving them the benefit of the doubt is just foolish, meta will not let a few fediverse admins dictate their policy (even assuming they have the backbone to stand up to them, and considering the recent meeting/NDA/“shareholder” drama most of them definitely don’t).

    • CyanPurple@kbin.social
      28·
      2 years ago

      Better to nip it in the bud than let it fester like a wound. Give companies as evil as meta an inch and they’ll take a mile.

    • TheYang@lemmy.ml
      13·
      2 years ago

      The issue is once you open these floodgates you’re not going to be able to close them, at least not without alienating a vast majority of users on both sides.

      I mean, users of Meta producs are already plenty alienated from Lemmy etc, aren’t they?

      once meta gains the majority of users and content on its instances (and this is really more of a “when”, not “if” situation)

      I mean, it’s a matter of… minutes? hours?, probably not days even.
      That’s why I’d like to be able to talk to them.

      they can start making changes to AP and overall infrastructure and forcing other instances to either adapt to that, or get left behind one by one, similar to what google does regardless of W3C and other browsers have to adapt even though it goes against the agreed standard.

      And I agree that these are very very dangerous. I wouldn’t say they could only be bad, but still.
      Anyway, not following bad changes by meta would leave people where?
      Exactly where they are right now.
      In that case, Meta joining the fediverse would have been a failed experiment.

      it’s going to be the email situation all over again, we’ll have just a few large trusted providers and the rest will be a seemingly unsafe niche that most people avoid.
      I have to say… That seems like a win though.

      Billions of people using interoparable software to talk to each other. Email is a brilliant success!
      Yes, having “few” larger instances isn’t great, but on the other hand most companies run their own email server, and those talk fine with anyone else.
      Doesn’t seem like a terrible result to me.
      Much rather “the Email situation” than the “whatsapp situation” or “signal situation” or “facebook situation” or “reddit situation” or “instagram situation” or “tiktok situation” where you have to join that specific thing to talk to people.

      • Kaldo@kbin.social
        18·
        2 years ago

        Anyway, not following bad changes by meta would leave people where?
        Exactly where they are right now.
        In that case, Meta joining the fediverse would have been a failed experiment.

        Not really, in the greater context of meta controlling the vast majority of fediverse we would be the ones that are a failed experiment, a niche group of old people yelling at clouds, not willing to get with the times and join the instance that has all the content, all the users and all the new tech improvements. Just look at how much shit beehaw got for temporarily defederating the 2 largest lemmy instances, now imagine when that happens to your instance and it gets cut off from meta permanently. It’d be like trying to maintain a twitter competitor while twitter was still in its golden age.

        Billions of people using interoparable software to talk to each other. Email is a brilliant success!

        People don’t create private instances or join smaller communities for their email provider, they go to gmail, hotmai or even protonmail for the promise of stability, safety and compatibility with others, not getting listed as spam bots or their mail going straight into trash. Companies have dedicated people to handle this but in my experience even they just end up using microsoft or google software in the background, just with their custom domain. It is a big success for email and these corporations, it is a terrible story for the open and community-controlled internet and fediverse.

        • TheYang@lemmy.ml
          4·
          2 years ago

          a niche group of old people yelling at clouds, not willing to get with the times and join the instance that has all the content, all the users and all the new tech improvements.

          I feel like this already describes us pretty darn well.
          So I don’t see the disadvantage to potentially going back here.

          People don’t create private instances or join smaller communities for their email provider, they go to gmail, hotmai or even protonmail for the promise of stability, safety and compatibility with others, not getting listed as spam bots or their mail going straight into trash.

          you mean like the 89.5% of active users of kbin being on kbin.social or 50% of active lemmy users being on lemmy.ml, lemmy.world or beehaw.org?
          That’s just normal, and as long as it’s still possible to create smaller communities it’s fine.

          • Kaldo@kbin.social
            11·
            2 years ago

            I feel like this already describes us pretty darn well.
            So I don’t see the disadvantage to potentially going back here.

            Not quite sure what your point is, just general apathy? Currently the servers you listed are practically 100% of fediverse, we’re literally the early adopters right now and not the isolated obsolete old people. If meta comes you’re not going to get to “go back here”, that’s the whole point of discussion - what them coming means for the current fediverse and what kind of damage it can cause.

            you mean like the 89.5% of active users of kbin being on kbin.social or 50% of active lemmy users being on lemmy.ml, lemmy.world or beehaw.org?

            Fediverse has gotten a massive sudden influx of players and it’s natural that everyone rushed the few available instances. If anything, the fact that it’s split between kbin.social, lemmy.ml, lemmy.world, beehaw rather than everyone being on just one is already a good sign.

            as long as it’s still possible to create smaller communities it’s fine.

            ¯\(ツ)/¯
            You can still do the same on reddit yet you felt the need to come here, so obviously you care at least a bit about outside interference.

            • TheYang@lemmy.ml
              4·
              2 years ago

              Not quite sure what your point is, just general apathy?

              That we have different perspectives. I already see us as the old guys shouting at the clouds (of reddit etc) for being bad. I certainly shout enough at most of Metas and Googles and Apples and Tencents products to fit that bill. I certainly don’t have all of the technology that some other people use, because I’m not willing to sell my soul to those companies any more.
              I don’t feel like an early adopter. Lemmy is 4 years old, ActivityPub is 5 years old, Mastodon is 7 Years old.
              I feel much more like a niche idiot who doesn’t want to give FAANG the rights to his data, and because of that doesn’t live with the times and doesn’t have google maps, isn’t on instagram for my friends to reach and doesn’t know about the latest tiktok trend.

              If meta comes you’re not going to get to “go back here”, that’s the whole point of discussion - what them coming means for the current fediverse and what kind of damage it can cause.

              No, it’s about what happens here when meta comes. We will not stop it.
              And yes, Meta can do quite a lot of damage, although I’d guess a “non-meta-fediverse” i.e. a fediverse that completely blocks all meta-content would reasonably quickly look just like this, because it’s what we have right now.
              Anyway, because of the damage they can do, one should talk to them. Even if you can’t sway them one iota, you learn of their plans, and can act accordingly.

              You can still do the same on reddit yet you felt the need to come here, so obviously you care at least a bit about outside interference.
              No I can’t create a small reddit and federate with my friends small reddit, let alone the mother-reddit.
              I can’t even create a small (modern) reddit, as the code is not open anymore.

              • Kaldo@kbin.social
                3·
                2 years ago

                I don’t think there’s a point in continuing this discussion, we obviously have different expectations and experiences about this. I’ll just leave you with this article that is being spread around that says all of what I’ve been trying to say in a much more detailed and sourced way. https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html

                Maybe you get something from it that you couldn’t from my comments, otherwise I just hope you’re right and history doesn’t repeat yet again, somehow.