First of all, social democrat doesn’t mean “watered down socialist”. It means a socialist who favors a democratic electoral structure.
Second, these aren’t tiers. If soc dem was somehow “less socialist” than “socialist” (it isn’t, see above), it would still not be “worse”, just a different set of values.
Social Democrat (which I think is what Bernie is closest to) is not socialist, it is the variant of capitalism used in many European countries (not limited to) like the Scandinavian countries.
Democratic socialist is socialist
The term “social democracy” is very deceiving nowadays since it does not pertain anymore to the roots of the ideology which has changed quite drastically in the last century.
The original premise was that socialism could be achieved through reform and not revolution (hence it parted ways with the Marxist position). That is, the State’s institutions were suitable enough to “eventually” or “some day” lead to a socialist mode of production, and so cooperation with the state and, by extension, the bourgeoisie were incremental for socialism. This is why socdem parties were firm believers that change comes from the parliamentary electoral structure (Esson, 2022). I am not going to argue why this is problematic—Marx and Engels have said enough regarding this.
However, social democracy as we know it in the modern age is vastly different from what it used to be. The ideology in the 70’s has become attached to the Third Way and socdem parties throughout the world gradually adopted neoliberal policies, pressured by electoral competition. And the Scandinavian countries, home of social democracy, are an exemplary case to this. Just compare their parties’ agenda before and after WW2 and you will see what I am talking about.
To refer to “social democracy” as anything less than capitalism would be factually fallacious.
Not quite true. SocDem means a Social Democrat, ie a Capitalist in favor of strong social safety nets. Social Democrats are not Socialists, and the Nordic Countries are perfect examples of Social Democracies. They have high Unionization, generous social safety nets, and rely on Capitalism as their mode of production.
You’re confusing Social Democrats with Democratic Socialists. Democratic Socialists are generally Socialists who favor liberal democracy over Democratic Centralism, Anarchism, Direct Democracy, Soviet Democracy, or any other form of Democracy. Think America, but when Workers own the Means of Production. They also tend to be more in favor of reform over revolution, though not necessarily.
I agree that there aren’t tiers of Socialism, either Workers own the Means of Production or they don’t, but I had to correct the bit on Social Democracy.
You linked to an AI-generated site which just regurgitates real information, and even so does not in any way contradict what I said, as if this was a dunk
Socdem is like “socialism without science fiction and murdering people”. So a lot more ethical, quite a lot more practical, but also doesn’t quite get nearly everything done socialists typically would like to get done.
Bernie’s not a socialist.
elabtorate?
Soc dem at best.
First of all, social democrat doesn’t mean “watered down socialist”. It means a socialist who favors a democratic electoral structure.
Second, these aren’t tiers. If soc dem was somehow “less socialist” than “socialist” (it isn’t, see above), it would still not be “worse”, just a different set of values.
Social Democrat (which I think is what Bernie is closest to) is not socialist, it is the variant of capitalism used in many European countries (not limited to) like the Scandinavian countries. Democratic socialist is socialist
Edit: they sound similar but are really not
The term “social democracy” is very deceiving nowadays since it does not pertain anymore to the roots of the ideology which has changed quite drastically in the last century.
The original premise was that socialism could be achieved through reform and not revolution (hence it parted ways with the Marxist position). That is, the State’s institutions were suitable enough to “eventually” or “some day” lead to a socialist mode of production, and so cooperation with the state and, by extension, the bourgeoisie were incremental for socialism. This is why socdem parties were firm believers that change comes from the parliamentary electoral structure (Esson, 2022). I am not going to argue why this is problematic—Marx and Engels have said enough regarding this.
However, social democracy as we know it in the modern age is vastly different from what it used to be. The ideology in the 70’s has become attached to the Third Way and socdem parties throughout the world gradually adopted neoliberal policies, pressured by electoral competition. And the Scandinavian countries, home of social democracy, are an exemplary case to this. Just compare their parties’ agenda before and after WW2 and you will see what I am talking about.
To refer to “social democracy” as anything less than capitalism would be factually fallacious.
Not quite true. SocDem means a Social Democrat, ie a Capitalist in favor of strong social safety nets. Social Democrats are not Socialists, and the Nordic Countries are perfect examples of Social Democracies. They have high Unionization, generous social safety nets, and rely on Capitalism as their mode of production.
You’re confusing Social Democrats with Democratic Socialists. Democratic Socialists are generally Socialists who favor liberal democracy over Democratic Centralism, Anarchism, Direct Democracy, Soviet Democracy, or any other form of Democracy. Think America, but when Workers own the Means of Production. They also tend to be more in favor of reform over revolution, though not necessarily.
I agree that there aren’t tiers of Socialism, either Workers own the Means of Production or they don’t, but I had to correct the bit on Social Democracy.
https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-socialism-and-social-democracy/
You linked to an AI-generated site which just regurgitates real information, and even so does not in any way contradict what I said, as if this was a dunk
Socdem is like “socialism without science fiction and murdering people”. So a lot more ethical, quite a lot more practical, but also doesn’t quite get nearly everything done socialists typically would like to get done.
I’ve always found him rightwing compared to some of the Canadian politicians. But yea. That’s our world.
“The cost of compromise.” It’s telling * and sad that we consider rw pols “left.”
*edited
His personal belief, or his political position?