I usually think of myself as a libertarian, but end up getting into arguments with other people who think they’re libertarians. My version of the libertarian government has a very powerful EPA, child protective services, and fda. Because the freedom to do what you want with the things you own does not extend to polluting. Children are their own humans and needs their freedom protected, you don’t own them and can’t abuse them just because they live in your house. Also you can make and eat whatever you want, but you’re not allowed to poison people.
It’s like the phrase, your right to wave your fists in the air ends at my nose. Do whatever the hell you want, as long as it’s not hurting anyone. But it’s not a trust based system.
I always identified as libertarian, then had surgery, lost my job, became homeless. I’ve seen firsthand how important things like Medicare, ssi, social services are. Yeah, a lot of people using these programs are lifers, don’t care about getting a job. But there are a lot of people who just need help, women fleeing domestic abuse, people with legitimate physical or mental disabilities that make it hard to hold jobs. Many see this help as essential, but temporary, they want to get back on their feet, start working.
Those “lifers” will quite often also just not be fit to work. Physically, sure, but they might be mentally fucked. I don’t mean full schizophrenia or something, just… broken people. Saw it all around me growing up, literally in my neighbors. People that were at some point just discarded. They can’t get a job and the longer they can’t get one, the less likely it is they’ll ever get one. They fall into alcoholism, health deteriorates… 20 years later the chances of them getting a job are slim to none because nobody would hire them. They just end up stuck, lost in a system that doesn’t care about them.
I know a lot of libertarians. I think a lot do accept that the government is going to do some amount of provision for poor or sick people or children. But many are very skeptical of these services, it’s true.
Please don’t take this the wrong way. I’m assuming you’re saying you’re philosophically libertarian, and not Libertarian as in a particular party, because you didn’t capitalize the word but could be mistaken…
So you’re a liberal that doesn’t like to label themselves that way? Why throw your hat into a ring with all the rest of that batshit crazy shit if you believe in a strong centralized government and regulation (ie support for a strong FDA, EPA, and CPS)? The things you appear to support are philosophically liberal ideals. What things make you want to label yourself libertarian that conflict with a liberal philosophy?
Again, genuinely curious because libertarians tend to be either liberals that don’t like that label, or batshit crazy racists that want the end of times so they can shoot minorities. And I’m just endlessly fascinated by both types of people. Also I’m always on the look out for the elusive 3rd type of libertarian.
Where specifically does your philosophy diverge from liberalism. What parts of it seem conformist and what made you feel that way? In my understanding libertarian-socialist, with a lean to anarchist, seems to be liberalism without the label. So just trying to figure out the specifics of your personal philosophy.
Do you believe in private property? Regulation of commerce? Do you think social safety nets should be maintained by the government? Emergency/public services like fire departments, school, and utilities? Taking a step back, do you think the government should collect taxes? Again, just curious where your personal philosophy diverges and why. Not trying to put you on the defense or anything, just genuinely curious.
Same here, my version of libertarianism is basically socialism, which tends to greatly offend other “libertarians”. And socialists too, for that matter.
I mean, it’s still sort of a trust based system even with the FDA. It just becomes, “do I trust the FDA?” instead of the market or someone else. I think they’re generally pretty good. But then sometimes they get pressure from Big Dairy and stomp all over farmers producing almond milk because calling it milk is deceptive in their eyes. And other times they block life saving drugs from being approved for years while sick people die, even after the drugs have been proven safe. So, there’s still trade offs.
I don’t think an FDA with token regulations that companies can follow to the letter without actually providing safety (and to some extent EPA) help that much. I think especially for food safety the best way to ensure it is not by providing the shield of “we were following FDA regulations” and instead by allowing companies to be very vulnerable to suits.
I usually think of myself as a libertarian, but end up getting into arguments with other people who think they’re libertarians. My version of the libertarian government has a very powerful EPA, child protective services, and fda. Because the freedom to do what you want with the things you own does not extend to polluting. Children are their own humans and needs their freedom protected, you don’t own them and can’t abuse them just because they live in your house. Also you can make and eat whatever you want, but you’re not allowed to poison people.
It’s like the phrase, your right to wave your fists in the air ends at my nose. Do whatever the hell you want, as long as it’s not hurting anyone. But it’s not a trust based system.
I always identified as libertarian, then had surgery, lost my job, became homeless. I’ve seen firsthand how important things like Medicare, ssi, social services are. Yeah, a lot of people using these programs are lifers, don’t care about getting a job. But there are a lot of people who just need help, women fleeing domestic abuse, people with legitimate physical or mental disabilities that make it hard to hold jobs. Many see this help as essential, but temporary, they want to get back on their feet, start working.
Those “lifers” will quite often also just not be fit to work. Physically, sure, but they might be mentally fucked. I don’t mean full schizophrenia or something, just… broken people. Saw it all around me growing up, literally in my neighbors. People that were at some point just discarded. They can’t get a job and the longer they can’t get one, the less likely it is they’ll ever get one. They fall into alcoholism, health deteriorates… 20 years later the chances of them getting a job are slim to none because nobody would hire them. They just end up stuck, lost in a system that doesn’t care about them.
I know a lot of libertarians. I think a lot do accept that the government is going to do some amount of provision for poor or sick people or children. But many are very skeptical of these services, it’s true.
Please don’t take this the wrong way. I’m assuming you’re saying you’re philosophically libertarian, and not Libertarian as in a particular party, because you didn’t capitalize the word but could be mistaken…
So you’re a liberal that doesn’t like to label themselves that way? Why throw your hat into a ring with all the rest of that batshit crazy shit if you believe in a strong centralized government and regulation (ie support for a strong FDA, EPA, and CPS)? The things you appear to support are philosophically liberal ideals. What things make you want to label yourself libertarian that conflict with a liberal philosophy?
Again, genuinely curious because libertarians tend to be either liberals that don’t like that label, or batshit crazy racists that want the end of times so they can shoot minorities. And I’m just endlessly fascinated by both types of people. Also I’m always on the look out for the elusive 3rd type of libertarian.
You mean the original libertarians? Lol!
Not the one you responded to, but I do see myself as libertarian socialist - which is nothing else than an anarchist.
The right side always seems to want to steal the labels from our side, because freedom and liberty sells good…
A liberal on the other hand is a very comformist stance in my opinion
TIL that a libertarian socialist can be equated to an anarchist…
Time to go dive into another wikipedia hole regarding classical political theory.
Yes, traditionally,
However, that’s only one of the definitions. Libertarian capitalism, commonly known as anarcho-capitalism, is another type of anarchism.
Where specifically does your philosophy diverge from liberalism. What parts of it seem conformist and what made you feel that way? In my understanding libertarian-socialist, with a lean to anarchist, seems to be liberalism without the label. So just trying to figure out the specifics of your personal philosophy.
Do you believe in private property? Regulation of commerce? Do you think social safety nets should be maintained by the government? Emergency/public services like fire departments, school, and utilities? Taking a step back, do you think the government should collect taxes? Again, just curious where your personal philosophy diverges and why. Not trying to put you on the defense or anything, just genuinely curious.
I can (probably) sum it as “Person’s freedom ends where rights of other begins.”
Same here, my version of libertarianism is basically socialism, which tends to greatly offend other “libertarians”. And socialists too, for that matter.
I mean, it’s still sort of a trust based system even with the FDA. It just becomes, “do I trust the FDA?” instead of the market or someone else. I think they’re generally pretty good. But then sometimes they get pressure from Big Dairy and stomp all over farmers producing almond milk because calling it milk is deceptive in their eyes. And other times they block life saving drugs from being approved for years while sick people die, even after the drugs have been proven safe. So, there’s still trade offs.
I don’t think an FDA with token regulations that companies can follow to the letter without actually providing safety (and to some extent EPA) help that much. I think especially for food safety the best way to ensure it is not by providing the shield of “we were following FDA regulations” and instead by allowing companies to be very vulnerable to suits.
There isn’t a lot of consistency in the courts.
There should be with a proper justice…