One thing I hate about guys that complain about Mary sues is that they never complain about “Gary Stus.” For example, Light Yagami was kind of a Gary Stu. He had an IQ of 215–230, he was handsome, the most popular kid in his school, and his family was upper middle class. Jace Wayland from Shadowhunters is an arrogant, brooding bad boy who’s a master martial artist, who women fawn over, and is basically the fantasy of what men and women think a cool bad boy is. Tony Stark is a multi-billionaire with multiple armored, superpowered suits that basically make him Superman, and Superman himself is basically a god.

Are these characters bad? No. I love all of them, but let’s be real here… they could be considered male Mary Sues, and these guys never bring that up.

Now, not every character or show has to be relatable. Peter Parker works because he’s an everyman; however, the opposite can also be true, and people like fantasy escapism. That’s why soap operas about wealthy people or sitcoms about financially stable families are popular, because it’s a form of escapism this goes for Mary Sues and Gary Stus too.

  • RobotToaster@mander.xyz
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    12
    ·
    13 hours ago

    Tony Stark is also a barely functioning alcoholic, and a lot of people complained that the MCU skipped over that.

  • PlzGibHugs@piefed.ca
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    13 hours ago

    I think you’re misunderstanding the premise of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu character. A big part of definition is that they are almost entirely without flaw, and are generally (although not always) meant to be an author’s self-insert. Light and Tony Stark for example, are both intelligent but also stubborn, arogant, privileged assholes who are practically defined by their flaws. Superman could be considered a Gary Stu, esspecially in some of the earlier and simpler iterations but he’s honestly such a simple character in general that his lack of flaws doesn’t stand out.

    The examples that do come to mind are Kirito from Sword Art Online, some versions of Batman, or Butcher from The Boys comics specifically. These are characters that are portrayed as unambiguously good, near perfect men who win every conflict are uniquely capable of solving every problem. Kirito is almost universally disliked, Batman depends a lot on the iteration but generally isn’t well-liked as a character, and I’ve heard nothing positive about The Boys comics (although its less popular in general).

    As for why there is more criticism of Mary Sues, I think its not directly because people are harsher on female characters (not that they aren’t) so much as because they’re more common, esspecially in popular culture. Writing fiction is more cultural acceptable for young girls than young guys, so you end up with more amateur writers writing Mary Sues. In professional projects (notably often led by men due to industry sexism), it tends to be a matter of design-by-committee where they pick a man as a lead to match the male majority, and just throw in a token strong woman as an afterthought.

    Now, not every character or show has to be relatable. Peter Parker works because he’s an everyman; however, the opposite can also be true, and people like fantasy escapism. That’s why soap operas about wealthy people or sitcoms about financially stable families are popular, because it’s a form of escapism this goes for Mary Sues and Gary Stus too.

    I think a big distinction here is where the enjoyment comes from. You can have a story with a Mary Sue/Gary Stu that is still enjoyable, but generally that specific character adds nothing to the story themselves. For example, if you enjoy Sword Art Online, its for the setting, or the action, or the self-insert-fantasy. Its not for Kirito, and any time you put any focus on him, the story gets weaker. Compare that to, for example, Light, who has meaningful moral complexity despite his unmatched abilities, or Saitama, who despite his infinite power is made relatable through his struggles of daily life. The problem with Mary Sues/Gary Stus isn’t their power or self-insert nature, its the focus on a character who is flat, incapable of growth, and/or trivializes any plot.

  • superduperpirate@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    14 hours ago

    I don’t think Mary Sue or Gary Stu characters are intrinsically bad. Provided that the work is honest about it.

    I prefer characters who have realistic strengths and weaknesses, and who face credible tests in the plot, which they aren’t guaranteed to pass. I like characters who fail from time to time.

    I do sometimes want some escapism and such, so I’m glad Mary Sue and Gary Stu types still exist.

    • neidu3@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      11
      ·
      13 hours ago

      I love how Isaac Asimov is an actual side character in “Murder at the A.B.A.” (written by Asimov himself). And the character of Asimov is written as a condescending douche that the protagonist can’t stand.

  • Sunsofold@lemmings.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    2
    ·
    11 hours ago

    I have a hypothesis people seek out in fiction what is missing in their life. If everything is going well, people seek out cathartic drama. If everything is going poorly, they seek out cathartic resolution. Part of why people are so into things like comic book stories is how they usually have a clearly defined villain, problem, and solution, while much of our world right now doesn’t feel like there are any solutions to the problems, or the solutions are so complex people can’t understand them, or even the solutions seem like problems in themselves.

  • UndergroundParking@lemmy.cafe
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    13 hours ago

    I don’t know half the names in your post.

    I don’t now your age.

    Hazarding a guess - I’d say you’re no more than mid twenties.

    Having said all that - people, on average, are dumb. They pretend to be experts in fields they’ve had a job at for a while, but most got there by accident and not due to merrit.

    Fiction justifies it, therefore it’s popular.

    Brace the downvotes from disappointments.

  • FreshParsnip@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    3
    arrow-down
    12
    ·
    13 hours ago

    Because the kind of people who complain about Mary Sues are usually just misogynists