Mike Dulak grew up Catholic in Southern California, but by his teen years, he began skipping Mass and driving straight to the shore to play guitar, watch the waves and enjoy the beauty of the morning. “And it felt more spiritual than any time I set foot in a church,” he recalled.
Nothing has changed that view in the ensuing decades.
“Most religions are there to control people and get money from them,” said Dulak, now 76, of Rocheport, Missouri. He also cited sex abuse scandals in Catholic and Southern Baptist churches. “I can’t buy into that,” he said.
Religion ruins everything.
Besides architecture. Cathedrals are dope. But everything else, yeah.
I don’t hate some older religious music.
Religion was at the center of everything 500 years ago. It’s gonna take credit for a lot of stuff because you could barely do anything art related without religious involvement.
And every now and then they’d go on a rampage destroying other people’s and eras’ art.
Still happening, even… such as the Taliban destroying ancient statues.
Don’t forget about the part where the only way you could be somewhat literate was if you were indoctrinated into their little cult.
I do like the sense of harmony that comes from singing together, but yes you don’t need a church for that.
If only they could live in that harmony
The Shining’s opening theme was based on a medieval Christian hymn, day of wrath or Dies Irae. I love deep vocals and latin lyrics, it’s so soothing.
Not all musicians believe in god but all believe in Bach.
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Gregorian chants are epic
That first Enigma record is a regular in my listening because of exactly that.
But maybe stay out of rock?
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I agree…except the Sagrada Familia which fills me with irrational anger. Looks like Poseidon walked on shore and squeezed out a sand turd. It’s so goddamn hideous to me. If I was the god who Gaudi built it for, he would not make it into heaven. I hate it so much.
Not really, it’s just that people can’t stand by this
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Christopher Hitchens wrote a book called Religion Poisons Everything. Same idea, long form. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens
Some religions. Depending on how you use the word. Legally Buddhism is a federally recognized religion for example.
And it has so little in common with how Christian’s use the word I consider it a misnomer. But I’ll keep enjoying the federal protections.
I wish you ppl would stop with your fetishization for any religion outside of the Abrahamic ones. Sikhs are just like any group of ppl and have committed fucked shit in the name of their ideology. Imperial (let’s invade and massacre Asia) Japan was Buddhist who used it as justification for nationalism, violence, and persecution. Which sounds pretty damn similar to what Jews, Muslims, and Christians do/did. And let’s not forget Hindu nationalism and their problematic caste system
And no this isn’t a bashing of religion as a whole because I personally find the argument that religion is the root of all evil as childish. I have no issues with anyone believing anything they want. It only becomes a problem when you feel the need to impose your belief on others. EVERY group including religion, race, class, ethnicity, sex, political party, etc is guilty of that
The non-Abrahamic religions stick with thr peace and love parts in the US because they are not the dominant religion. Any religion ends up being cooped into being used to justify violence when it is on top even when the core tenets are supposed to be peaceful and accepting.
This also tends to be true of most human organizational structures, but religion adds a layer that make it easier for members to accept extreme behavior by the people in their group.
Buddhism was probably 10% the justification for nationalism that Shinto was in Japan, so that’s a pretty bad example.
Also, using Buddhism to encourage nationalism ≠ Buddhisms fault
Every arguments you made can be used for Christianity
I would make the same argument, and say that radicalized religion is the issue, not religion itself.
Most every religion becomes radicalized over time, but that doesnt define the inital religious teachings.
So yeah, Christian nationalism ≠ Christianity’s fault.
People will fetishize anything and use anything to justify violence.
Buddhist practitioners can be as dogmatic as Christians, but having been brought up as one and studied the other extensively, Buddhism is not a religion in the Western sense of the word.
In fact there’s many teachings on avoiding dogmatic views in both ancient and modern Buddhism. Because dogmatism brings about the exact suffering we’re talking about.
Yes, Buddhists are as failable as anyone else. But the heart of the dharma begins with right view, which essentially means, don’t be dogmatic!
Which is the exact opposite of how I was brought up in a Christian family.
Moralists with authoritarian leanings are the problem.
Plenty of those around nowadays who, instead of a religions, latch on to some well meaning cause and then proceed to try and shove other people around under the cover of said cause, bringing along the more tribalist (hence unthinking and easilly manipulated with the right words) members of the cause, all the way to pretty much pogroms and purges (though, fortunatelly, not normally involving killing people).
Whilst the vehicle (religion, some ideologies, politics, any “cause” supposedly beyond questioning including nationalism), being something that most people follow in a mindless way is ideal for such subvertion and abuse as an easy source of supporting usefull idiots for people indulging their lust for power over others) the reall problem is, IMHO, a certain type of individual who will seek social situations they can abuse to be powerful (all the way down to the school social bully who uses connection rather than physicallity to have power over others), so it’s really such people we should be weary of and alert for rather than their chosen vehicles.
Yeah absolutely, and the problem is they’ll always find an excuse - someone on here recently argued to me that since we punch Nazis we should also punch people who use words like ‘unalive’ because it’s an attack on our culture - he was being entirely serious too.
You can see people rubbing their hands in glee at every climate change story too and it’s scary, I’ve been involved with a lot of green groups and eco-positive movements which are full of wonderful people who really care about making a better world - then there are overly online lunatics who never lifted a finger to help native species or anything like that but have decided it’s a wonderful excuse to live out their most destructive and hateful fantasies.
Religion is a way of harnessing that awful impulse in people and using it for the benefit of a small theocratic aristocracy, it’s a way of saying ‘you can get away with being the awfull person you want to be if you do it in the name of our gang and to our enemies’
Buddhism has a talent for conversion by syncretism. Tibetian Buddhism is Buddhism meeting Tibetian Shamanism, Chan/Zen is Buddhism meeting Taoism (which already was very close), both Therevada and Mayayana are rather more Hindu, and what we’re seeing in the west is Humanist/Christian, depending on the practitioner. A good dividing line might be belief in reincarnation: Legit Atheists don’t care, hell-conditioned folks find relief, whereas originally the whole thing was Hindu and Buddhism calls it dhukka (suffering, also mind that it’s tied into the caste system) and promises a way to break out of it. So what was a jail in one context serves as a comfy blanket in another.
In that sense it’s very much a mistake to see Buddhism as a uniform whole, or western adoption as appropriation or fetish, or really infer terribly much about one strain of Buddhism from the other.
Then, second note: All those eastern things should be compared, if you want to compare them properly, not to western religion or churches but to that and the whole philosophical heritage dating back to at least Socrates. And gods know in that context we don’t need religion to fuck up, we’re still recovering from Descartes and like to ignore inconvenient truths such that Newton was an Alchemist. Christians like to ignore that all the stuff that is actually valuable about Christianity, is more than memes furnished to propagate the system (and doing damage while doing so), is lifted from the Stoics. Racism once was “scientific”. I could go on and on.
Shame about the genocide, huh?
That was perpetrated by Buddhist nationalists in Myanmar, whos actions are so fargone from traditional Buddhist teachings they can safely be considered not Buddhists IMO.
Ah like the Christian nationalists are so far gone they don’t represent Christianity right? Such a dismissive take against the reality of religions and their point to be a source of control over a population and society.
Yup
I used to think Buddhism was an exception, sadly it is not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence
As found in other religious traditions, Buddhism has an extensive history of violence dating back to its inception.
Buddhist sects as a whole are not exception, but I couldn’t find an example of violence at “its inception”. All the examples I could find are from much later.
Even religious groups hate organized religion. They just make an exception for the one they happen to be part of.
How thoughtful of God to arrange matters so that, wherever you happen to be born, the local religion always turns out to be the true one
- Richard Dawkins
Ricky Gervais said something super interesting to Stephen Colbert, who is a Catholic. It was something like “We actually agree on a lot more than you think. You think that thousands of other religions aren’t true. I think the same thing, plus one more.”
Early Christians were accused of being atheists by the Romans, since they didn’t believe in most gods.
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Sometimes I wonder what Abraham would think knowing literal billions of people worldwide worship the god he made up.
And what he thinks about how all the different sects all hate each other so much.
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Nah, probably not something in Enlgish
The one thing most religions agree on is that all other religions should be eradicated from the world until only the true one remains. Turns out they are ALL right!
I don’t mind people going to Church and practicing their religion, as long as they stay in their lanes and they’re not trying to force their religious beliefs on everybody else. Trying to better yourself and your community is great, there’s a ton of really nice people out there who go to Church and are just all around good people. It’s all the assholes that think their belief trumps everyone else’s rights that need to eat shit.
Not minding your own business is pretty much why Europeans settled North America…
The Pilgrims love to say they escaped persecution, but really they were far right extremists who were all pissed off most of Europe wouldn’t follow their strict rules.
So they came to America and started pumping out as many kids as possible. With the goal to become the majority so they could force everyone to follow their rules.
We’re worse off because there’s no more “empty” land to send them all too. If we ever colonize another planet, it’s 100% going to be extremists overwhelmingly signing up to go first. Until then, we’re stuck with them.
The sun would be a good place, plenty of space.
“Staying in your lane” is the exact opposite of what Christians and Muslims are explicitly ordered to do. Convert acquisition is the primary objective of both faiths.
The Bible says if a family member considers another religion (or you just suspect they are) it’s your duty to God to kill them before it spreads to other people in your family.
It’s why ill never trust the people who claim they have to follow the bible literally. Either they don’t know what it says, or they’re absolute psychos.
Edit:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:6-10&version=KJV
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage
Well, I heard somewhere that it is written in the bible that those who scorn the bible will be visited by apocalypse, fire, earthquake, and flood which will obliterate your cities, but for those who believe in the bible will save themselves and find true redemption.
And I also heard somewhere it may have also stated in the Bible that the power and the greatness of God cannot be denied. Those who reject the Path to enlightenment must be destroyed.
Quote from the Bible?
It talks to Jews in ancient Israel about gods of nations that surrounded them.
Oh…
So some of it is outdated and we shouldn’t follow the bible literally?
I already don’t, you better go tell the Christians to shut the fuck up about LGBTQ…
Good job on discovering dispensationalism. About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
It’s hard to tell what you were trying to say, but any attempt to clarify that is going to make it really easy to point out how wrong you are.
So I don’t expect you to even try
Btw:
For anyone wondering what “dispensationalism” means, it’s a thing Christians invented so they can ignore the parts of the bible that they don’t agree with. While saying the parts they do believe in are the literal words of God and have to be followed.
It’s a shitty cop out
About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
That’s just simple not true.
In the old testament it says that all homosexuals must be killed, and in the new testament that homosexuals cannot go to heaven.
How is that a positive light?
The Bible does not say that. What.
Huh, til
Exactly this.
Dont forget the part about having as many children as possible and convert them too.
There is no religion telling their servants to love their children even if they are not religious.
Honestly while I get that the whole “you do you” mantra is the politically appropriate line these days…
No, I’m fucking not ok with people practicing their religions.
I’m really not ok with people telling their children that it’s not only possible for dead bodies to get back up and float up into the sky, but that it 100% happened and is the only reason they aren’t going to suffer eternally.
I’ll not ok with getting together to talk about how men are inherently better than women and that it was fine that an old dude raped a 9 year old because she was mature for her age.
I’m not ok with passing along the instructions that who your parents were defines an appropriate social caste for the rest of your life based on the supposed mechanics of resurrection.
These are not appropriate things for a modern society, and honestly I’m tired of pretending that it is fine.
Yes, I think the right to have the government not interfere in religion is important, but that’s a separate issue from whether or not I’m ‘fine’ with the superstitions from an age when people peed on their hands to clean them continuing to be given a social pass purely out of respect for ancestral tradition.
The thing is the whole purpose of religion is to force beliefs into others to attract them into the religion and make them pay money. THAT’S LITERALLY WHY RELIGIONS WERE INVENTED.
There is no “Im religious but I let other live their lifes.” They are constantly being told to invite friends and family to convert them and to have 10 children, so the children can be converted too.
They need to start paying taxes too. Church is a business of graft.
I’ve heard about the “rise of the nones” for fucking years now. I’m in my mid 30s. When the fuck will this trend translate into policy reform
When the all 80+ year olds in congress
retiredie outYep.
Doesn’t matter how religious voters are when the options are both hardcore Christian.
Like, Biden not being actively anti-abortion was enough to get American bishops to start talking if they should try and get every Catholic church in America to refuse to give him communion.
He’s still not really pro-abortion, and we’ll never really know if that’s because his incredibly organized church is against it, or if he just doesn’t care enough to push for codifying abortion rights.
He’s the most high profile because he’s president, but lots of House Reps and Senators are in the same boat.
Organising nones is like herding cats. The evangelicals do not get their power from their number. They vote uniformly and reliably, turning out for every primary, local, and federal election.
We are a diverse bunch with diverse opinions.
I’ve been a none for a bit now, and often find myself disagreeing with the opinions of others. I also tend to be more centrist in my political leanings, whereas a lot (obviously not all) of nones or atheists tend to lean left, or in some cases are extreme leftists. In my opinion, extreme leftists are as harmful to society as the extreme right, but that’s a pretty unpopular opinion online.
Long story short, I agree with you on this.
Have you looked at the age of the average politician? It’ll change when they all die of old age and someone sensible from the younger generation takes over.
my concern is that they seem to have indoctrinated or allied with enough young people that i’m no longer certain it will matter.
When the nones outnumber the religious which is still a while away.
Around the time the majority of our lawmakers learned about the Vietnam war in a history book.
This is a question of attrition. Religiosity is dying out and so, in a sense, is neo-conservativism, and that’s why there is such a huge push to the right in many parts of the world. It’s the last desperate gasp of people who know that their time is up. They are doing everything they can to stop it from happening but it’s inevitable.
The problem is that as moderate critical thinkers leave religious organizations the organizations are becoming more polarized by the foolhardy remnants which leads to large organizational efforts to do stupid nonsensical things.
Instead of having anti lgbt protests, or anti abortion protests, we should really start having anti religion protests. They are really a cancer to society.
I think the only thing we lose is community – I’m jealous that religious people automatically have that.
The solution of course is trying to return to having neighborhood communities.
Join a bowling league.
Do anything every week with the same group and you’ll establish that same community…but without the grifting and shaming.
Instructions unclear, now stuck in MLM organization with grifting and shaming. :D
10/10 can confirm though it was Friday Magic Night for me.
But I’m introverted and my hobbies are video games :c
Exactly I started playing pool at a local hall right by my house. Great way of meeting new people.
Getting out and doing stuff in public is a great way of communicating.
Sounds great, but the local bowling alley in my rural redneck town was just sold and converted to a community church. 🫤
Go bowl down the isle of that church.
Not like they need it on any day except Sundays.
Actually, I quite like the idea of secretly setting up some pins and rolling the ball down the aisle on a Sunday.
You’re outta your element Donnie!
Love the idea here, but I wonder if there could be an alternative to religion/churches that still allows us to congregate and deliberate about meaningful, philosophical affairs that religion poked and prodded at.
I know The Satanic Temple seeks to do this in a way, but I wonder if our universities and colleges held more opportunities to engage with the general public on meta/physics, epistemology, ethics, etc., topics also challenged by religion, we might fill the rational void people might be seeking.
I’m telling you from experience that their “community” is fake. The people are fake. Under the fake stuff that looks nice on the outside is a deep culture of judgment and shame and fear. It’s not any community I would ever want. Like family get together for family’s that hate each other but they fake it.
To those who will try to tell me “well not ME or MY church.” I don’t care and I don’t believe you. I have been harmed too much too consistently by these groups.
Yeah I guess there’s an inherent danger with a community where going against groupthink is a sin
Like posting an unpopular opinion on Reddit or Lemmy. You’ll get down voted to hell if your opinion differs from the majority in that sub.
That’s just unpopular opinions, and I’ve made plenty of those before. It’s very different from doing something that my community thinks is a cosmic sin that will send me to hell.
I’m struggling to see how it’s different. Could you iterate a bit more? I’m a bit slow but I like learning :(
Of course. It’s the nature of the disagreement. And unpopular opinion about random topics is just an unpopular opinion. People will see me as an idiot, ignorant, or stupid. They may think I have questionable morals or priorities. But that’s it. I’m just another stupid person on the Internet. I can have some of these disagreements with friends where I have an unpopular opinion, but depending on the severity it’s inconsequential.
With a sin though, I’ve done something that goes against God’s word and rules. If I don’t ask for forgiveness, I will be eternally punished for it. Disagreements here are disagreements on what God says, which is heresy.
Does that make more sense?
There are for sure exceptions to this. But by and large this is absolutely spot on in my experience. It feels like getting together with paid actors that are hired to be your friend or sell you sometime in the end sometimes.
Under the fake stuff that looks nice on the outside is a deep culture of judgment and shame and fear.
Funny, that’s what Christianity seems to be mostly about anyway.
Not really. Only God has a right to judge us.
Try Humanism. Find your local chapter. Its the community of “church” without the need for god(s)
The solution could be more rooted in philosophy too, but it’s been a long time, at least since the time of the Greeks or Romans, since we’ve had Schools dedicated to the deliberation of meta/physics, ethics, epistemology, etc.
And I’m not talking about modern education here, the education that’s meant to bring up the youth and develop them into functioning adults. The Greek/Roman Schools to me seemed like places of conversation, debate, etc. that anyone could join (I know that philosophy was mostly restricted to the aristocracy in ancient times, but that would be the goal today).
Maybe the answer is modern schools today, but with an effort to host local communities for thought discourse. Maybe it would look like wrapping together TED Talks with the minds of debates you see in New York that are like full blown events.
And maybe universities do deliver this kind of activity for their community that I nor you have access to because they’re not near us. Dunno.
I think another aspect to consider is that after the pandemic, multigenerational homes have become more common. There could be a really great sense of community in having a bunch of large families raise their children as a village.
They really don’t. I grew up Evangelical, trust me, community was the last thing on those people’s minds. Granted, I understand where you’re coming from; there should be more communal spaces that don’t have religion as a requirement.
Ah yes, that sense of ‘community’ that only manifests when they all sit in their church, and vanishes the moment they all get back home.
I get more of a sense of community out of my model railway forums and my live steam club.
All I want is separation of church and state, like it’s supposed to be.
Even according to Jesus
Jesus is a real G compared to supply side right wing Jesus. If he ever does return, we’ll kill him again because he won’t be relatable to the rich.
Even if that dude were to return, he’d take one look at the modern day Pharisees his followers have become and think of the adage “burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me” and keep his mouth shut this time around.
It turns out that no, in fact there was no one with two good ears in the crowd after all, and only a fool would make that mistake twice.
If Jesus ever does come back, he won’t last ten minutes before they nail him to the cross again. Today’s Christianity is so far out of step with his supposed teachings, they might as well exist in different universes.
Or, you know, we could just ditch the church part entirely. Playing pretend about your favorite book is okay as a hobby I guess, but it doesn’t deserve government sanction or protection.
I say this as someone who went to religious school until 9th grade, and was deeply involved in church through 12th grade.
Read charitably, the Christian Bible is a bunch of fantasy role-playing bullshit. Read realistically, anything not attributed directly to Jesus is a bunch of pedantic repressive bullshit, with the occasional nice axiom thrown in (“grey hair is the splendor of the old” etc). The Apostle Paul, for example, was the original TCOT, and would be a megachurch pastor today. He just loved telling everyone how to live.
Jesus - if he actually existed - went into temples with a whip and literally started flipping tables. Today, he’d be exiled from the church his followers founded because he’s too “liberal” and “weak.”
Religion, and in particular the vast cult of that is American Evangelical Christianity, has no place in the modern world. If there is a God, they only take us further from him. It’s a tax-free business built on graft and hatred, which they relabel as “tolerance” and “love.”
Cut off the tax-exempt status of any church or ministry that speaks to a political end (e.g. “Julie Green Ministries”). If they’re really that altruistic and pure of heart with clarity of purpose, it shouldn’t stop their mission.
There is nothing special about expert knowledge in the fantasy world of the 1st and 2nd centuries. Theology is strictly a study of invented bullshit, with the aim of subjugating others. Even majoring in Harry Potter or the Star Wars Expanded Universe would be of greater benefit to society.
Religion has no positive use.
I used to have that really common thought of “I don’t care what you believe in. Just don’t try to push your opinion on me.”
No. It’s bullshit.
The very existence of religion is a psychological drain on society. We are all worse off the longer it stays around. There is no such thing as a good religious person and anyone who says they are religious I immediately distrust.
Yeah. It’s at the root of a lot of the problems with conservatives in the US. Religion trains people in believing because they were told to believe, and holding to these beliefs in the face of all suffering and hardship. It’s a gateway drug to conspiracy theories and paranoid delusions.
Gateway drug to conspiracy theories?
Religion IS a conspiracy theory
I don’t immediately distrust religious people but I do kind of roll my eyes and smirk a little bit on the inside.
If I’m lucky I can manage to keep the eyeroll and smirk on the inside. I’m kind of inelegant with social graces though.
There is no such thing as a good religious person
That’s a bridge too far for me.
Yes, faith is in and off itself detrimental to our society. Religiosity is a strong detrimental force, a mind-virus, a meme that damages the ability to clearly perceive reality.
But just like people who are infected with an infectious virus aren’t bad, not all religious people are automatically bad people. I don’t think they are good because they are religious, but that doesn’t mean they are not good or not religious. So let us not fall into the same absolutist thoughts as the fervent deniers of secular goodness.
The good ones enable the shitty ones.
Agreed.
I have met good people who are Christian. They usually don’t cowl all their behavior behind god.
There you’re friends dad, who barely knows you, who helps you get your car running so his kid and friends can make it to a metal show. He didn’t like metal, but he kept it to himself other than saying it wasn’t his genre, which is a fair statement.
Why did he devote an afternoon and a couple trips to auto zone? Because all in all we were good kids. He wanted us to have fun, but to arrive (and ultimately) come home safe.
The comment you are responding to is reactionary in nature and surely the result of a great deal of pain and trauma at the hands of the sort of people they are referring to. In this case, I think it is ok to let someone express their emotions and assume that they don’t really mean for it to be a universal statement.
Why would you assume they don’t mean it to be universally applied?
The biggest religions in the world harbor the largest rings of pedophiles, bigots and oppressors of women and children that exist.
There are surely religious people that consider themselves good and act in a moral way, but their support of organizations that allow and defend such abhorrent values and behavior defies that.
As someone put further down “the good ones enable the bad ones”. So while you or I might not take the same stance in our own lives, I can absolutely understand why someone might not want anything to do with religion or religious people.
I’m trying to be charitable to the person who started this part of the thread. There are most definitely perfectly good religious people out there though they are involved with toxic organizations.
Is being involved with a toxic organization not toxic? Or are you saying these people are victims of their religion?
IRT the first part, I think so. Even if you’re a genuinely kind person, if you support an organization that practices cruelty, you are supporting cruelty.
IRT the second part, I wasn’t saying that, but would agree with that statement–people are often a victim of their cultures.
There is no such thing as a good religious person
I’ve known extremely religious people that were very kind to everyone around them, only focused on doing good in the world, and never pushed their beliefs on anyone else. “Good” and “evil” are very reductive and simplistic terms. Good people can have beliefs that are not good for society and they are not completely defined by that. If we go to that absolute then there isn’t a good person that exists. Pretty much everyone harbors beliefs, irrespective of religion, that when examined may be detrimental to society, they just don’t know their own blind spots.
Well said. Though I will say that we need to stop giving religions passes for bigotry.
Churches in the US get huge tax breaks, can set up explicitly racist schools, or they can operate worse than the worst MLM. Some of the followers are somewhat to blame, but really it’s the organizations as a whole that need to be revisited.
Why should my tax dollars subsidize a church building where the pastor tells their congregation that people like me are an evil that should be purged from society? Why should they subsidize a pastor that has a private jet? Or a church that actively protects child abusers and/or wife beaters?
And frankly, it’s only certain religions that receive these sort of benefits. Any sort of native religion or niche religion won’t get half the benefits we give to multimillion dollar religions.
I’ve known extremely religious people that were very kind to everyone around them, only focused on doing good in the world
Being religious is not a requirement for doing good in the world. If the religion did not exist these extremely religious people you know could continue to do good in the world while not simultaneously supporting organizations that enable corruption, abuse, dishonesty, violence, oppression, etc, etc…
If anyone is still believing in these hokey stories or exploitative organizations they are either willfully ignorant to the world around them, gullible rubes who are victims of a centuries old scam, or actively benefitting from that exploitation.
I stand by my statements. Religion is a virus. It’s a net negative in the world that stands in the way of all human progress.
I was responding to you saying “there’s no such thing as a good religious person”. I don’t really disagree with the rest of your perspective, yet your arguing as if you assume I do. I think it’s reductive and crass to judge someone on a single data point. That was my primary point.
As a gay person, I have a saying that is similar: “When I meet someone who says they are conservative, I know that I have just met someone who wants me to suffer.”
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What is it you hate so much about religion? I could see disliking specific religious practices, but what problem does every religion share that makes you immediately distrust all religious people?
The conflation of personal belief with objective reality.
When someone tells me they are religious, they are saying the voices in their heads are more important than the voices in their ears. They are saying the vision in their mind’s eye is more important than the vision in their eyeballs.
When a schizophrenic tells us they are going to listen to the voices in their head, we should be worried. We should be worried even if their voices are currently telling them to be an upstanding member of society, because we don’t know what those voices will be saying tomorrow.
I find the comparison between religion and schizophrenia to be a little over the top. There is a big difference between believing something that cannot be proven true, and having actual schizophrenic delusions.
Religious beliefs don’t inherently impair your ability to function. And clearly they have some emotional function or value given that peoples around the world created their own unique religions without fail.
I really don’t see why you care so much about what people believe as long as their beliefs aren’t hurting anyone else. You are creating a problem where there is none.
There is a big difference between believing something that cannot be proven true, and having actual schizophrenic delusions.
I would argue the former is the more worrying of the two. We all know not to trust the schizophrenic.
But religious people aren’t just saying “God Bless You” when we sneeze. They are telling us how to vote, whether to wear masks, vaccinate our children, shun our neighbors, annihilate nations, and they are doing this on the basis of entirely unsupported, yet strongly held personal belief.
You are creating a problem where there is none.
Any suggestion that there isn’t a problem is demonstrably false, and your claim that I am creating the problem is gaslighting. I’m not going to waste a bunch of time pointing at a bunch of lesser religiously-supported evils to prove it. I’m just going to take them as read, and skip to the end: religious zealots fly planes into buildings.
But religious people aren’t just saying “God Bless You” when we sneeze. They are telling us how to vote, whether to wear masks, vaccinate our children, shun our neighbors, annihilate nations, and they are doing this on the basis of entirely unsupported, yet strongly held personal belief.
Ah, so your problems with religion are actually problems with specific religious practices. Its almost like you should just hate those practices instead of directing your anger at a very broad concept.
Your justification for distrusting all religious people is a small minority of Christians and Muslims. Grow up and treat people like people
Ah, so your problems with religion are actually problems with specific religious practices.
Where did you get that idea? I don’t believe that is a valid conclusion raising from my arguments.
It’s almost like you should just hate those practices instead of directing your anger at a very broad concept.
My “anger at a very broad concept” should have been a clue that those specific harmful practices I mentioned were exemplar, and not an exhaustive list. Further examples could be drawn from every organized religion, as well as from any and all individual “spiritual” beliefs.
No, my distrust of religious people is not based solely on those few examples of harm that I have presented, but on the underlying philosophical model, which could be characterized as a preference for hypothesization over experimentation. This is a “content of character” question, not a condemnation of specific religions.
which could be characterized as a preference for hypothesization over experimentation.
This is an oversimplification of religion. There is a difference between someone’s religious beliefs, and how they approach logic in a real world situation. A religious person does not just always make a hypothesis and assume it to be true no matter what. They are capable of being normal functioning human beings and differentiating from fact and fiction outside of their religion. If they aren’t capable of this, then I agree its a problem. But its not a problem with religion, its a problem with the person.
So your problem is that people are believing things you disagree with because it gives them a sense of fulfillment and community without harming anyone else. It could not possibly be more clear that you are the problem.
And no, it is not gaslighting to point out why you are wrong about something. That’s a ridiculous tactic to avoid the tiniest bit of self reflection.
I couldnt agree more. I have totally underestimated how nutty religious people truly are. I used to think Christians are good neighbours and boring law abiding citizens, but when push comes to shove and you really need them it turns out that they are just nutcases who are very adept at playing the good neighbour role. At least that has been my experience. I just can’t trust adults who believe in fairy tales anymore.
I totally get what you’re saying, but that’s not at all what religion is. If someone is listening to voices in their head, they’re not religious. They’re just crazy. I know many religious people who do not “listen to voices in their head” and it’s my belief that you’ve had terrible encounters and experiences with people claiming to be religious. But to generalize is not a good thing. I’ve met very sane religious people that do not do the things you say, I think it’s unfair of you to make such a sweeping claim that anyone who claims to be religious is immediately a crazy person to you. That idea itself sounds crazy to me
If someone is listening to voices in their head, they’re not religious. They’re just crazy.
I did not mean to claim religious people are “crazy.” What I described is “faith”, but without the virtuous connotations commonly ascribed to that concept.
Based on your comment, though, I would say I have accurately conveyed to you my state of mind upon hearing an individual proudly portray themselves as “religious” or “spiritual”. It is profoundly disturbing to hear someone readily admit a belief that their thoughts supersede reality.
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Religious people push their beliefs on people all the time, that’s what it is made to do so people can concentrate power. If a religious person has kids, you can guess how they are going to think. The whole idea is just complete bullshit and so stupid that anybody with a capacity to think critically knows it is false. Only people incapable of self reflection or thinking actually believe it.
That’s actually a little frightening, please refrain from making such blanket statements like this one. Surely a part of you must know this is wrong
I couldn’t agree more with the statement made. People who believe in fairy tales can’t be fully trusted.
Well, that’s very short-sighted and factually incorrect. I wish you meet more people and your outlook changes
I think it is somewhat hard to change my outlook at this point. My reasoning is that truly devout religious people have been infected with a mind virus. They may be nice people or pretend to be nice people, but there is also the mind virus, which is ultimately not trust worthy. In general, if hard decisions need to be made by a third party that potentially have a big impact on my life I’d not fully trust a religious person.
In daily life I am very friendly with a bunch of religious people, but I mistrust the religious part of them.
I don’t mind organized religion. What I do hate is that religion pushing their beliefs onto everyone they meet, pushing their religion beliefs throughout school systems, etc. If religious can keep to themselves, I see it like yoga or CrossFit.
A crossfit trainer, an ex-marine, and a born-again christian all walk into a bar.
We know that, because they won’t stop telling everyone.
I’m surprised this comment has lasted 6 hours without anyone saying “there’s no such thing as an ex-marine”
I, too, am disappointed by the lack of offended ex-marine comments.
why ?
Because SEMPER FI !!! OOORAH!!
Clearly, you haven’t met crossfitters
Clearly you don’t own an airfryer
Or an instapot!
Or an ARCH user.
No, but my wife wants us to :(
Don’t give in. Just get a good oven for everything and it’s the same
Obviously you’re not a golfer
Or a bidet
IDK about equalizing religion and yoga. At minimum, the yoga exercises seem pretty useful for getting a flexible and healthy body, and (judeo-christian) religous ceremonies are mostly just a reason for people to get together, which many other activities can do as well.
The positives that people get from religion are mostly about the feeling of being part of a community, with their own lore, rules, codex and ceremonies. Just like DnD groups, with the major difference that some members actually belief all of that stuff, which is spooky and dangerous, because that opens these people to all sorts of other crazy ideas.
If religious can keep to themselves
Since religions compete, that doesn’t sound feasible.
Although all religions are useless and shouldn’t have any privilege, only to be practiced in their own spaces, I am aware that not all religions compete in a proselytistic way. I understand that, for example, Judaism doesn’t proselytise and that “converting” to Judaism is even a long and difficult process, which makes me think it is like discouraging conversion, in some way, by making it so uphill.
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Pretty sure you can be born into judaism, though. Chances are, it is even the default scenario with even semi-religious parents.
That’s not “keeping to yourself” to me. That’s like passing the cigarettes to your kids.
Yeah, I agree, to a certain point. Most Jewish people I know, though, aren’t religious at all but for following certain traditions that don’t even include eating kosher food. Of course that doesn’t include orthodox Jews, but I don’t know any.
As for the training of it (“That’s not “keeping to yourself” to me. That’s like passing the cigarettes to your kids” and the “default scenario”), well, it’s the default upbringing in every family. Besides exceptions, conservative parents will raise conservative kids because that’s their growing environment, the same with more liberal ones, etc. That’s not proselytising, it’s a while different thing
That’s not proselytising, it’s a while different thing
I don’t see your point. How is brainwashing children ok when wololo-ing people is not? Even from an egocentric perspective, you have to live in a society.
I never said brainwashing children was ok as far as I can recall. Would you mind pointing at the part where I said so
itor even implied so?What I said is that that isn’t proselytising. It’s a different concept to raise your kids in a certain way and to go to others who already have a different faith (or none) and try to convince them to convert.
Of course, I know that everyone is born without any religion and by that account the limit is blurred, yet to raise a kid into one’s own faith and/or traditions is not the same as proselytising.
As for Judaism, I stand by what I said: it’s not proselytist in the way other religions are, trying to convert other people. I don’t judge it as bad or as good, I don’t care. I just state a fact as I’ve seen/read.
Edit: word
I never said brainwashing children was ok as far as I can recall.
Fair enough, you didn’t. I apologize. I lost track of the chain of posters and mixed you up with the first poster who didn’t seem to recognize the dangers of passing belief to children.
As for Judaism, I stand by what I said: it’s not proselytist in the way other religions are, trying to convert other people. I don’t judge it as bad or as good, I don’t care. I just state a fact as I’ve seen/read.
That may be case. Which is possibly why, historically speaking, Judaism doesn’t seem to be on the winning side. Which is bad, because it means opportunities for more fanatical, agressive religions.
I mind the normalization of magical thinking. It’s the same reason I bristle at astrology and tarot and luck charms.
Unfortunately you can’t have religion without people trying to evangelize. It’s part of the problem.
But… you can. It already exists
its like they dont realize that christianity isn’t the only religion in the world
Yeah, sort of funny. A good number of religions are hard to convert to (or don’t take converts). Partially because religion in human history has been a tool for a community to distinguish why they are better than outsiders. A lot of older religions died from this exclusivity.
That’s not correct. Where I live, religion is intertwined with daily life and yet nobody ever tried to talk me into anything
There’s a world of difference between “you should join my religion, we don’t eat fish” and “my religion says you can’t eat fish.”
Agreed
Atheism and science are also a type of religious belief. Ultimately, as long as someone isn’t hurting anyone else or trying to force their beliefs on others, I don’t care what they believe.
Could you expand your thoughts on this?
I’m always curious when this is said as to what is meant when Atheism and science are called religious.
“ThEy AlL rEqUiRe FaItH”
It’s a gross misunderstanding or intentional misrepresentation.
Yeah, that’s the standard line they give.
I find it’s usually intentional misrepresentation.
Sure. To be clear, I’m an engineer and an atheist so I don’t mean it to attack either Athiesm or science by any means.
To start with, we cannot get true knowledge of the world outside ourselves by sensory perception alone. Rather, the way we interpret our sensory inputs is by applying it to some metaphysical framework of how we believe the outside world works.
As a small example, Descartes famously brought up analogy of a melting candle. A totally naive person being born into existence would see melted wax and hardened wax as two different substances. Sensory perception alone would lie to this person. Only by interpreting it through this metaphysical framework do we come to the conclusion that melted wax and hardened wax are the same thing at different temperatures.
This extends to deeper concepts that we can’t directly explain by our experience alone. At some point we stop using our own direct experience and expand our metaphysical framework using something else.
The thing that springs from that “something else” is religion, and in many instances it doesn’t necessarily encompass a concept of divinity or worship. In abrahamic religions it is the Judeo-Christian god. In Daoism it’s the belief in the Dao, an unexplainable force tied to the events of the natural world. In science it’s belief in the scientific method’s ability to produce objective truth with sufficient cooperation and experimentation. They’re all models of the outside world that stem from something beyond a single individuals sensory perception.
Spiritual faith and faith in the scientific method are not the same.
Scientific knowledge is SUPPOSED to be challenged and changed as we gain new information. Religious faith is expected to be accepted without question and regardless of information.
Spiritual faith and faith in the scientific method are not the same.
They’re both belief systems pertaining to knowledge of the universe beyond your immediate perception
Scientific knowledge is SUPPOSED to be challenged and changed as we gain new information.
Of course. However, the central tenet of science doesn’t rely on scientific knowledge but the scientific method itself and it’s assumed power to find objective truth. Any questions about the viability of the scientific method to find objective truth tend to be aggressively rejected.
Religious faith is expected to be accepted without question and regardless of information.
This isn’t necessarily true. There are some religions that have no authoritative text, central authority, or official dogma; they encourage new perspectives in the nature of the universe. Daoism is one.
lmao
Atheism? Sure some New Atheist branches practice it like a faith
Science? It’s a tool for measuring things… it is about as much of a religion as a ruler
Science? It’s a tool for measuring things… it is about as much of a religion as a ruler
It’s not, it’s a system that seeks to understand our world at a deeper level and predict future events.
It’s funny you mention that, though, because it brings up one of the difficulties in science. Measurements we base our scientific theories on rely on instruments, most of which themselves rely on other theories for reliable operation and interpretation of data.
One philosopher of science famously brought up the analogy of a surveyor who doesn’t understand magnetism. He attempts to use a compass as a surveying tool near some hidden source of magnetic field. Without understanding of the underlying principles of magnetism and local magnetic field, he would assume the compass unfailingly points north and the resulting measurements of the local geography would be wrong. Those flawed measurements might then be used by geologists, leading to the development of theories supported by flawed data.
There is always a degree of uncertainty in the instruments we use to develop and test our hypotheses because there is no such thing as certain knowledge in science. However, at some point we simply put faith in the scientific method and presume that our underlying theories are sufficiently accurate for our purposes and proceed accordingly.
Your surveyor story sounds like something a christian apologist would say, or someone who doesn’t know the difference between science and religion.
Even stone age people knew the difference between East and West. If a surveyor incorrectly used a compass his work could still be verified by looking at a goddamn sunrise. If the surveyor ignored the conflicting data and, as you say “put his faith in his instruments”, it ceases to be the scientific method and becomes dogmatic fanaticism.
Do you not understand what a thought experiment is? It’s an exaggerated example to better illustrate a concept, in this case the concept that reliable calibration and use of instruments is itself based on some underlying theory of operation.
Even stone age people knew the difference between East and West. If a surveyor incorrectly used a compass his work could still be verified by looking at a goddamn sunrise. If the surveyor ignored the conflicting data and, as you say “put his faith in his instruments”, it ceases to be the scientific method and becomes dogmatic fanaticism.
If it helps you understand the concept, imagine that the source of error is very weak, only disturbing the compass by a few degrees at any given location.
Doubt
“Never do business with a religious son-of-a-bitch. His word ain’t worth a shit – not with the Good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”
― William S. Burroughs
When your congregation are loud bigots, racists, and assholes, or when your clergy fuck kids and cover it up, or when the religion as a whole surpresses or hates certain genders or sexualities… This is not a surprising trend at all to anyone reasonable.
I really cant wrap my head that religion still exist in this age. Like we have mass destruction weapons, rockets that go beyond earth, have proof of how vast the universe is and then what we fight over is how some God has dictated our life to be.
It’s so dumb and pretentious. Like nobody knows why we’re here, if there is a creator or not, what happens when we die, etc. Religious people act like they really have the answers to these when they are so comically wrong and fooled by people pulling stuff out of their ass.
Then, on top of that, to deny all of the things we have actually figured out about our universe and our place in it, the things we have actually observed. It’s a plague on humanity, stifling our progress.
Yes. Exactly 💯.
If the god was so powerful, where was he during CoVID? Why didnt the holy water treat COVID?
“GoD aCtS iN mIsTiRiOuS wAyS”
aka: Sky daddy doesn’t exist.
The only purpose religion serves is copium for people who can’t face reality/don’t want to think, and exploitation of power. If God existed and gave a shit, it would be clear, but it’s so obviously man-made to anyone who wasn’t brainwashed to be religious.
Every time I think about the fact that the belief that a dead body came back to life, floated up into the sky, and is expected to float back down at the end of the world isn’t considered to be a psychotic delusion because it’s so commonplace as to be normative I feel like I’m on crazy pills.
How?
How the heck do we live in an age of measuring how long it takes for light to cross a hydrogen atom, of seeing the complete observable universe, of building our own virtual universes - and yet intelligent people who are aware of or even involved in such efforts genuinely think magic is real?
I get that there’s a lot of people who just don’t have a good grasp on reality and think lizards running world governments is somehow a probable explanation for the state of things, but the part that destroys a bit of my soul is seeing people who clearly should know better but don’t.
How are we supposed to collectively solve real problems when so many are unwilling to come face to face with what is actually real?
Yup. Like how we tell kids there are no ghosts, we should tell me there is no God.
Well, at very least “there’s no objective evidence for either ghosts or God.”
100%.
I have that same problem with meat eaters too. How is it possible that we know we are brutally mass breeding and killing animals for food we don’t need, is fucking up the planet and isn’t all that healthy either, while at the same time also pretending to be civilized human beings that care about animals and the climare. And every time I raise the issue people make the dumbest excuses I have heard a thousand times…
People, once brainwashed into a way of thinking and behaving, can just be really hard to change even if you have all the arguments on your side.
I have the same problem with monarchy. The only thing that disturbs me more than the existence of royals with their archaic rituals and inbred lines of succession is the fact that there are so many people who love that shit.
Monarchies are also deeply intertwined with religion, which makes it extra problematic.
I read a really interesting book called How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion, and the author made some very interesting points.
It takes a seismic change in perspectives to change closely-held beliefs that are intertwined with our identities. I grew up as a devout Christian in an extremely conservative protestent young-earth-creationist denomination. I spent my Sundays and Wednesdays listening to the values preached from the pulpit: love, humility, repentance, understanding, protecting the vulnerable, meekness, charity, and unconditional love.
However, these same people when outside of church would spew tirades about “the gays”, how poor people are just lazy, and how prayer wasn’t allowed in school anymore. The love that was exalted above all other values on Sunday was just a platitude to give cover to hateful grievance.
And that was almost thirty years ago; they’ve only gotten worse. That’s why people are abandoning religion in droves. The values that they sell are not aligned with the actual values of their congregants. Like the old Jim Croce song, their philosophy is “Let him live in freedom - if he lives like me.”
Furthermore, losing one’s religion nowadays is not the social exile it once was. People have support structures outside of organized religion. It’s one of the reasons that Evangelical churches are so against a social safety net: it keeps the excommunicated from crawling back.
People have support structures outside of organized religion.
I agree with you overall, but do not agree with this point. There are very few non-commercial support structures in America for adults outside of organized religion, and even some of them (e.g. AA) are somewhat religious in nature.
I think they meant outside friends and family
Growing up in a super religious family and watching all the nonsense up close is why I’m an atheist today. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MOTHERFUCKERS
Hail Satan and donate to your local Satanic temple
Also grew up in a super religious family (homeschooled pk) and joined TST 4 years ago.
IMO brainwashing children from the time they’re born into a religion that spreads hate is wrong.
Religion is cancer.
