• Pons_Aelius@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Can you give one example of a long-term, large scale, non-hierarchical system in human society?

    • rockSlayer@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Anarchism. We used it for most of human history, hierarchical societies are only 6k years old. The human species has existed for 200k years.

        • rockSlayer@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Yes, because everyone everywhere for all of history has followed the exact same formula for organizing and defending their tribes.

      • Pons_Aelius@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Anarchism. We used it for most of human history

        Total horseshit.

        Name one society based on Anarchism

            • rockSlayer@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Examples of intentional anarchical societies don’t meet the criteria of anarchical societies?

              • SCB@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                This was the actual original request

                Can you give one example of a long-term, large scale, non-hierarchical system in human society?

                Nothing on that page is an example of this

                • rockSlayer@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I spent 5 seconds during my morning routine to look this up. Would you rather I spend 3 hours writing a dissertation on all of the indigenous communities that have existed since prehistory that are structured in an egalitarian and anarchical way? You’re also allowed to look this shit up. I recommend Andrewism on youtube, he pulls a lot of examples from anarchical indigenous societies

                  • SCB@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    I’d rather you not post dumb pro-anarchy takes. That requires 0 seconds out of your day.

          • Pons_Aelius@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            And where are they today?

            Can you give one example of a long-term, large scale, non-hierarchical system in human society?

            • kenopsik@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Long-term =/= Permanent

              Humans have existed much, MUCH longer than our current structure of civilization.

            • pinkdrunkenelephants
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              1 year ago

              Polynesians strike me as a good example. Those motherfuckers were the first to sail around the world, thousands of years before Columbus.

      • seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        Anarchism. We used it for most of human history

        Tribes are not anarchies. They have leaders. Put any group of people together and a hierarchy naturally forms. You actually have to work really, really hard to prevent this. That’s why anarchies are so unstable and rarely last longer than a few years.

      • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Yeah, I like having electricity, plumbing, and not needing to murder other males to protect my harem too much. We need some sort of society, not the absence of one.

        • rockSlayer@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Anarchy is the lack of heirarchy, not the lack of society. Please educate yourself before making an ignorant comment like this.

          • Bytemeister@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            an·ar·chy /ˈanərkē/ noun

            -a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority or other controlling systems. -the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.

            Educated enough? Everybody gonna cooperate and no one is going to go Mad-Max robber Baron on essential resources? Everyone going to voluntarily decide to fix potholes and collect garbage?

      • blackn1ght@feddit.uk
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        1 year ago

        But we evolved away from it as our societies and needs became more complex. Maybe it worked when we were hunter gatherers living in caves but modern society requires a heriarchy to organise and maintain it.

          • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            About all the facets of modern life? Yes. At least, completely informed decisions.

            I don’t know much about West Nile Virus. If I get West Nile, I need to consult an expert.

            Who decides who’s an expert? Why should I trust what Jane says and not what Steve says?

          • blackn1ght@feddit.uk
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            1 year ago

            To organise and manage. Who’s going to set and control healthcare? The economy? Utilities? Infrastructure? Defence?Education? Justice? Social care? I don’t have the time nor will to make informed decisions about every single policy or law. I’d imagine the vast majority of people are ere same. We have representatives to make these decisions for us.

            • rockSlayer@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              All of those “problems” are predicated on the ideas that private ownership of the means of production is necessary, that borders are a natural phenomenon, and that the social ills under capitalism are facts of life experienced by everyone in every era. None of that is true. Why don’t you have the time or energy to help organize and be involved with your community? Is it because of work? We’ve made tremendous strides in automating the means of production, but what has that meant for us? More people unemployed and unable to pay for the necessities in life, while we maintain the 40 hour work week to do the same work in one day as a 100 hour work week in 1900. We don’t need to move at this breakneck pace to make someone else billions of dollars.

              • seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org
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                1 year ago

                I agree that common people need to do more organizing, but all that organizing will be a waste of time without a hierarchy. I’ve seen it happen loads of times. You get a bunch of people together with a lot of passion, but nobody can decide on an agenda or a plan, and all of that energy evaporates and nothing gets accomplished.

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Occupy Wall Street

                  The cops, media, and oligarchs were organized. The protesters, though numerous, were not.

              • blackn1ght@feddit.uk
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                1 year ago

                I don’t think any of the things I listed have anything to do with who owns the means of production. They’re all public (well maybe not in every country) services. And policy and regulation has to be set for them as time goes on.

                Honestly, I don’t want to be much involved in my community. It just doesn’t interest me, I’d rather spend time with my family or spend time on my hobbies.

                • rockSlayer@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I disagree on that, but I don’t have the mental health capacity anymore to elaborate.

                  That’s understandable too, and we should have the ability to do so without a pursuit of wages. The coercive nature of work prevents you from enjoying the things you want to enjoy. Personally, I consider the theft of our free time cruelty. I want to have time to see my friends and family that live hours away. I want to work on the apps I started in college. I want to go fishing. I want to be a contributing member of my community. I can’t do any of that, because I need to pay for food, rent, electricity, vehicle maintenance, my education loan, and more. A system that forces us to suppress our desires in favor of seeking a wage is unjust, and does far more harm to people as a society than anything an individual could do on their own. I don’t want to turn those personal apps into a “side-hustle”, I just want to make something in the hopes that at least someone finds it useful and can enjoy it. I want a society that encourages our kindhearted, social, and generous nature, not one that purely emphasizes our greedy side.

        • novibe@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Many complex societies were egalitarian eg Cucatenia Trypillia, IVC etc.

          We didn’t “evolve” away from egalitarianism because complexity yada yada yada. Hierarchy just won because it’s more oppressive and violent.

          • seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org
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            1 year ago

            Hierarchy just won because it’s more oppressive and violent.

            Let’s say you’re right. How can anarchy win, then?

            • novibe@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              So… an evil system that puts the majority of people on the bottom to be exploited is ok because it’s more violent and kills all other systems?

              I’m not a tactician, or strategist.

              I don’t care how it can win. It has to, or we all will die lmao.