Apparently the EU passed a bill that would require companies to have batteries that could be replaced with no specialized tools and that “the process of replacement shall be able to be carried out by a layman”. With a 2027 deadline
Well its not likely that the big phone brands will make specific models for just the EU because of how much extra that would cost. Like whats happening now with the USB C laws.
This is only a thing in the US. In other parts of the world, iphone users have to adapt to whatever messenger platform has the most people in it (likely whatsapp or facebook messenger, maybe telegram)
It’s not the blue bubble, it’s that iMessage is like any other of the big message services and has it’s own things like those messaging services. I have a group chat with another iPhone user, and an Android user. Just sending texts is whatever, but when you start using the messaging features like tapbacks to like a message or replying to a specific message, it gets real fucky real fast.
Although I am glad iMessage was created (largely as a fuck you to carrier fees) these days I wish that Apple would either make an Android app or the world (US mostly) could collectively move to a good messaging app/protocol (which includes e2e encryption and isn’t fucking Meta.)
Not yet but one day. If I could get a phone and keep it for 20 years (with repairs/upgraded parts) then I’d switch.
If apple removes the plug then i’ll start considering the other options when my current phone becomes unusable. Until then it’s too easy to buy an old iphone and hold onto it for 6 years.
This is the one I’m thinking of. Love the concept. Potential challenge is that in Canada things, in particular, shipping is expensive. I’m pretty broke right now so my inclination is to save money over the long run and not be wasteful.
I’m not a phone person though. Useful device but not something that takes up much of my day to day time.
It’s worth noting that the current lightning cable is also limited to usb 2.0 speeds. They’re not making the usb c version any slower than it already is.
Right, but I assume what it means is that any Apple charging cable will be generally useless as a USBC cable for anything other than charging an iPhone, which very much violates the spirit of the EU anti-waste law.
For most people, it won’t matter. But a USBC cable which can’t support USB3 data rates probably also won’t support proper USB-PD, or USB-HDMI/DP, etc. The dream of having one universal physical standard for charging and high data rate comms will be violated in principle, even if it makes little difference in practice.
USB C is already a mess, and plenty of Android devices don’t support USB 3.0 speeds either. Apple changing to USB C port changes nothing except for the literal receptacle.
I honestly feel like it’s a mistake that USB-C means almost nothing outside of “it’s got this port shape.” The idea was that you have one port and one cable, and you plug whatever you want into it. In practice, virtually no where is this true. Is this a data port or power only? What speed for either? Does the port support Thunderbolt or no? Video or no? Does the cable support data or just power? What speed? Video? Which HDMI spec? Thunderbolt? Grab 3 random devices with USB-C and 3 random USB-C cables and see how often you get the intended outcome.
Tbh I think the only goal that USB-C really accomplishes is that it’s less shitty than micro-usb (might as well make all of those ports/connectors out of paper mache) or USB-A (let’s make a port shape that there is no way for anyone living or dead to plug in correctly the first time.)
Nearly every USB-A male I’ve seen has a USB logo carved into the rubber boot.
This is on the “up” side of the cable, and would face “up” from the perspective of how the computer is intended to be used (or from the perspective of the motherboard, if we’re talking about a tower PC).
Why assume the cable would have low speeds? Are those enough cheaper to justify that?
I mean, it would be a trademark Apple kind of thing to do, for sure. They may take privacy seriously, but literally every other thing they do is pure scumbag.
I don’t wanna assume they are 3.0 speed either, but do we know one way or the other?
Also, is there really a use for 240W cords? I’ve never heard of a phone accepting triple digit speeds at all, and even a tablet wouldn’t go that high.
Legislating that everything shall be a $50 20Gbps cable stuffed with impedance matched micro-coax and shielding on top of shielding on top of shielding just means that nobody can afford it.
USB-C is not and will never this thing that you are imagining. It is one commonly shaped hole, with all the incompatible connections of yesteryear now lurking in a mess of unreadable symbols next to each port. This one can charge. That one can thunderbolt. These can send out power, if you want to use your laptop as a $2000 portable battery. This one sends out video, but wait it’s only HDMI, and only if that port over there isn’t using its superspeed lanes.
Being able to record raw 4k60 video means huge file sizes. Transferring over what we hope will be usb3 speeds would be much faster than any other available medium to iPhone.
This is the amazingly, insanely stupid thing about the idea that at least for Apple’s Pro line, which they’ll painstakingly put together videos showing iPhones being used as actual movie cameras in big gimbal rigs and how they can capture 4k60 and put messages in the OS that shooting 20 minutes of video is going to take your entire phone storage even if you got the big one, and the options for transfer are wifi or USB 2.0. For a potential terabyte. Very Pro to sit and wait for an hour or several.
Sure. It’s a super fast and easy way to transfer videos, music and images. You can also back up your phone using the cable. I used to use my for USB tethering to get around hotspot charges. It’s also handy for loading projects for development.
Thanks. Tho does surprise me to hear that backups to the computer is still a thing people do on any sort of scale. Dev projects tho, that def makes sense
My partner actually just backed up their iPhone today using a cable. They don’t want to pay the extra storage fees for iCloud, and they like having control of their own data.
Android is superior and I’ll die on this hill. Want a phone built nicer than an iPhone? Here you go. Want a cheap phone because your on a budget or it’s not important to you? Here you go. Want an operating system you can configure to your liking, or even install your own version of it? Here you go. Want a headphone jack? Here you go.
Samsung has already surpassed apple in hardware. We’re at the point where equivalent Samsung’s multi-core performance is the same, the 25% faster iGPU carries the single-core performance way beyond what the iPhone can do, and they ship with 25%+ more RAM.
I’m hoping more people start to realize that healthy market competition is a good thing for Apple, it has already changed many of their anti-consumer practices in the past.
I can still buy an Android phone with an aux input I think I’ll still be able to buy a phone with a USB port. Android is about options. But nice hypothetical, it really brought a lot to the table.
Ok, they will have cables, but “Android is about options”, yet it’s hard to find a phone that does not have a rounded screen, a notch, or a screen embedded camera.
Honestly I’m using a 7 year old phone and I’ve almost given up on finding a new one with sensible hardware. In the last years android really became much closer to iphones, and not to their advantage in my eyes.
Without fail around 1.5 years the battery was almost useless and the usability would slow to a grind and it would get super warm. I had to upgrade often.
Eventually decided to try iPhone. I’m on a 12 pro that I got at launch still. Never used a case or screen protector. Dropped more times than I can count. I’ve even been swimming with it several times by accident. (Twice over an hour before realizing)
Battery life is greater than 80% of its launch life still. The phone still fucking works great, I have zero issues with it. I have saved money by using iPhone because I’m not replacing it all the time.
I LOVE Android for its flexibility and freedom of choice etc. those things can’t be taken away from that platform. But a phone that’s built like a brick shit house that just fucking works? I found that in an iPhone.
Exactly. It’s the same for virtually anything code-related; more flexibility equals more bugs. Yes, i phone goes a little overboard sometimes, but there phones aren’t just some status symbol. An android is a fine option, it just doesn’t meet some people’s needs. It’s like when people try to suggest windows or linux to me. I use each of them frequently, you know what I find the most buggy? Windows. You know what needs the most configuration? Linux. The Mac just works. “But Google can fix the issue” I know it can. I never said it couldn’t. I just like being able to turn on my device and have it work after I’ve fixed bugs all day
Samsung and pixels have been doing 3-4 years of updates for a while now, and pixels are moving to 5 years with the 8 series coming out in a couple months.
It’s not really about the tiny amount for an individual, it’s a problem when multiplied by the millions upon millions of iPhone users, and because they steer the market, the millions and millions of Android users that will follow.
Wireless charging would be a catastrophe at that scale. It is terribly inefficient; multiplied by the number of iPhones in circulation, and we would have gigantic amounts of energy wasted because Apple didn’t want to bend to a non-proprietary port. We already live in a world where the energy is an issue and the EU USB-C law is precisely aimed at reducing waste, it would be a horrendous decision on a disastrous scale, especially as other phone makers would quickly follow.
Most desktops don’t have WiFi cards + it does add more latency to WiFi hotspot. Say your internet died at home and you still want to play games or work in vdi
I don’t do it often either, but it came in clutch this week when I re-installed Linux Mint and needed to download the drivers for my wifi card via tethering.
Apple uses the standard USB-PD standard for all existing wired USB-C charging, uses the QI standard for wireless, and directly contributed their magsafe technology to the next generation of the QI wireless standard, so there’s no reason to think they will make iPhone wireless charging proprietary.
Furthermore, they’ll be shooting themselves in the foot. The EU is already curtailing wireless charging lock-in, by mandating Qi charging support. A tailor-made solution might have a higher speed, but as technologies improve, the “harmonised interoperability” will be bumped up by the EU parliament.
Lastly, this legislation doesn’t seem aimed at just the EU. My legalese isn’t all that great, but it seems they’re highly encouraging members of the EEA (non-EU) to adopt similar legislation too.
Multiplying every phone in use by the average capacity loss at 50% that’s the best case scenario for loss ( ignoring the newer phones using significantly more power and glass to insulate). You do not have a statistically dust number of wasted carbon every day.
Let’s say everyone in the world has a smartphone and charges it 100% every day. Let’s say that it’s 4000 mah battery so they waste 2000 mah. This is very very generous. That’s 7.4 wh per person per day X 8b people X 365 days a year = 2.1x10^13 wh. In 2022 we used 1.7x10^17. Or 0.01% Like I said, statistical dust.
The energy consumption of replacing a worn out cable is pretty bad too.
The energy consumption of replacing a whole phone when the port wears out is considerably worse.
Oh and as a bonus, the wireless charger provides unbeatable isolation from lightning strikes or a defective power brick shorting to mains. I can’t say how many phones are saved that way, but it’s also something of an energy savings.
“Worn out cable…. Ect ect fallacy about power loss.”
Nice straw man argument, you are really reaching. Not only will it never happen to get close to the wireless waste but we are talking about Brand new future device.
I abuse my charging port with headphones, 5 years not replaced. This still would not come close to the loss.
it’s at least 50% power loss over wireless. At minimum.
I’m not talking about “resistance change in a cord blah blah”. I’m talking about the power and resources to manufacture and ship a new phone, after your old phone fails prematurely. The kilowatt-hours being poured into a phone’s battery over its service life are a miniscule part of its TCO. Doubling that makes it two pittances.
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Just stop buying iPhones, problem solved.
until all the others start to copycat them, as always, simply because they can get away with it
would love to have removable batteries again
Apparently the EU passed a bill that would require companies to have batteries that could be replaced with no specialized tools and that “the process of replacement shall be able to be carried out by a layman”. With a 2027 deadline
Yes please, I hate how hard it currently is
I’m aware, but i’m not in the EU nor can I expect govmts around the world to legialate away evey little anti-consumer idea those people have.
Well its not likely that the big phone brands will make specific models for just the EU because of how much extra that would cost. Like whats happening now with the USB C laws.
But then how will people know I am willing to blow money, implying that I have extra cash to waste, if they don’t see a blue bubble?
I have heard people at my school criticizing Android for “green text messages”
I’m 39 and not even so old I use native messaging and telephony styled services. Hell, not even my dad does.
Did the kids in your school grow up in the 80s or is stuff like iMessage making a comeback because it’s retrocool?
Kids think iPhones are cool for a good reason. If a fifth grade kid has an android, it’s probably a cheap one. There are no cheap iPhones.
Sure, Pixels are better than iPhones straight up. But who the fuck is buying their kid the latest Pixel?
So cool (read: spoiled) kids have iPhones. The others start on cheap androids. That stigma sticks around at least awhile.
This is only a thing in the US. In other parts of the world, iphone users have to adapt to whatever messenger platform has the most people in it (likely whatsapp or facebook messenger, maybe telegram)
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If you get ostracized from a group for the wrong chat bubble color, that group wasn’t worth your time.
This 100%
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That’s fine. I don’t want to be friends with someone that would ostracize me for the green bubble.
Btw whats the matter of blue bubble? iMessage? Who tf uses imessage especially on android? Or is it just an sms app?
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Ironically you can use it on android using an app called…wait for it….BlueBubbles. -Source: me using it right now.
Bluebubbles requires you have a Mac or Hackintosh
Yes, there are hoops, but it works.
It’s not the blue bubble, it’s that iMessage is like any other of the big message services and has it’s own things like those messaging services. I have a group chat with another iPhone user, and an Android user. Just sending texts is whatever, but when you start using the messaging features like tapbacks to like a message or replying to a specific message, it gets real fucky real fast.
Although I am glad iMessage was created (largely as a fuck you to carrier fees) these days I wish that Apple would either make an Android app or the world (US mostly) could collectively move to a good messaging app/protocol (which includes e2e encryption and isn’t fucking Meta.)
That sounds like good messaging apps doesn’t exist… Have you ever tried telegram?
Not yet but one day. If I could get a phone and keep it for 20 years (with repairs/upgraded parts) then I’d switch.
If apple removes the plug then i’ll start considering the other options when my current phone becomes unusable. Until then it’s too easy to buy an old iphone and hold onto it for 6 years.
fairphone 5 is out :-) it is getting upgrades until the 2030s. and it is so easily repairable that it is realistic to use it for a long time
This is the one I’m thinking of. Love the concept. Potential challenge is that in Canada things, in particular, shipping is expensive. I’m pretty broke right now so my inclination is to save money over the long run and not be wasteful.
I’m not a phone person though. Useful device but not something that takes up much of my day to day time.
I am sincerely hoping that makes it to the US. The only thing available now is the Fair Phone 4.
It’s worth noting that the current lightning cable is also limited to usb 2.0 speeds. They’re not making the usb c version any slower than it already is.
Right, but I assume what it means is that any Apple charging cable will be generally useless as a USBC cable for anything other than charging an iPhone, which very much violates the spirit of the EU anti-waste law.
For most people, it won’t matter. But a USBC cable which can’t support USB3 data rates probably also won’t support proper USB-PD, or USB-HDMI/DP, etc. The dream of having one universal physical standard for charging and high data rate comms will be violated in principle, even if it makes little difference in practice.
The iPhone already doesn’t support USB 3.0 speeds, or video out from the port so nothing would be lost.
And the data rate of the cable has no impact on it’s power delivery capability. I have USB 2.0 speed cables capable of doing 240 watts. Plus the iPhone already does USB PD, just through the lightning port. https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/12152bd5-5977-4cf3-9dd5-c302ca78462b.jpeg
USB C is already a mess, and plenty of Android devices don’t support USB 3.0 speeds either. Apple changing to USB C port changes nothing except for the literal receptacle.
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I honestly feel like it’s a mistake that USB-C means almost nothing outside of “it’s got this port shape.” The idea was that you have one port and one cable, and you plug whatever you want into it. In practice, virtually no where is this true. Is this a data port or power only? What speed for either? Does the port support Thunderbolt or no? Video or no? Does the cable support data or just power? What speed? Video? Which HDMI spec? Thunderbolt? Grab 3 random devices with USB-C and 3 random USB-C cables and see how often you get the intended outcome.
Tbh I think the only goal that USB-C really accomplishes is that it’s less shitty than micro-usb (might as well make all of those ports/connectors out of paper mache) or USB-A (let’s make a port shape that there is no way for anyone living or dead to plug in correctly the first time.)
Nearly every USB-A male I’ve seen has a USB logo carved into the rubber boot.
This is on the “up” side of the cable, and would face “up” from the perspective of how the computer is intended to be used (or from the perspective of the motherboard, if we’re talking about a tower PC).
Why assume the cable would have low speeds? Are those enough cheaper to justify that?
I mean, it would be a trademark Apple kind of thing to do, for sure. They may take privacy seriously, but literally every other thing they do is pure scumbag.
I don’t wanna assume they are 3.0 speed either, but do we know one way or the other?
Also, is there really a use for 240W cords? I’ve never heard of a phone accepting triple digit speeds at all, and even a tablet wouldn’t go that high.
Legislating that everything shall be a $50 20Gbps cable stuffed with impedance matched micro-coax and shielding on top of shielding on top of shielding just means that nobody can afford it.
USB-C is not and will never this thing that you are imagining. It is one commonly shaped hole, with all the incompatible connections of yesteryear now lurking in a mess of unreadable symbols next to each port. This one can charge. That one can thunderbolt. These can send out power, if you want to use your laptop as a $2000 portable battery. This one sends out video, but wait it’s only HDMI, and only if that port over there isn’t using its superspeed lanes.
At that speed their ‘lightning’ cable doesnt sound all to lightening-ey then, more of a mild static.
People are transferring data to their phones via a cable?
Yes
Why? (Genuine question)
Being able to record raw 4k60 video means huge file sizes. Transferring over what we hope will be usb3 speeds would be much faster than any other available medium to iPhone.
This is the amazingly, insanely stupid thing about the idea that at least for Apple’s Pro line, which they’ll painstakingly put together videos showing iPhones being used as actual movie cameras in big gimbal rigs and how they can capture 4k60 and put messages in the OS that shooting 20 minutes of video is going to take your entire phone storage even if you got the big one, and the options for transfer are wifi or USB 2.0. For a potential terabyte. Very Pro to sit and wait for an hour or several.
Sure. It’s a super fast and easy way to transfer videos, music and images. You can also back up your phone using the cable. I used to use my for USB tethering to get around hotspot charges. It’s also handy for loading projects for development.
Thanks. Tho does surprise me to hear that backups to the computer is still a thing people do on any sort of scale. Dev projects tho, that def makes sense
My partner actually just backed up their iPhone today using a cable. They don’t want to pay the extra storage fees for iCloud, and they like having control of their own data.
That’s usually the only way that backups will work.
Not just expensive, they’re also environmentally unsound! They use more power to charge, more plastic for casing. Hooray?
Android is superior and I’ll die on this hill. Want a phone built nicer than an iPhone? Here you go. Want a cheap phone because your on a budget or it’s not important to you? Here you go. Want an operating system you can configure to your liking, or even install your own version of it? Here you go. Want a headphone jack? Here you go.
We’ll die on this hill together.
Make some room; I’m camping on the hill with you.
Samsung has already surpassed apple in hardware. We’re at the point where equivalent Samsung’s multi-core performance is the same, the 25% faster iGPU carries the single-core performance way beyond what the iPhone can do, and they ship with 25%+ more RAM.
I’m hoping more people start to realize that healthy market competition is a good thing for Apple, it has already changed many of their anti-consumer practices in the past.
Guess which one of those gets foisted onto grade school kids.
Just wait until android phone brands also remove all physical connectors
I can still buy an Android phone with an aux input I think I’ll still be able to buy a phone with a USB port. Android is about options. But nice hypothetical, it really brought a lot to the table.
Ok, they will have cables, but “Android is about options”, yet it’s hard to find a phone that does not have a rounded screen, a notch, or a screen embedded camera.
Honestly I’m using a 7 year old phone and I’ve almost given up on finding a new one with sensible hardware. In the last years android really became much closer to iphones, and not to their advantage in my eyes.
I was on Android for years. Galaxy’s and Pixels
Without fail around 1.5 years the battery was almost useless and the usability would slow to a grind and it would get super warm. I had to upgrade often.
Eventually decided to try iPhone. I’m on a 12 pro that I got at launch still. Never used a case or screen protector. Dropped more times than I can count. I’ve even been swimming with it several times by accident. (Twice over an hour before realizing)
Battery life is greater than 80% of its launch life still. The phone still fucking works great, I have zero issues with it. I have saved money by using iPhone because I’m not replacing it all the time.
I LOVE Android for its flexibility and freedom of choice etc. those things can’t be taken away from that platform. But a phone that’s built like a brick shit house that just fucking works? I found that in an iPhone.
Exactly. It’s the same for virtually anything code-related; more flexibility equals more bugs. Yes, i phone goes a little overboard sometimes, but there phones aren’t just some status symbol. An android is a fine option, it just doesn’t meet some people’s needs. It’s like when people try to suggest windows or linux to me. I use each of them frequently, you know what I find the most buggy? Windows. You know what needs the most configuration? Linux. The Mac just works. “But Google can fix the issue” I know it can. I never said it couldn’t. I just like being able to turn on my device and have it work after I’ve fixed bugs all day
“Just want a phone that works and does everything you need without thinking about it with support past two years?..…we, uh, I’ll get back to you…,”
Samsung and pixels have been doing 3-4 years of updates for a while now, and pixels are moving to 5 years with the 8 series coming out in a couple months.
“For a while now” = Since Feb 2022.
But yeah, that’s awesome they finally decided to support their devices!
And Google? Well, thankfully they don’t have a track record of abandoning things, so I’d totally trust them.
IPhones are cool and all, but I’m a fan of usable file management.
I actually use both, so I kid a lot but ultimately a phone is a phone. I find it funny when people take it personally.
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It’s a drop in the bucket really. You know who has decided not to use a wireless charger in order to save money on their electric bill… Nobody.
It’s not really about the tiny amount for an individual, it’s a problem when multiplied by the millions upon millions of iPhone users, and because they steer the market, the millions and millions of Android users that will follow.
Wireless charging would be a catastrophe at that scale. It is terribly inefficient; multiplied by the number of iPhones in circulation, and we would have gigantic amounts of energy wasted because Apple didn’t want to bend to a non-proprietary port. We already live in a world where the energy is an issue and the EU USB-C law is precisely aimed at reducing waste, it would be a horrendous decision on a disastrous scale, especially as other phone makers would quickly follow.
EU has already warned them not to throttle charging and transfer speeds just because a cable isn’t MFI
I don’t know about you, but I don’t honestly remember the last time I connected my phone to my computer to transfer data
Good for you! I do it at least 3 times a week
Same. Having a 10Gb/s data link from my phone comes in handy pretty fucking often.
Mind if I ask why?
Privately transferring large porn files?
I connected my phone to tether internet since the power was out but the cell network was still going.
iPhones can tether via a wifi connection, so that’s not necessary. Does drain the battery a bit faster, though.
Most desktops don’t have WiFi cards + it does add more latency to WiFi hotspot. Say your internet died at home and you still want to play games or work in vdi
iPhone can share it over Bluetooth too, if it helps.
Android can as well.
I wasn’t sure so I didn’t want to say, thanks for the information.
All smartphones I’ve had since around 2013 could do that. Is Wifi Hotspot still locked behind an ISP paywall exclusively on iPhone?
Nope. That’s kinda my point though. You don’t NEED to tether.
I don’t do it often either, but it came in clutch this week when I re-installed Linux Mint and needed to download the drivers for my wifi card via tethering.
Apple uses the standard USB-PD standard for all existing wired USB-C charging, uses the QI standard for wireless, and directly contributed their magsafe technology to the next generation of the QI wireless standard, so there’s no reason to think they will make iPhone wireless charging proprietary.
Furthermore, they’ll be shooting themselves in the foot. The EU is already curtailing wireless charging lock-in, by mandating Qi charging support. A tailor-made solution might have a higher speed, but as technologies improve, the “harmonised interoperability” will be bumped up by the EU parliament.
Lastly, this legislation doesn’t seem aimed at just the EU. My legalese isn’t all that great, but it seems they’re highly encouraging members of the EEA (non-EU) to adopt similar legislation too.
Source: europa.eu
Source?
Wireless charging should be regulated. It’s a wasteful joke that burns more carbon by wasting electricity
The amount of electricity used to charge phones is statistical dust. If you want to save electricity there are 1000 better places to worry about.
Yep, definitely. A bigger problem is the additional heat generated, especially if the phone is also being used at the same time.
Multiplying every phone in use by the average capacity loss at 50% that’s the best case scenario for loss ( ignoring the newer phones using significantly more power and glass to insulate). You do not have a statistically dust number of wasted carbon every day.
Let’s say everyone in the world has a smartphone and charges it 100% every day. Let’s say that it’s 4000 mah battery so they waste 2000 mah. This is very very generous. That’s 7.4 wh per person per day X 8b people X 365 days a year = 2.1x10^13 wh. In 2022 we used 1.7x10^17. Or 0.01% Like I said, statistical dust.
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The energy consumption of replacing a worn out cable is pretty bad too.
The energy consumption of replacing a whole phone when the port wears out is considerably worse.
Oh and as a bonus, the wireless charger provides unbeatable isolation from lightning strikes or a defective power brick shorting to mains. I can’t say how many phones are saved that way, but it’s also something of an energy savings.
Delusion is strong in this one.
“Worn out cable…. Ect ect fallacy about power loss.”
Nice straw man argument, you are really reaching. Not only will it never happen to get close to the wireless waste but we are talking about Brand new future device.
I abuse my charging port with headphones, 5 years not replaced. This still would not come close to the loss.
it’s at least 50% power loss over wireless. At minimum.
https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-08-09/wireless-charging-a-colossal-waste-of-energy/
I’m not talking about “resistance change in a cord blah blah”. I’m talking about the power and resources to manufacture and ship a new phone, after your old phone fails prematurely. The kilowatt-hours being poured into a phone’s battery over its service life are a miniscule part of its TCO. Doubling that makes it two pittances.