I am asking here because all the political subs don’t allow a question, and US politics used to seemed so simple until to understand this man came along.
Because this needs to be done 1000% right, there is no margin for error, everything has to be done in an iron clad manner that cannot be dismantled by half-assing it. Indicting a former president is a first in the history of this country, and this former president is nothing short of a cult leader with millions of unshakable followers, many of whom are armed to the teeth and ready to burn this country to the ground for him. So this has to be done very friggin carefully.
Like Mueller half-assed it and the end result was nearly a fucking coup. Can’t let that happen again.
Mueller didn’t half ass anything. He conducted his investigation and determined that crimes were likely committed, but that he didn’t have the power to bring charges in his position as special counsel and it would be up to the AG.
Which is true. A DOJ special counsel is not the same thing as the independent counsel that used to exist, which was what Ken Starr was when he investigated Clinton.
A DOJ special counsel is completely beholden to the AG and DOJ policies and can’t bring charges without the AG signing off on them.
If you actually read the mueller report, it’s extremely damning and he turned it over to the AG and Congress to do something about it. The AG declined to bring any charges based on a DOJ memorandum that says a sitting POTUS cannot be charged. The House impeached Trump over the findings and the Senate failed to convict and remove him.
The current AG could still bring criminal charges over the conclusion of the report, but at this point it’s been so highly politicized that it would be impossible to get a conviction on.
Stop saying “the AG”. Say his fucking traitor name. William Barr. Who only got cold feet at the 11th hour when the groundwork for the coup was already being made.
The Mueller report - as you say, damning - was completed and then given to this scum, who withheld it, released a “summary”, claimed it found no wrongdoing whatsoever, eventually released a heavily redacted version…
I mean I remember it happening. This slimy fuck. He got a report that said the many ways Trump did illegal shit, but since he was the one who could choose when and how to release it, he was able to get ahead of the media by saying all kinds of bullshit lies. By the time he was finally forced to release the real report, it was too late, the “Trump did nothing wrong” story was already too far out there.
Look, I’m glad he finally, barely, by the skin of his teeth did the right thing and said there was no fraud in the 2020 election. But we should not forget that brazen bullshit he pulled in front of Congress and the American people.
Exactly. It’s insane we need to remember details like this but here we are.
This is exactly right
@Earthwormjim91 I am wondering if that is the reason we are not seeing any of the Trump kinds getting indicted To not make it look like justice is hunting them and legitimize the poplitical lies?
It was a waste of time and taxpayer money.
It was the only thing that could have been done when republicans controlled the DOJ and the Senate.
Maybe if people in the Midwest weren’t complete idiots we would have had Clinton instead and not had four years of irreversible damage plus a generation of scotus that is hell bent on dismantling everything.
Please don’t depress me from the reminder that Obama/Hillary should have seated 3 SCOTUS justices, cementing sanity for a generation.
Seems weird to think that something that accomplished absolutely nothing is a good use of taxpayer money but go off fam on the midwest.
It accomplished the third presidential impeachment in history and very likely helped lead to Biden winning and Trump not getting four more years.
Saying absolutely nothing is just defeatism at its best.
Just because it didn’t lead to the right conclusion doesn’t mean it accomplished nothing.
Just because it didn’t lead to the right conclusion doesn’t mean it accomplished nothing.
Plus the evidence discovered during te investigation stillnexists and is still part of the official record, meaning it can be used to support any future legal actions. And will serve as information for future historians looking back at this era.
Hopefully it can be used as part of some future “those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it” systemic improvements.
I think calling this a shitty take is a huge understatement
Muller half assed the investigation, on top of that corrupt Barr hid all the important findings, and Bitch McConnell swept the whole treason under the rug - that all lead Orange Man to be even bolder with his treason and rise of blatant lawlessness within the Republican Party.
I don’t disagree with what you said but I just wanted to point out how entire republican machinery is responsible for the imminent death of democracy in this country. Not just Muller’s half assed investigation.
I would kind of agree with you but I think it’s more that there are Republicans blocking any way they can and the ominous shadow of a compromised SCOTUS:
Edit: what’s up with the fuks in the web address, lol
I wonder if that’s a typo and a maga webmaster meant to slip in a sneaky “fuck Biden”?
unshakeable followers
You spelled ignorant morons wrong
Holy shit you’re in a pickle with this one America.
So why do we have to be so afraid of his followers that we are giving him special treatment to dissuade their violence? Instead of, you know, fighting back or having them jailed too. 🤦
Nearly 63,000,000 people voted for trump in '16.
If even 1% of them are crazy fucks, that’s 630,000 people to deal with. That’s not something to take lightly.
Doesn’t make it right, but it’s another layer of complexity.
In addition to being done right, he has to be pampered. I hate him passionately, but I really mean that. Subjecting him to the indignities of stuff like handcuffs, a mugshot, an orange suit, etc will turn him into a martyr in the eyes of his cult followers. And while the rest of us would enjoy seeing it, that’s not necessarily bringing out the best in us either. Donald Trump is an enormous pot-stirrer and unless you really want the pot to boil over you need to tiptoe around him, as unfair as that is.
turn him into a martyr in the eyes of his cult followers
they’re gonna continue to be terrorists no matter what we do and I’m sick of bowing to their terrorism
Choosing not to aggravate them is not bowing to them. Remember we’re talking about how we’ll prosecute Dear Leader. Get him where it counts, even if it has to be done quietly.
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What’s it matter? Because a large portion of those millions of followers are going to be in positions where they can do damage. You want to swing every single one to believe that the law was carried out in a manner true and faithful.
Imagine, if you will, if somehow the federal government passed a law banning firearms for private use. Right now. Do you think the police in most places would actually go around and try to seize firearms? Fuck no, and not just because they aren’t suicidal morons. Most of them think people should be able to own firearms. It would be chaos as some attempted to follow the law, and others did everything they could to sabotage it.
Now extend that to the military/national guard (and if it was “millions of followers” burning the country down, the military/national guard would get involved) in the event of Trump conviction and an imminent/happening revolt/riot. Imagine how many it would take to create mayhem inside of bases/squads/etc. Even if you want to be really positive and say that the military had plans for contingencies where they can effectively stop traitorous members, it would still take a chunk of operating efficiency.
So, think of the way this is being handled as an effort by a large group of people to head off complaints that could be made and accusations about incorrect handling that would give cretins something to latch onto and endlessly jabber about, thus preventing a potentially swayed individual from coming to the conclusion that yes, Trump was lawfully convicted without conspiracy because he actually fucking broke the law many, many times.
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How is it that different from indicting a sitting president…
I admire your optimism.
If it was really that bad the cia would have him killed. It’s just because he had a good team of lawyers to make sure that when he did anything he did it was either defendable or on someone else so it’s hard to get him.
Haha you think they would martyr him? Not likely
Have you seen the utterly unironic artwork?
Absolutely. You can estimate the number of true followers he has by looking at how many people use truth social (it’s still a thing) in comparison to pre-musk twitter. It’s a vocal minority. The only reason trump was able to get where he did was by getting the electoral college to believe he was the lesser evil (not gonna get into voter fraud) (and being really, really rich). They have him killed in such a way that it seems like it wasn’t them and he is still viewed as a martyr by few, but not all. Even if they truly believe that he was what they said he was, it won’t matter because no one rich enough exists that would want to replace him. They would be okay to do that.
The CIA really isn’t going to assasinate a prominent politician, let alone a former president. It would have massive consequences from delegitimizing the democratic system to causing riots all around the country.
Yeah my bad, you’re absolutely right. Everything I have said in this topic was out of my ass.
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This is probably a correct assumption, plus it also keeps it relevant. More of his supporters/underlings going to jail and it keeps the heat on. It drew it out for how long and now the nation is ramping up for another election and Trump’s indictments start flying in.
They are also worried about setting dangerous precedents in the process of closing these loopholes we didn’t think needed closing (like the largely ceremonial congressional ratification of votes on Jan 6,or the peaceful transition of power in general) and dismantling an enterprise whose director continually aims to obstruct a good faith process to the bitter end (Trump’s attacks on legislative and judicial branches, specifically DOJ and it’s bureaus).
Also, he’s not exactly “free.”. That being said, it is truly infuriating, and detrimental to all of us, consciously and subconsciously. It’s like Republicans are living out the ending of “Requiem for a Dream.”
The indictments have boosted Trump’s popularity though.
Is there any evidence that Trump has gained fans because of this? I cannot fathom how that could work.
“gained fans” is problematic because it’s subjective, but it’s being widely reported that his polling has improved with the indictments. This is the first hit in search with some details but there are many articles like it.
Briefly, the narrative that it’s a politically motivated witch hunt is resonating with voters.
If the trump era taught me only a couple things, one of them is that polls aren’t really very useful.
Yeah I don’t doubt there are some folks who now are more motivated to vote for trump… however that really exceeds the number who turned away from him?
What other criminal in history survives literally infinite evidence against them, and not just with their existing supporters, but also that evidence actively somehow turns NEW people in their favor? AND those new people outnumber the people who finally realize the truth??I just had a literal nightmare and this scenario feels right at home in the fucked world my mind conjured.
Yeah, but also remember that if there is one thing history taught us, it is that a non popular voted president can win still. Many of us were in disbelief when it happened with this guy.
Also, don’t underestimate the fact that people may disagree with Trump, but they only have to disagree/hate Biden more in order to vote for this guy.
So yes, I do agree that his polls may be increasing or rather, I never underestimate that they could be.
All fair points. I’m not resting on my laurels though. I’m just against the idea that we should be timid about prosecuting the motherfucker because of polls
one of them is that polls aren’t really very useful
IDK about this. We’ve certainly learned that polls are poor predictors of election outcomes, but can they at least reveal trends like “approval is increasing/decreasing” ? IDK.
I watch a lot of automotive content on YouTube, and it’s been interesting seeing right wing ads evolve (and yes, the fact that I like cars means they think I’m conservative bums me out, I also subscribe to bicycle stuff and climatetown, but whatever).
There’s a new one that is basically “Trump will lose to Biden again. Vote for anyone but him in the primary.” Kinda warmed my heart a bit.
When you’re a billionaire, you can do whatever the hell you want in Murica.
When you’re a billionaire, you can do whatever the hell you want.
Nah, it does depend a bit on the country. Didn’t several russian billionaires (aka oligarchs) … erm… have accidents last year? So I don’t think money helps you a lot in a system like that. It gets them further, no question. But ultimately it didn’t matter.
The country’s political system didn’t kill them. A more powerful billionaire killed them.
Unless you’re a Chinese billionaire and say something bad about Winnie the Pooh
Part of it is because there are still looming constitutional questions about whether a president, current or former, can be indicted for his actions during his presidency. I think we’ve mostly resolved those, though. A substantial and powerful cadre of political thugs is still going to try to sue to throw every conceivable barrier in the way of a reasonable interpretation of the law, but that just takes time to wade through the bullshit.
Another big problem is that Trump captured a huge amount of the judiciary, at all federal levels, by putting cronies into high ranking judicial seats. It’s the main thing Republicans have been doing for, like, 50 years. Putting a case in front of any one of those is a landmine, and that minefield has to be carefully navigated, and that also takes time. We’re basically done with that part, now.
The much bigger problem, in my perspective, is that any criminal trial requires a jury.
Almost 50% of the voting public voted for this motherfucker. His approval has dipped sharply since then, but still, a huge portion of the US public is willing to do just about anything to make sure “their guy” wins. They have proven nearly invulnerable to rational argument, emotional argument and any appeal to empathy or compassion. They will lie to get on that jury, and then they will vote for his acquittal if they don’t get caught. Voir dire–the process of choosing that jury–is going to be one of the most harrowing things any prosecutor ever has to do. And it has to be done correctly because it’s extremely important that once the wheels of justice start turning, that they reach the correct verdict.
Any thinking person knows what that verdict has to be. But there’s no guarantee that we’ll get it.
And if we don’t get it, we see the rule of law start to collapse at all levels. Remember the 1992 riots after the cops that beat Rodney King got acquitted? Imagine a whole country of that. The prosecutors in these cases are thinking about that. And that’s why they’re being extremely meticulous about every detail of these proceedings, because their errors could cost us a lot more than Trump getting away.
It feels like, while in theory it might be possible to convict a former president, in practice it’ll be literally impossible to find a jury who aren’t biased in one way or another, because everyone has a strong opinion about the man. I’d bet my life savings that for virtually every potential juror, how they voted in 2020 has a bigger impact on their verdict than any evidence either side could possibly provide.
@starman2112 @xantoxis it’s not about bias is about facts. If proved that something happens is not biased. It is called applying the law.
Lol you sweet innocent child
@xantoxis something must be very wrong when you have near 50% ppl voting for president someone like #mangomusollini after 4 years to comprove how unfit he is.
We knew something was very wrong when he even made it to the primary in 2015. The guy is a mockery of every aspect of what people traditionally considered to be decent.
💀
Do you have anything to say, or are you going to leave it at nothing?
What, in your opinion, is the reason why we’re at where we are with regards to Trump?
Nice, a three sentence callout without any refutation or detail.
If you are so confident in their confident incorrectness, put at least a minimum of effort into furthering the discussion.
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If you look at everything a politician does and think “How does this get them more money or power?” then things make more sense. There are a few exceptions but roll around with the pigs long enough and they get muddy too.
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If you come for the King, you best not miss.
This is what it boils down to. All this time, I kept seeing all the shit he did and kept wondering the same question. But the flurry of indictments over the past little while has answered it: they were biding their time, making sure all their ducks were in a row, so they could all collectively take one giant, perfect, swing for the fences. We can only hope they don’t miss.
Well, aside from what others are saying…
Try to picture Trump on the phone with the Proud Boys, giving them explicit instructions or discussing strategy. Even if he did talk to them (which I doubt), surely it’d be his usual “We’re going to do great things, great things, we’re all great people, we’re gonna turn this thing around, it’s going to be beautiful!”
When Russia collaborated to help Trump get elected, do you figure they talked on the phone in person? Or emailed back and forth? Motherfucker couldn’t make it through a one-page intelligence briefing, I’m not even sure he can write. Surely it was Trump’s people working with Putin’s people (several levels down in both cases).
You need to prove that Trump personally and intentionally violated the law. It’s not enough to show that shady shit was going on around him. And that’s hard to prove, since he generally was working at a remove. And this is a guy who’s been in and out of courtrooms his entire adult life; surely he has some instinct for what kinds of things to avoid.
Except when he was clearly hear saying he wanted the Georgia officials to find exactly enough votes to win, on a phone call to them.
I think my personal favorite was when he said on tape that he had stolen classified documents, they were definitely classified, that he could have declassified them and definitely chose not to do that, and that the person he was showing them to ‘shouldn’t look too close’ at them
Yes! He stepped right into that one.
The two indictments about Jan 6th and the plot to use fake electors offer a detailed look at a conspiracy. This isn’t just mob talk about “it would be awesome if this happened” – there is evidence of a coordinated effort to create fake electors and attempt to steal an election. The act of creating fake electors is a crime. The conspiracy to create fake electors is a crime.
All of these things are a crime. The problem is, in America, people who have power are held to a higher standard. Trump will get all sorts of concessions, and slow this down like mad. What he also has is an entire network carrying water for him. Because of Fox News – which was started to avoid another Nixon, he gets to both sides this.
Right. So to start out you prove there was a conspiracy, and you convict some of the members, and then finally you have enough evidence to go after the leader.
Trump wasn’t directly involved in illegal stuff (in most cases), he was doing it through underlings. So you need to start with the underlings, and roll him up last.
Look into RICO laws, it makes it much easier to convict people of those types of nebulous crimes. They were pretty much invented to take down mob bosses who “never personally did anything illegal.”
The GA indictments include RICO charges.
Yeah. But RICO charges require that you’ve got cooperation and guilty pleas from lower-ranking members of the organization, and they’re willing to point the finger at the leader and say “he’s the one who told me to do it”. So, yeah, that’s part of the reason why he’s the last one in the group to see the inside of a courtroom.
lower-ranking members of the organization
the preferred term nowadays seems to be “unindicted co-conspirators”
Are you joking? Numerous people have already turned on him, and those are only the ones we know about so far. You’re a fool if you think all of he people involved (many of whom Trump simply never paid, or immediately threw under the bus at his first convenience) are going to stick by him till the end.
Oh, they’re not going to stick with him! He’s finished, IMHO. But the question was why it took so long. It’s because the other conspirators had to go first to build the case.
Surely it was Trump’s people working with Putin’s people (several levels down in both cases).
Surely you have information that contradicts the investigations then right?
That’s bc collusion was made up by democrats as a way to deflect from why Clinton lost on 2016. It’s not that she’s an old corrupt fucker that nobody likes, it’s bc the ruskies came in and sabotaged her so drumpf could win (according to dems at least)
Russia directly helped Trump. Hillary is a piece of shit who no one wants to vote for.
Both are true. Try and cope with it.
no you have to make sure that he was involved with the conspiracy to break laws you don’t have to prove that he actually did anything as long as he was involved with the conspiracy that’s the whole point of Rico and conspiracy charges to begin with
You can go to jail for being head of a criminal organization or conspiracy. This requires that 1) prosecutors prove that the conspiracy was in fact illegal, and engaged in illegal activity, and 2) that you were in fact the head of that conspiracy. That all requires cooperation from other defendants. So it takes time to build a case like that.
what do you think they’ve been doing the last few years?
I, uh…I think they’ve been building the case against Trump by getting convictions, confessions, and plea deals from his underlings. Which is what I said in response to the initial question: why isn’t Trump in prison, even though a lot of his underlings are? Because that was a necessary prerequisite to making the case against him, since he probably wasn’t involved in the day-to-day activities.
I never said anything like “these are things they aren’t doing”. I’m just explaining the timing.
Finally, some good fucking answers.
It has been a taboo to go after previous politicians, so all prosecutors are trying their best to ensure that they’ve followed every procedure to the letter, which has taken a while.
We are also dealing with a person with a long history of doing whatever he can to stretch out court cases.
Wrong. Prosecutors always start at the bottom. Plea deals for future testimony is extremely standard. Don’t let the reddit brigade convince you otherwise.
Trump has avoided legal trouble so far because there hasn’t been enough evidence to guarantee charges would stick. With the latest few indictments, he either basically admitted to the charges or other new evidence came to light. It’s taken so long because the prosecutors are making sure they built absolutely bulletproof cases, and because the nature of the trials (first time a former president has been charged), and because trump’s lawyers are trying to delay as much as possible. It’s basically a huge mess, but the general sentiment is that trump is screwed… Eventually.
He’s committed many crimes with enough evidence against him. He announced on TV he was obstructing justice. The justice department refused to charge him cause he was president, hinting he could be impeached.
If they arrest him, there is a major concern of right-wing terrorism.
Police departments don’t want that to happen because they’ll have to arrest their own.
Government departments will also start to point fingers at one another, as loyal maga fucks deep inside places may refuse to act or do their job.
The legal way is the most non-violent way to handle this, even if it does drag on and on.
I know this may be pedantic, but he was “arrested” the same day he was arraigned for the first three indictments (he will surrender later this week for the fourth one in Georgia). He just wasn’t handcuffed and isn’t being detained while he awaits trial. He was also booked at the courthouse instead of the police station.
and isn’t being detained while he awaits trial
I expect his secret service detail will act as an assurance that he won’t skip the country.
All true. Arresting him would also make the Secret Service’s job enormously more difficult.
Only if he is in GenPop which won’t happen.
Or easier, because they can just stand guard on his cell.
I mean, I would never talk directly to them. And you would never talk directly to them. But neither one of us would go on the record on video saying we could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot somebody.
There have been plenty of cases where he’s done some incredibly stupid things that he could easily have gotten away with simply by playing along. Hell look at the documents, he could have literally just made photocopies of them said my bad and It would never have even hit the press.
I think the legal system is just moving as slowly and carefully as possible to make sure he can’t lawyer his way out of these things.
Donald Trump is a fucking moron. But you didn’t answer the question asked, did you? Perhaps you and Donny T have a bit more in common than you’d like to admit?
Did you read the last part of the comment?
Because current US politics and justice system are a sham that only serves the rich.
How come there are still people who get the death penalty but later get found to be innocent, while when it comes to an ex-politician, they gotta drag the process out for years and years to find every single detail?
Not only that but we say corporations are people, yet when they are found to have knowingly caused actual human death, we punish them by making them pay a small fraction of the profits they earned through those same actions. Fuck capitalism.
It’s a good question - all Constitutional scholars agree he has violated Section 3 of the 14th Amendment and is therefore ineligible to hold any political office (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/08/donald-trump-constitutionally-prohibited-presidency/675048/) but does America have the collective strength to admit it?
The laws for who goes on the ballot are set by the individual states.
I suppose the Federal Election Committee could deny his federal application, or the Attorney General of the U.S. could sue the FEC to force an injunction against his filing under the 14th? It’s not clear.
In any case, regardless of how it got there, it would end up in court and be decided by the Supreme Court, which is ultra conservative right now.
Bla bla bla.
It’s not ambiguous. You either follow the Constitution or you are a traitor to it.
I’m literally describing to you how that process works. It doesn’t matter by what avenue it happens, it’ll absolutely end up in front of the supreme Court, and then they’ll get to decide to agree with whatever decision was made or reverse it.
Unless they have a reason to lock him up to protect their own interests, the Supreme Court is probably not going to do shit. That’s WHY Trump picked them, as an “insurance measure”, and unfortunately it seems to be working.
“All”? If you can’t even get all dentists to agree you should use toothpaste, I doubt it. More importantly, he’s not convicted of anything yet
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odds are he will be
This answer doesn’t address the question. Did you comment on the wrong post or are you just generally always this confused?
The rich and powerful are exempt from the rules
The rich and powerful are exempt from the rules
Close. They have the resources (money and connections with money) to fight back.
Nah they’re just exempted.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelly_Miscavige
Most of their crimes are never even investigated.
Nah they’re just exempted.
… because they have money/power. You think the judge let him off free just for fun? The judge got paid (or threatened) one way or another. If the du pont guy didn’t have the money/connections he did they would have locked him up and not given it a second thought.
Same with Shelly Miscavige, there’s a lot of people with money involved. It’s an uphill battle. Nobody should be above the law, but it’s allowed because if you have enough money you can at the very least exhaust the resources of those trying to come after you.
They always get away with it.
*Most of the time. Not always.
Money and power. He has (or claims to have) alot of money and alot of people on the Right still seem to follow him, but I think that’s more just based on momentum, there’s really nobody else on the Right that they have that’s as “charismatic” as Trump. The closest they have is DeSantis, and he’s just some wannabe fanboy with no personality. I personally think Trump is pretty much done and washed up, the GOP just doesn’t know what else to do at this point (certainly he still has a shot at the presidency, but I doubt it’ll work out). The Right had one really good shot at a violent coup on January 6, and the only reason they really managed to pull anything off was because Trump himself was in charge at the time and he was able to subdue the Federal response to it.
I think one of the main reasons he’s being treated with kid gloves is out too much caution of it appearing political. I think the DOJ is afraid of appearing partisan if the Democrat’s #1 political opponent were to be locked up (regardless of how slam dunk the evidence is). In any other country, we’d assume that it was a dictator trying to tighten their control of the political system by locking up their opponents, and that’s exactly what Biden/DOJ/Democrats are being accused of. Personally I think there’s going to be some amount of protest or violence if/when he gets locked up/sentenced/found guilty/whatever, they may as well just do it now to get it out of the way. The longer we wait and the closer we get to the election, the worse it’s going to get. It honestly won’t matter how much evidence is trotted out during the multiple trials, or how many judges/juries find him guilty, Republicans are still going to bitch and whine about it. He’s obviously guilty though, there’s more than enough evidence.
