• Cypher@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    1
    ·
    1 hour ago

    I received a refund in 2018 though they have since tried changing their EULA and TOS to make it harder, they have no legal standing to refuse a refund to Australian customers.

    I was refunded for around $750 USD IIRC and at one point was in email contact with Will Leverett prior to my refund being approved.

  • HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    16
    ·
    10 hours ago

    My employer after they let me go wanted me sign a contract saying I absolve them and all their associates of everything from the begining of time. yes it actually said from the begining of time.

    • SSTF@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      5 hours ago

      One time I got an “in between” job at a local business. The first day I showed up and the place made me sign a 17 page front and back NDA.

      I’ve signed actual, legitimate NDAs. They are like 3 pages, max. Some people are just preposterous.

      • HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        3 hours ago

        Yeah I go through all the contracts and paperwork and I am never wild about any of them but this is one of two types of things I refused to sign despite losing a fair sum with them. I totally get people signing them though as its a tough loss to deal with. There needs to be laws around reasonableness of contracts.

      • Rai@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        6 hours ago

        I had an employer (wrongfully) terminate me and they wanted me to sign a similar thing. I asked if I could just… not. My (very cool, forced to do this) manager said “absolutely.” I didn’t sign it. I applied for unemployment. Started getting free money.

        They fought it. I had a conference call with a judge and that same manager. I was shaking. The judge asked “MANAGER, did you have any reason to suspect that Rai did the thing they’re accused of doing?”

        “Nope.”

        End of call.

        Thank you for the year of playing TF2 for 40 hours a week, dope-ass manager.

  • rem26_art@fedia.io
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    78
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    18 hours ago

    every new thing i learn about Star Citizen is like far sketchier than the last thing I learned about it.

    • Cagi@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      16
      arrow-down
      56
      ·
      edit-2
      17 hours ago

      Always remember “The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.”

      There’s a lot of bullshit in the Star Citizen controversy. Hating it generates a lot of revenue for Massively and The Escapist (two of the worst tabloids in the industry). Just play it once during a free fly before you judge. If everyone did that, these articles wouldn’t exist.

      • 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 ℹ️@yiffit.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        24
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        13 hours ago

        I’ve played it several times during those.

        It’s never improved. It’s a piece of shit game designed to take money from morons.

        Defending it isn’t going to make your loss of money any less painful.

      • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        36
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        16 hours ago

        And how exactly does a free fly invalidate the article about refunds requiring an NDA? Nobody is questioning whether there’s is some semblance of a game in a project that has been in development for over a decade, it would be a massive red flag if there’s wasn’t. What people are questioning is why is there a secret shop page that players can access ONLY after they’ve spent a thousand dollars on the game, and then another secret shop page after they’ve spent 10k? What’s up with the predatory practices?

        Is your response “No no no, don’t look at those controversies. Look at how pretty the game is”? A free fly event doesn’t invalidate the claim that you might need to sign an NDA to get a refund. It doesn’t invalidate the claim that the devs had to pull 7 day work weeks. There are loads of criticism that the free fly does not address at all. These articles would exist even if everyone tried the free fly.

        From my experience games that get “hate articles” are games that are already doing questionable things. You don’t get such articles circulating about good games because that shit just won’t stick. When it comes to SC and CI that shit does stick.

        • Tayb@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          15 hours ago

          “A” refund, from “one” redditor who has provided no proof. On a subreddit that’s been known to brigade. I’m not saying CIG is a saint, but I feel like a rag piece and the outrage need to hold off for more info.

          • Agent Karyo@lemmy.worldOP
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            14 hours ago

            On a subreddit that’s been known to brigade.

            How do you know this? There is a reason why I am asking.

            And would you be willing to change your opinion if a redacted copy of the NDA was published?

            • ChicoSuave@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              14 hours ago

              Seeing is believing and it would sway myself and many more. Until then, it is just another article written based on an unsubstantiated reddit post. And I’ve seen enough Reddit posts be bullshit to need to see that NDA before believing.

            • Tayb@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              5
              ·
              13 hours ago

              What’s your reason for asking? I’m assuming because you linked a rag piece and not the original reddit thread for context?

              I’d need to see at least two different people with the same claim submit redacted copies. One of which should not have any history on the refunds reddit. One motivated person could forge an NDA, and again, I wouldn’t put it past that community to hallucinate yet another slight.

              • Agent Karyo@lemmy.worldOP
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                12 hours ago

                I am just curious how you know this? The SC reddit sub is huge compared to the refunds sub.

                Just seems strange to claim to be so focused on “proof”, while seemingly making your own claims without any data. Shouldn’t there be a common standard?

                • Tayb@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  10 hours ago

                  Right, because the refundians are a loose collective, and CIG is a company. You can’t point at a singular post and go “there’s the brigading,” mostly because they get removed by mods, but hate groups brigade. But to cite a source, the Derek Smart “90 day cash flow” claim is a good place to start.

                  CIG has plenty of things to rightfully criticize, but this isn’t one of them until multiple people from multiple sources come forward. It’s sensationalist bullshit until proven otherwise.

        • schizo@forum.uncomfortable.business
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          14 hours ago

          secret shop page

          This is a luxury brand staple: it engenders loyalty because it makes the whales “better”.

          You can’t buy certain luxury bags or watches or cars or whatever unless you have spent a giant pile of money on crap you may or may not want as the price of being allowed the special sales.

          Same thing.

        • Cagi@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          17
          ·
          edit-2
          15 hours ago

          They aren’t half as shady as every other AAA gaming company. These things are blown way out proportion and CIG is held to double standards. They have crunch time and NDAs for disgruntled assholes? Oh no, the world is over, this company is pure evil like none other! It’s really not a big deal that this one refund has an NDA. Their others don’t, so it’s a weird thing, but to say this is proof of wrongdoing is fallacious grasping. To believe what Massively has to say about Star Citizen is like listening to what fox News has to say about Climate Change. Every little thing they can spin into making cig look bad they take, even things every other company does without issue. Hating SC gets way more engagement and ad revenue then almost any other kind of critical article in gaming. Just look at any post about SC on this community compared to others. It’s insane. And I don’t use that term lightly.

      • hornedfiend
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        18
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        17 hours ago

        I love these encouragements. Yes,by all means,play it during a free flight event and see what a POS tech demo it is. Good luck completing a single mission without dying to endless bugs or having top notch hardware to even hope of it being a fairly decent experience.

        In the year 2024 CIG doesn’t even know what FSR 1 is. They’ve been promising Vulkan for years now. Even single indie dev games have it to some extent.

        SC will never be finished.

        • fahfahfahfah@lemmy.billiam.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          16 hours ago

          They actually already implemented Vulcan. Though in true CIG fashion it’s pretty unstable compared to DX11. Also those free fly events are ironically a terrible time to play the game because the fragile ass servers get super bogged down. Outside of those events it’s usually decently stable.

        • Cagi@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          18
          ·
          edit-2
          16 hours ago

          Pitchforks and rabble rousing is fun, but I actually play the game. It is a fun time, worthy of hundreds of hours as it is right now. Many people have thousands of hours. The growing number of players and growing revenue tell a different story than your ill informed guesses and chipped shoulder. This is as much a tech demo as any other early access game. I know this because I actually play it regularly. The lived experiences of the vast majority of players outweighs the angry whinging of people who don’t know what they’re talking about.

          Who cares if it never finishes? It’s fun now. I have had much more than my money’s worth of fun. $50 ten years ago is still paying off in enjoyment now and it’s getting better with every update. This is what the overwhelming majority of the growing number of thousands and thousands of regular players all say. Crying about it doesn’t change facts.

      • Agent Karyo@lemmy.worldOP
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        13 hours ago

        Do you have any source for that claim regarding MOP and The Escapist? Just bringing up that quote isn’t a magical “I am right” button.

        I tried their free trials 4 times. Twice I encountered game breaking bugs (required a restart and switching service respectively).

        Let’s ignore that for now. I will start with the good things. The planet to space transition was pretty cool, not going to lie. The cities were also detailed and looked nice (the first time you take the train in one of the cities, it does contribute to the world building). That being said, both the planets and the POI have nothing to offer in terms of actual gameplay structure. The cities might as well be a menu based system for purchases/interactions. The planets just have some random uninspired mission locations that all feel the same. You might as well have a separate map that you enter via cutscene.

        But the biggest was the horrible gameplay. It’s one of the reasons I believe star citizen is scam.

        I will use a small trading indie game called Merchant of the Skies as a comparison point. It was developed by a husband and wife duo in less than 12 months. The game has:

        • Dynamic world impacted by trading activities. City taxation/reputation, new resources, new locations, new ships and upgrades all open up as you complete various trading missions.
        • Bazaar system. There are several location on a map that have weekly bazaars. Certain days have peak visitors while others are off days. You have to time your arrivals/trading.
        • Supply and demand system in bazaar sales. You over/under price your goods depending on how much of your ship’s inventory you want to sell. This is also tied to the weekly visitors intensity system.
        • Refueling system. Locations on the edge of the map have refuelling station that are few and far between. There is a simple RNG system for bonus fuel during travels.
        • Mail/passenger travel side missions. You can occasionally help travellers and deliver mail. It’s fun to align this with your trading activities.
        • Different late-game ships that you can pick depending on your play-style (it’s not only about cargo capacity, it does actually have a relatively big impact on how you go about the game).

        This is just the gameplay that is relevant for comparison. There is also in-depth base-building, complex trade fleets and delivery scheduling, a simple RPG system, a simple ship employee system, a simple bank system, a resource gathering system, rudimentary exploration (map is randomized on each run), a mainline story and a bunch of different side missions.

        Now compare that to star citizen. No supply/demand. No world impact. No economy. There is nothing to do except get more money to get ships. Sure you play with other players, but is there any kind of competition in terms of trading? They don’t even have a functional escort system where you can hire NPC ships for defence against griefers.

        And crude gameplay is not limited to trade. FPS combat with single digit ticks? Exploration with one fully explored system? I will add that they sell non-functional “exploration ships” for hundreds of dollars; some of them are literal JPEGs. There is a bunch of other stuff that they’ve marketed but have simply not implemented or completely abandoned after the initial cash shop sales campaign (data running, journalism spaceships, refuelling spaceships, passenger transport spaceships, medical spaceships, farming spaceships, flying bazaar spaceship, mine laying spaceship, the list just goes on and on).

        And this is after ~12 years and allegedly ~$750 million spent on development.

        I will speculate a lot of that money goes to the founder’s family, key insiders and friends and they knowingly lie about their capabilities, intentions and just make shit up to sell JPEGs.

        You don’t have to agree with the last point, but am I wrong with respect to trading/hauling in SC?

        • ChicoSuave@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          14 hours ago

          “People give them money for a game” as a business model seems to be applied evenly for everyone else except CIG and Star Citizen. They were given money by fans to make a game. It currently is playable and is in active development. You put up an example where the game has similar systems but radically different gameplay. Star Citizen has gameplay, it is a fun activity to play with friends and it has a thriving ecosystem (despite your clearly untrue claim otherwise). You don’t play it, only know about it in the abstract, and don’t seem to understand game development.

          Hating Star Citizen feels less like genuine criticism and more like angry people grasping at a meme.

              • David From Space@orbiting.observer
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                4 hours ago

                “Wow, this half developed feature is so interesting, here’s a list of improvements that should be made to make it fun!” are 3/4s of the comments on that thread.

                ‘Proud’ owner of a 300i, still waiting on that ‘Rework’ from 2014 2018 ???.

              • Agent Karyo@lemmy.worldOP
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                12 hours ago

                What exactly did they release in terms of trading/hauling gameplay? Can you be specific?

                If anything the post suggests whatever they did release is still pretty crude (as one can assume based on the feedback given in the thread - this is basic stuff).

                In context of a multiplayer game, you would want some sort of dynamism and player interaction. Something along the lines of “planet X is building Y, requiring deliver of Z within the next 2 IRL months.”

                Successful completion of this mission would result in % discount on trade NPC escorts (which don’t exist in SC) or additional NPC security on major trade routes. Pirate players and NPCs pirates would need to try and stop traders/haulers from successful completing the mission within 2 months. You know, real gameplay for traders and other “classes” with an impact on the game.

                I am a 3 year old because I think trading/hauling gameplay in SC is complete shit after 12 years and raises questions about the where the money is going? Come on…

                I don’t hate the game. Hate is reserved for serious things. I do think it is a scam and outlined why. It’s a reasonable assumption considering the history of SC.

      • simple@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        edit-2
        16 hours ago

        Star Citizen is a game that exists, so sure, maybe “scam” isn’t the right word for it, but they’re still insanely sketchy. They constantly make promises they never meet, constantly beg the community for more funding when they already have an outrageous amount of funding, add insanely overpriced microtransactions to try to profit off whales, etc…

        SC is driven by hype and nothing else. So many years later it still runs like ass and is very barebones, there’s a giant question mark on where all that money went and how the project is being handled. No Man’s Sky had a fraction of the budget and size and they managed to do so much more.

        At best it’s the worst managed video game project of all time.

        • Cagi@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          12
          ·
          edit-2
          16 hours ago

          Ten years on and you think their growing players count and revenue is still just hype? No. The people who try the game are sticking around. If it was just hype it would have died years ago. It is genuinely fun to play right now. I can tell you this because I’m having lots of fun in it right now. When is the last time you played it?

          Where does any game spend it’s money? That’s not ever public info. The fact that SC is publicly posting its revenue is opening them up to this double standard they are better than other companies with. We know they just bought a massive new building to hire more devs, so the evidence suggests they spend their money on development. They don’t spend any of it on dividends for any already rich ultracalitalist investors because they don’t have any, so they already have every other AAA company beat. (Those investors also invest in gaming journalism).

          • Agent Karyo@lemmy.worldOP
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            14 hours ago

            They do have investors. And at any rate, it makes no difference if the money is instead going to the founders family members. He hired his unqualified spouse (openly admitted to not know what SEO was and how metrics worked) for a senior position and they changed her surname and told employees to not reveal that they were married.

            • Cagi@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              14 hours ago

              He turned into a snake and convinced Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge, he dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, and he is the real developer of Spore. His wife is actually a Hitler clone. CIG funded 9/11.

                • Cagi@lemmy.ca
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  13 hours ago

                  Passionately enjoying something is far less cringey than passionately hating a videogame this much.

      • vxx@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        15 hours ago

        I was going to side with you, but then I visited their webpage. 12 necessary cookies? This company is scummy.

  • dustyData@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    49
    arrow-down
    10
    ·
    18 hours ago

    SC is a scam. Of course they’re willing to break the law to keep the money they stole.

  • ChicoSuave@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    arrow-down
    21
    ·
    13 hours ago

    All of the complaints against Star Citizen and CiG are made by folks who don’t understand how games are made AND believe the people who make them, like Randy Pitchford, Peter Molyneux, Emoji Imagine, and others. Game designers talk about all the features that they want and then meet reality and have to pull those features back or cut them from the game.

    A publisher traditionally puts limits and deadlines on funding, requiring a developer to meet a criteria to get paid and continue development. The publisher will preview builds and give feedback on game mechanics or broader suggestions for game polish.

    Game designers who see success begin to dream big and will eventually pitch an idea that they can’t make because the money or time needed to implement the feature would prohibit the game from releasing in a timely manner. Chris Roberts made all of the Wing Commander series. He has a track record of making games that were so big and full of features that they inevitably see many features missing from the final game. Freelancer is the one everyone thinks of when they think chopped up Chris Roberts game.

    Star Citizen has no publisher to guide the veteran game developer. This allows Star Citizen to change game engines 3 times, having to rebuild much of their progress each time. Any why change the game engines? They were forced to because Crytek are bitches who wanted that giant pile of crowdfunding Star Citizen has gathered. Crytek forced the game to stop development - which is a large part of the delay in getting the game to market.

    People don’t know or care about the actual reason Star Citizen is still being developed instead of being released years ago. Most of you don’t care, but given the circumstances, no one could do any better.

    • Agrivar@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      2 hours ago

      God damn, it’s been a while since I’ve crossed paths with an honest-to-god rube! Keep on keepin’ on, you flickering bulb.