- cross-posted to:
- nottheonion@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- nottheonion@lemmy.world
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Why @blaze@sopuli.xyz
It’s not me, it’s @BeardedBlaze@lemmy.world, or @britishblaze@lemmy.world !
Having Automatic fire alarms in fire stations is not legally required in Germany (to be more exact in any of the 16 German states, because hooray, federalism), and thanks to the German state religion of austerity, therefore they are rarely installed.
Fires like that don’t even happen that rarely, typically the cause is some battery on a charger, of which you will find plenty on pretty much any vehicle in any fire station. (The vehicle’s starter battery, handheld radios, handheld lamps, portable motorised equipment with starter battery, battery tools, etc.) Since by far the most German fire stations aren’t staffed most of the time (more than 90% of Germany’s firefighters are volunteers), often nobody will notice a fire before it’s already too late.
This is all wild to me, alarms not required in a building that is largely unoccupied?! Who cares that its purpose is to fight fires? Especially if people aren’t there often it needs an alarm!
And most of your firefighters are volunteers? I can understand having volunteer firefighters in rural areas, but Germany seems like a country where most of the population lives in urban or reasonably dense suburban areas, at least from an American perspective of population density. My midsize town of just under 80,000 people has a population density of around 1100 people per square kilometer and has a professional fire department with about 110 full-time employees working at 6 different stations. It started as a volunteer department a century ago when the town was tiny, but as it grew they eventually switched to a professional force. Our property insurance rates would be very high if it wasn’t professional.
Does Germany not need as many firefighters because many buildings are constructed of materials less susceptible to burning?
This is all wild to me, alarms not required in a building that is largely unoccupied?! Who cares that its purpose is to fight fires? Especially if people aren’t there often it needs an alarm!
Explain such a logical and self explanatory idea to the lawmakers and bureaucrats of 16 different states. If you’re from the US, you will have a quite good understanding of the downsides of federalism yourself.
Typically, automatic alarms are only required in buildings that pose a very significant danger in case of an undetected fire, unfortunately that does not include the indirect danger of not having a fire station anymore after it burns down.
And most of your firefighters are volunteers?
Yes, a legal requirement for having a professional fire department only exists in cities over a certain size. (thanks to federalism and German history, this is a bit location dependent, in the Western states, the magic number is 100000 inhabitants, in the Eastern ones, it’s 50000) Those cities will have a volunteer fire department in addition to the professionals, the way the volunteers are used depends a bit on the city, some will use them as back-up for large incidents, others will use them for specialist roles, while again others will use them for regular coverage outside of normal working hours. (Or any thinkable combination of that) Larger stations in cities under that size limit typically employ a few paid maintenance technicians who will also respond to incidents. (on their own for small things, in combination with the volunteers for larger ones)
Does Germany not need as many firefighters because many buildings are constructed of materials less susceptible to burning?
Germany does have roundabout 1.1 million firefighters in total, the density is pretty high. This is due to the legal requirements of meeting pretty strict response times pretty much in any village, town, and city. The exact times vary a bit from state to state (again our old friend federalism), and some even make a distinction between urban and rural areas, but typically it’s something between 10 and 15 minutes from an emergency being called in (the clock starts ticking the second you dial the emergency number) to the first unit arriving in sufficient strength to do something about it. The measure for sufficient strength, unless there are other dangers, is a “critical dwelling fire” meaning a fire in an inhabited building with person(s) trapped. The absolute minimum to even start dealing with that according to German tactical standards is 6 firefighters. Response time limits for subsequent reinforcements arriving also exist, and requirements for the total strength and equipment of fire department, depending on the hazards present at the municipality in question.
In order to meet that requirement, the preferred way for municipalities smaller than those that require a professional fire department, is having volunteer fire departments, but in case not enough volunteers can be found, they are legally required to conscript able residents for compulsory fire service.
I know there’s a National Fire Code in the US that serves as a minimum standard for every state, but an individual state can make stricter requirements if they want. I’m not sure if the base level is federally mandated or it’s just an agreement among the states to have a baseline that is easier to design to for companies working in multiple states.
I’m pretty sure the basic standard in the US is that most buildings (with few exceptions) should have at least one smoke detector, and usually more depending on the type of building. Normally in residences I think now there is supposed to be at least 1 per level in a single family home along with 1 per bedroom, but there could be fewer in older buildings built to an older standard that maybe weren’t required to upgrade (although highly recommended).
I guess one distinction we haven’t made is having an alarm vs. having a monitored alarm, something that will notify perhaps a private monitoring company, a watchman on site, or directly to an emergency dispatcher. Monitored alarms aren’t legally mandated in nearly as many buildings, but insurance companies may require them in more buildings than code requires. If a commercial building doesn’t have a monitored alarm their insurance rates might be much higher or they might be unable to get any insurance. The owner of a large apartment building might need a monitored system for insurance while someone who owns their own single family home normally doesn’t, but might get a discount on their insurance if they have a monitored alarm.
Does Germany at least require smoke detectors that will alert a building’s occupants, even if the alarm doesn’t send a signal elsewhere?
Does the 1.1 million firefighters number cover just your professionals or also include the trained volunteers/conscripts? Compulsory fire service is an interesting concept. Does that force employers to make concessions that might’ve prevented an individual from otherwise being able to volunteer?
I guess one distinction we haven’t made is having an alarm vs. having a monitored alarm
For buildings that pose significant hazards in case of a fire (how that is defined depends on the exact state legislation) must have automatic fire alarm systems (similar to what you’re calling “monitored alarms”) that are standardised and hooked up directly to the emergency control centre. If one of those goes off, the relevant fire department will be alerted according to a predefined response plan. Fire insurance might also give clients a discount for installing an alarm system where it’s not mandated by the authorities. Fire insurance for buildings is mandatory.
Does Germany at least require smoke detectors that will alert a building’s occupants, even if the alarm doesn’t send a signal elsewhere?
For buildings where people are present for a prolonged duration, typically, yes, at least for certain rooms. But the details are a little complicated, because public safety is a state matter. So every state has their own fire safety laws, they are similar, but distinctly different. But all states have made domestic smoke detectors mandatory so far, typically the minimum rooms that must have one being staircases, hallways and bedrooms.
Does the 1.1 million firefighters number cover just your professionals or also include the trained volunteers/conscripts
It includes, the 35000 professional firefighters, and another 33000 corporate firefighters. (businesses that pose a significant hazard can be mandated to have a fire department of their own)
Compulsory fire service is an interesting concept.
It’s also very old, In many places, there were medieval fire safety laws that required every household to have a certain number of fire buckets and every able bodied resident to grab that bucket and to come to a prearranged place when the fire bell was being rung.
These days there are only very few compulsory fire departments at any time, as all fire safety laws explicitly state those are a temporary measure with the goal of (re-)establishing a volunteer fire department. In fact very few compulsory fire departments ever came into being due to a genuine lack of people willing to volunteer, most of the time, they have to be created after a dispute between the municipal administration and its volunteer firefighters, ending in the volunteers collectively walking out. In that case, the administration will typically simply conscript its former volunteers, but that doesn’t mean all is good, because if you’re conscripted for service, you have to be compensated for every minute of your time.
Does that force employers to make concessions that might’ve prevented an individual from otherwise being able to volunteer?
Basically, employers are already legally required to let volunteers go and continue paying their salary in case they are alerted. They can reclaim that paid salary from the municipal administration. Theoretically, employers can be fined for not letting their employees leave and technically, even the volunteers are legally required to show up to calls, (There is a saying that goes like “You volunteer to join, you volunteer to quit, everything in between is your duty”) but in practise, quite a bit of slack is cut, in case you are a serial no-show, typically, at some point, your superiors will have a talk with you, and if you keep not showing up for no reason, at some point later, they’ll revoke your active membership status.
If you’re conscripted into a compulsory fire department, you will be fined for not showing up, unless you have a really good excuse. The fines, which are of a more theoretical possibility with volunteers, will be enforced in case an employer refuses to let a conscripted firefighter leave without a good reason.
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Wikipedia actually has an English article on the fire service in Germany, which is a good starting point to learn more. (but feel free to ask more questions anyway) Be aware that the total number of firefighters stated there, over 1.3 million, includes the 270000 members of the volunteer fire departments’ youth groups, which are their main recruiting tool.
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Fire station work no fire alarms
Oooooh boy
Yeah.
Even if it’s not required, someone should have considered the schadenfreude and PR disaster from something like this happening.
The “This won’t ever happen to me” vibe is very strong in Germany. We even have a fire service related joke term for it. Let me introduce you to the “St. Florians-Prinzip”, the “principle of St. Florian”, which is centered on the idea of praying to St. Florian, the patron saint of firefighters, to spare your own house, but light someone else’s on fire instead:
Oh heiliger Sakt Florian,
verschon unser Haus,
zünd’ and’re an.
(This principle is also often used to describe NIMBYism)
Not the onion material
the shoemakers children run barefoot
The town of Stadtallendorf had proudly unveiled the new structure less than a year ago
oh boy, structure not even a year old, and 10 fire trucks burned down
at least the fire protection wall worked as intended, guarding against further fire spreading
The closing paragraph is kinda absurd.
Schäfer said for reasons of safety as well as for local morale, the building had to be reconstructed as swiftly as possible. Whether a future structure would be fitted with a fire alarm system would be a matter for discussion, officials said.
German efficiency.
I know you’re being sarcastic, but for the sake of people still believing in German efficiency, believe me, it is nothing but a myth.
The inside experience is more one of a Kafkaesque nightmare full of Byzantine bureaucracy where you keep filing all sorts of complicated forms, get them rejected because of a comma in the wrong place, re-file them (of course in triplicate), get them rejected again because of a comma in the right place, re-file once more, only for a deadline to have expired just before, and when you’re finally done with the mountainous amount of paperwork, you’ll be told by some official in no uncertain terms that, despite all the forms, you don’t get to be a cool giant bug as in a proper Kafkaesque nightmare.
