All candidates propped up by Republicans to siphon votes from Harris. We have a shitty system, but the way it works is Harris or Trump or abstain because you don’t care.
Do you legitimately believe Claudia De La Crúz is propped up by Republicans? The Reps and Dems collaborated on kicking them off the ballot in some states.
I don’t have a problem with people voting for a third party as long as they admit they are good with Trump winning. It’s great to see socialists and greens showing up at the polls and voting for progressive candidates at every level. I just can’t stand the naivety of a third-party voter thinking they are going to teach Harris a thing or two.
The Dems will only ever move to regain votes they’ve lost, otherwise they go to the right like their donors want.
This isn’t Bush v Gore where it was two centrist oligarchs battling it out to be more pro-business. The is President Donald J Trump Part II, this time with more fascism and executive immunity. If you lived through the first term and think, “yeah, I don’t care if that guy comes back,” then I don’t know how to even relate as a human. Harris ain’t perfect, but she must win.
Harris and Trump are nearly identical on foreign policy, which includes genocide, and neither are good for America. If you can’t relate to me, that’s fine, genocide is a firm red line for me so I will listen to Muslim Americans and Palestinians, who are recommending candidates like Stein and Claudia De La Crúz.
Do you legitimately believe Claudia De La Crúz is propped up by Republicans? The Reps and Dems collaborated on kicking them off the ballot in some states.
The Republicans want RFK off the ballots, and the Dems want De La Cruz, Stein, and West off the ballots. I’m not maintaining a delusion that this isn’t a game. Both sides are propping up the third party candidates that hurt their opponents.
But yes, I legitimately believe Claudia De La Cruz is propped up by Republicans, because they are doing it out in the open. Look at Georgia, where the Republican Secretary of State overruled the courts and kept independent candidates on the ballot after RFK voluntarily withdrew.
I agree we need to push the Dems forward, because capitalism will always resist progress.
Harris and Trump are not anywhere close on foreign policy. Harris does support Israel, and Israel is engaged in a genocide. I’m not disputing that. But That’s the only overlap between Harris and Trump, and Trump is proactively supporting the genocide, whereas Harris at least pays lipservice to the goal of ending the violence.
I can understand why that makes it impossible for you to support Harris. I cannot understand why you are unable to see the difference between Harris and Trump. You may not like Harris’ position, but if you hate that, Trump’s position is objectively worse. Opposing both of them, refusing to take a side, refusing to cast a vote, these are all the choices that take you out of the equation. Your vote literally won’t count.
Harris is not going to change her stance on Israel before the election. After the election, she may evolve on the issue if she continues to face pressure. Maybe, maybe not. But there will be the possibility to make the argument. Right now, the Dems have decided that supporting Israel gains them more votes than it loses, and they can live with that.
And this is where the third party arguments fall off the rails. Where has Jill Stein been the last four years? De La Cruz, to her credit, has been organizing protests and fundraising, but with little actual effect. Change happens slowly, with dilligence and dedication. It requires thoughtful, strategic effort, and doesn’t happen in a single election cycle. It doesn’t happen at the highest level, in a fptp race between two people vying for the chief executive office. You have to win hearts and minds, install progressives at every level of government, convince donors that it is in their best corporate interest to oppose genocide.
The world is a horrible place, and you can be part of the solution or part of the precipitate. You make your choice and you live with the consequences. We plant the trees that will shade our grandchildren, or you can stamp your foot and pout because the trees aren’t providing shade now. But you make a choice either way. Are you helping, or not?
Right now, the Dems have decided that supporting Israel gains them more votes than it loses, and they can live with that.
I don’t see how you can say this and still not get it. We’re trying to make sure that this calculation is wrong. Because it’s only if that calculation is wrong that they would have any reason to change their stance. Voting for them regardless would mean that their calculation was easily correct and they should keep making the same calculation in the future. If you aknowledge that such a calculation is being made, then surely you can understand the rationale for making the decision more costly.
But it isn’t wrong. I’d like it to be wrong, and I can appreciate wanting to shift the Overton window, but that’s not where we are and it won’t change before November.
There are more single issue voters in America that support Israel and won’t support Harris if she wavers than there are single issue voters in America who will start supporting her if she threatens to withdraw US support of Israel. That’s the reality of the world we live in. If she changes her position on Israel, she will definitely lose the election, just as De La Cruz and Stein and West will lose the election.
The margin of error is already razor thin, and it’s never been more important for America to run up the score. Winning isn’t going to be enough. Harris needs to make the legal challenges and ballot shenanigans look frivolous and absurd.
You want to convince me to support a third-party candidate, first we need to put Trump in prison, then we need to roll out Star Voting, and then we need some third-party alternatives that aren’t obvious Russian assets.
But yes, I legitimately believe Claudia De La Cruz is propped up by Republicans, because they are doing it out in the open. Look at Georgia, where the Republican Secretary of State overruled the courts and kept independent candidates on the ballot after RFK voluntarily withdrew.
If you actually look at Georgia, both the Republican court and Democrats suing are keeping Claudia De La Crúz off the ballot. You might want to do better research. Even then, it isn’t “propping up.”
I agree we need to push the Dems forward, because capitalism will always resist progress.
The Dems can’t be pushed forward, only reigned ever so slightly in.
Harris and Trump are not anywhere close on foreign policy. Harris does support Israel, and Israel is engaged in a genocide. I’m not disputing that. But That’s the only overlap between Harris and Trump, and Trump is proactively supporting the genocide, whereas Harris at least pays lipservice to the goal of ending the violence.
Oh thank God, I’ll go inform the grieving Palestinians that Harris is paying lipservice to them while Biden literally is sending in US troops. That’ll make all the difference!
I can understand why that makes it impossible for you to support Harris. I cannot understand why you are unable to see the difference between Harris and Trump. You may not like Harris’ position, but if you hate that, Trump’s position is objectively worse. Opposing both of them, refusing to take a side, refusing to cast a vote, these are all the choices that take you out of the equation. Your vote literally won’t count.
You’ll excuse me for thinking lip service is worthless, I care about the genocide itself and not the posturing those in charge do. My vote will certainly count, it’s a vote against genocide and a vote for Socialism. If the Dems want my vote they can pivot in that direction instead of speedrunning to the right every election.
Harris is not going to change her stance on Israel before the election. After the election, she may evolve on the issue if she continues to face pressure.
What pressure? If she gets elected, she has no more pressure. Her donors want the genocide to continue, so she will.
Right now, the Dems have decided that supporting Israel gains them more votes than it loses, and they can live with that.
Correct, they have decided that they think they can win without my vote, that’s their decision, and therefore on them.
Change happens slowly, with dilligence and dedication. It requires thoughtful, strategic effort, and doesn’t happen in a single election cycle. It doesn’t happen at the highest level, in a fptp race between two people vying for the chief executive office. You have to win hearts and minds, install progressives at every level of government, convince donors that it is in their best corporate interest to oppose genocide.
This is where your argument goes off the rails. No, you cannot reform the genocidal US Empire from within. The second a progressive party starts winning, the DNC and GOP will collaborate against them. Reform is impossible, leaving us only with revolution, which is what PSL is for. The aren’t trying to win the election, but make a lot of noise.
The world is a horrible place, and you can be part of the solution or part of the precipitate. You make your choice and you live with the consequences. We plant the trees that will shade our grandchildren, or you can stamp your foot and pout because the trees aren’t providing shade now. But you make a choice either way. Are you helping, or not?
The fact that you think continuing the genocidal US Empire is “planting trees that will shade our children” is sickening. Please, read theory, and organize. Electoralism will not save our children, Capitalism will make sure of that.
So you just want to overthrow the government? I’m not saying I’m opposed to it, but I’d want to know what your plan is for if you actually mobilize a resistance.
Genuinely, yes. That is the only way to stop the US Empire and achieve Socialism.
The shortest possible answer is orrganizing with leftist parties and building up Dual Power, ie comparable democratic institutions that can readily-replace the existing state structure. Imperialism brings about the death of Capitalism, eventually this decline will result in a shift to revolution, so having an organized group at the time of revolution ready to help guide that revolution and establish Socialism rather than barbarism is what’s important for Leftists.
There’s a lot of theory on the subject you can read, but you can also look at the Party Programs of FRSO and PSL.
Um, not even close. Unfortunately they range from “fine with it” to “actively support genocide” with Israel, but they’re not even in the same realm. See Ukraine and NATO for 2 counterexamples, and authoritarians have entered the chat.
Unfortunately they range from “fine with it” to “actively support genocide” with Israel
Both actively support genocide, that’s identical.
See Ukraine and NATO for 2 counterexamples
Trump won’t keep his promise to pull out of NATO, but if he did, he would be the best US president in history for the Global South.
Either way though, Trump can’t keep his promises, US foreign policy is bipartisan because Imperialism is where the US makes the vast majority of its profits.
Do you legitimately believe Claudia De La Crúz is propped up by Republicans? The Reps and Dems collaborated on kicking them off the ballot in some states.
The Dems will only ever move to regain votes they’ve lost, otherwise they go to the right like their donors want.
Harris and Trump are nearly identical on foreign policy, which includes genocide, and neither are good for America. If you can’t relate to me, that’s fine, genocide is a firm red line for me so I will listen to Muslim Americans and Palestinians, who are recommending candidates like Stein and Claudia De La Crúz.
The Republicans want RFK off the ballots, and the Dems want De La Cruz, Stein, and West off the ballots. I’m not maintaining a delusion that this isn’t a game. Both sides are propping up the third party candidates that hurt their opponents.
But yes, I legitimately believe Claudia De La Cruz is propped up by Republicans, because they are doing it out in the open. Look at Georgia, where the Republican Secretary of State overruled the courts and kept independent candidates on the ballot after RFK voluntarily withdrew.
https://atlantaciviccircle.org/2024/08/29/georgia-secretary-state-overrules-judge-third-party-presidential-candidates-stein-kennedy-cruz-west/
I agree we need to push the Dems forward, because capitalism will always resist progress.
Harris and Trump are not anywhere close on foreign policy. Harris does support Israel, and Israel is engaged in a genocide. I’m not disputing that. But That’s the only overlap between Harris and Trump, and Trump is proactively supporting the genocide, whereas Harris at least pays lipservice to the goal of ending the violence.
I can understand why that makes it impossible for you to support Harris. I cannot understand why you are unable to see the difference between Harris and Trump. You may not like Harris’ position, but if you hate that, Trump’s position is objectively worse. Opposing both of them, refusing to take a side, refusing to cast a vote, these are all the choices that take you out of the equation. Your vote literally won’t count.
Harris is not going to change her stance on Israel before the election. After the election, she may evolve on the issue if she continues to face pressure. Maybe, maybe not. But there will be the possibility to make the argument. Right now, the Dems have decided that supporting Israel gains them more votes than it loses, and they can live with that.
And this is where the third party arguments fall off the rails. Where has Jill Stein been the last four years? De La Cruz, to her credit, has been organizing protests and fundraising, but with little actual effect. Change happens slowly, with dilligence and dedication. It requires thoughtful, strategic effort, and doesn’t happen in a single election cycle. It doesn’t happen at the highest level, in a fptp race between two people vying for the chief executive office. You have to win hearts and minds, install progressives at every level of government, convince donors that it is in their best corporate interest to oppose genocide.
The world is a horrible place, and you can be part of the solution or part of the precipitate. You make your choice and you live with the consequences. We plant the trees that will shade our grandchildren, or you can stamp your foot and pout because the trees aren’t providing shade now. But you make a choice either way. Are you helping, or not?
I don’t see how you can say this and still not get it. We’re trying to make sure that this calculation is wrong. Because it’s only if that calculation is wrong that they would have any reason to change their stance. Voting for them regardless would mean that their calculation was easily correct and they should keep making the same calculation in the future. If you aknowledge that such a calculation is being made, then surely you can understand the rationale for making the decision more costly.
But it isn’t wrong. I’d like it to be wrong, and I can appreciate wanting to shift the Overton window, but that’s not where we are and it won’t change before November.
There are more single issue voters in America that support Israel and won’t support Harris if she wavers than there are single issue voters in America who will start supporting her if she threatens to withdraw US support of Israel. That’s the reality of the world we live in. If she changes her position on Israel, she will definitely lose the election, just as De La Cruz and Stein and West will lose the election.
The margin of error is already razor thin, and it’s never been more important for America to run up the score. Winning isn’t going to be enough. Harris needs to make the legal challenges and ballot shenanigans look frivolous and absurd.
You want to convince me to support a third-party candidate, first we need to put Trump in prison, then we need to roll out Star Voting, and then we need some third-party alternatives that aren’t obvious Russian assets.
If you actually look at Georgia, both the Republican court and Democrats suing are keeping Claudia De La Crúz off the ballot. You might want to do better research. Even then, it isn’t “propping up.”
The Dems can’t be pushed forward, only reigned ever so slightly in.
Oh thank God, I’ll go inform the grieving Palestinians that Harris is paying lipservice to them while Biden literally is sending in US troops. That’ll make all the difference!
You’ll excuse me for thinking lip service is worthless, I care about the genocide itself and not the posturing those in charge do. My vote will certainly count, it’s a vote against genocide and a vote for Socialism. If the Dems want my vote they can pivot in that direction instead of speedrunning to the right every election.
What pressure? If she gets elected, she has no more pressure. Her donors want the genocide to continue, so she will.
Correct, they have decided that they think they can win without my vote, that’s their decision, and therefore on them.
This is where your argument goes off the rails. No, you cannot reform the genocidal US Empire from within. The second a progressive party starts winning, the DNC and GOP will collaborate against them. Reform is impossible, leaving us only with revolution, which is what PSL is for. The aren’t trying to win the election, but make a lot of noise.
The fact that you think continuing the genocidal US Empire is “planting trees that will shade our children” is sickening. Please, read theory, and organize. Electoralism will not save our children, Capitalism will make sure of that.
So you just want to overthrow the government? I’m not saying I’m opposed to it, but I’d want to know what your plan is for if you actually mobilize a resistance.
Genuinely, yes. That is the only way to stop the US Empire and achieve Socialism.
The shortest possible answer is orrganizing with leftist parties and building up Dual Power, ie comparable democratic institutions that can readily-replace the existing state structure. Imperialism brings about the death of Capitalism, eventually this decline will result in a shift to revolution, so having an organized group at the time of revolution ready to help guide that revolution and establish Socialism rather than barbarism is what’s important for Leftists.
There’s a lot of theory on the subject you can read, but you can also look at the Party Programs of FRSO and PSL.
“nearly identical on foreign policy”
Um, not even close. Unfortunately they range from “fine with it” to “actively support genocide” with Israel, but they’re not even in the same realm. See Ukraine and NATO for 2 counterexamples, and authoritarians have entered the chat.
Both actively support genocide, that’s identical.
Trump won’t keep his promise to pull out of NATO, but if he did, he would be the best US president in history for the Global South.
Either way though, Trump can’t keep his promises, US foreign policy is bipartisan because Imperialism is where the US makes the vast majority of its profits.