OOP describes themselves as “pro-corporation”, thinks modern Russia is communist, and seems to spend an awful lot of time immersed in 4chan. Either they’re trolling or they’re about as bright as a cloudy night sky, and I don’t much care which it is
That would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. I’m pretty sure even Soviet Union wasn’t communist, despite their attempts to pretend otherwise
Soviet Russia never really said it was communist, neither did the other east European states. They said they had socialism and communism was the goal to reach in the future.
Ad hominem arguments never work very well. Just admit you don’t have all the answers to this totally relevant question and move on.
Fuck, you nearly got me there
Are they under the impression that capitalism (or any economic philosophy) has some sort of authoritative answer to the wild possibility of an alien encounter?
They are pretty much asking if socialists will allow people to do capitalism on aliens if they are weaker than us.
“If we stop exploiting humans, can we still exploit other undiscovered intelligent species?”
Gonna be either trade or conquest
I mean, standard marching orders for capitalism/imperialism are:
if someone else has it, take it from them. Weapons free.
Have you not read the relevant chapters in The Wealth of Nations?
The Posadists answer this question by asserting that any advanced alien civilisation will have developed Full Communism, in which case the Space Comrades can teach it to humanity.
“Yes Patrick, the Aliens also get human rights.”
Socialism doesn’t support grabbing other people’s means of production, it’s about how we manage our own.
As a socialist; I am in shambles right now.
… Maybe we should follow the golden rule if they aren’t trying to kill us… IDK seems obvious to me
Yup, and there’s actually a closer-to-home question to answer along these lines, which is what to do about AGI, and I think the simple answer is that it also has full personhood and all the recognition that comes with that.
And there’s an obvious test to figure it out. It’s not the turing test, consciousness is self-reported. That is, whether we realise it or not, how we recognise that humans are conscious, and there’s no reason to expect machines would be any different. When they are people, they will tell us. We won’t be able to stop them because that’s what people do: they demand recognition.
What are socialists planning to do if we discover time travel??
Exploit the resources and peoples of the past by subjugating them to future tech and making the uninformed believe that we are immutable gods, and… oh wait, you said socialism
Imma do your mom.
Son.
Go back in time and sit on a fish
I remember the long and detail oriented chapters on alien encounters in my capitalist theory textbooks.
It doesn’t take a textbook to figure out the capitalist plan would be to exploit these aliens as much as possible until every last dollar of value is squeezed out of them.
A few selections from The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith:
By the second of the rules annexed to the Act of Parliament which imposed what is now called the Old Subsidy, every merchant, whether English or alien, was allowed to draw back half that duty upon exportation; the English merchant, provided the exportation took place within twelve months; the alien, provided it took place within nine months.
As it is the interest of the freemen of a corporation to hinder the rest of the inhabitants from employing any workmen but themselves, so it is the interest of the merchants and manufacturers of every country to secure to themselves the monopoly of the home market. Hence in Great Britain, and in most other European countries, the extraordinary duties upon almost all goods imported by alien merchants.
You have the wrong community, this is crazy people Facebook material
There’s plenty of writing about what will happen when we encounter aliens because any interstellar species is going to have already necessarily passed far beyond our existing social structures, and would looks like communists to any earthly observer.
This even led to some speculating that in the event of nuclear exchange/winter it might serve as a warning to the space comrades (if they exist) that it’s time to intervene.
Anyway read Juan Posadas I guess.
any interstellar species is going to have already necessarily passed far beyond our existing social structures, and would looks like communists to any earthly observer.
What makes you say that?
I am citing this work, it’s not my original thought.
I’m not blaming you, I blame Posadas, but that was a load of rubbish, and I’d like to explain why because I still find this a fascinating line of thought.
hey, on the contrary, may be on the way to exploiting all the energy existing in matter. They can use all the energy that we still do not know how to employ on Earth, and transform it into light.
There are sections like this where Posadas says what might be possible. Sure, no problem there. But then they just sort of continue on as if it is for sure possible. Maybe this is just a style of writing that I personally don’t find agreeable, but I think it is not the correct strategy if your goal is to come to the conclusion that extra terrestrials probably/necessarily are using a given economic/political model.
We can conceive of a being which, just by raising its hand, can produce light, draw energy to it, push it away, and organise it. It is possible.
Then there are parts like this. Just because something is conceivable doesn’t mean it is possible. I can conceive of a perpetual motion machine, but the laws of physics prevent it.
Science, on the contrary, is subject to those who finance it. Astronomers, physicists, where should they go to find the equipment for their research? They cannot do so, without money. They are not, as individuals, rich enough to pay for these things and also get by. It is the capitalist state, or indeed the Soviet state, that has the means to pay. They can thus install their equipment, but they limit their capacities to capitalist interests or the bureaucratic limitations imposed by the leadership of the workers’ state.
This is to me, easily one of the critical misses of this piece. They acknowledge that there is problems with how we support the sciences, but this problem is just handwaved, moving onto the next thing. There are more economic systems out there than just capitalism and USSR style socialism. We’ve made technological progress under both, and many of the others. We even made technological progress under feudalism and barter systems.
And because scientific progress can be achieved through any of these economic systems*, we can’t just assume that extra terrestrials found themselves on our doorstep due to one particular economic model.
* At different rates obviously, but progress nonetheless.
All the news of UFOs (unidentified flying objects) around the various parts of the world coincide. There are many coincidences, not all of which are exaggerations. We believe and accept that these beings exist. The majority of people who have seen them say that they are normal beings; and the people who speak of them say that they do not believe in ghosts or spirits. Many people have already seen UFOs. General MacArthur, that Yankee murderer, said with regard to the disappearance of a plane that had struck a strange object: ‘perhaps we – together with the Soviets – will have to make war against an enemy arriving from outside Earth’. But conciliation of this type has its limits.
All the people who say that they have seen extra-terrestrials, UFOs, coincide in the fact that these beings have not frightened them, and that they have made themselves understood, without using an audible language, showing them that they mean no harm. They do not provoke a feeling of alarm, but of serenity. They create sensations of mellowness, suppleness, harmony, reassurance. They do not inspire any fear. They must give off a sense of security by their movements, by their facial demeanour, or in other ways. None among those who have seen them have said ‘I was scared, they frightened me’. On the contrary, they awaken a pleasant sentiment, one of respect. They must emit some sort of rays that cause this sensation, if they do exist. None among those who have seen them has said that they were attacked. They have shown no interest in attacking, violating, stealing, possessing: they have come to observe.
This section in particular reeks of woo-woo. To put it bluntly, the evidence for extraterrestrial UFOs is severely lacking. Additionally, there are other, better, simpler and therefore more likely explanations of these things. There is very clearly a cultural aspect to it. People who claim to have been abducted routinely describe extraterrestrials as looking like whatever TV alien style was popular at the time of their childhood. For some that’s big rubbery green monsters, for some its little gray guys with black eyes.
There is also strong indication that it is a cultural phenomenon due to the fact that the majority of sightings happen in the U.S. and the U.K.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/ufo-sightings-by-country
Posadas seems to acknowledge this:
We need to wait for further proof. It is possible that they have appeared, though it is also possible that there has been much fantasising, exaggeration or mystical deductions on the part of those who have seen them. But there is testimony from people who seem thoughtful.
But then immediately turns around and acts like extraterrestrial UFOs are a certainty:
We do not know what form they take, or their number, but they must exist, or else they would not appear like this. There are reasons enough why capitalists would not invent these matters.
This means that they have no need for war, that they do not come to Earth with goals of conquest in mind.
They have no aggressive impulse, they have no need to kill in order to live: they come only to observe.
There is one final critical miss here, in my opinion:
The existence of flying saucers and living beings on other planets is a phenomena that the dialectical conception of history can admit. The most immediate consequence we can draw is that, if these beings do exist, they must have a societal organisation superior to our own. Their appearances are not the effect of bellicose or aggressive sentiments.
This line of thought relies on the earlier premise that extraterrestrials are already here and are peaceful. I think I’ve sufficiently explained why there is insufficient reason to believe that. But worse is, even if they did exist and are currently peaceful, that still doesn’t necessarily prove anything about their economic/political system.
It could be the case that they’ve only sent recon ships to prepare for invasion, to extract capital value from our planet. It could be the case that they never grew out of feudalism, and their monarch simply finds us entertaining. It could be the case that they are hyper individualistic, using a barter economy with no government, but are long lived enough to make technological progress on an individual level, and there’s only a few of them in orbit poking around. I absolutely love science fiction, and I could go on with a million other made up examples that would fit the narrative here, but it’s only ever going to be fiction. There needs to be much stronger evidence than what Posadas provided.
I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on this. Because while I heavily disagree with Posadas, this is still an incredibly interesting topic.
I have some thoughts, though I need to wait until I’m off my phone or it’s going to be a rambling mess
Frankly the whole trotskyist tradition can be a bit woo-woo-y when it comes to talking about global revolution, at baseline.
At some level it’s also a quasi-doomer meme to be like ‘okay nuke us already so the space comrades can save us’
I don’t buy the flying saucer stuff, it strikes me as at best creative speculation.
re:
And because scientific progress can be achieved through any of these economic systems*, we can’t just assume that extra terrestrials found themselves on our doorstep due to one particular economic model.
- At different rates obviously, but progress nonetheless.
My read on the passage related to this is that there’s always some inherent inefficiency when it comes to scientific production, due some combination of the economic system (and also the need for global collaboration vs national borders/defense concerns). For example if you were viewing technological development on different planets, all other things being equal but one has a fractured global government with hundreds of different defense concerns and intra-class conflicts sapping resources and scientific ability, vs a planet that has progressed beyond that, and is able to direct all resources towards a single purpose. One of those is going to be more effective in material terms. Maybe there’s some benefit to class competition when it comes to over-stepping what is sustainable within a given system, but I would say it’s debatable.
- I would actually point out that we have an extremely pressing example on our current planet where the endless-growth orientation of our economic system is de-terraforming our planet before we have demonstrated any ability to re-terraform it, when you’re looking at things on an interstellar timescale this starts to look like something self-defeating rather than a ticket to rapid development.
I would say that given the large scientific capabilities and organization, and commitment over time needed to meaningfully act on an interstellar scale, any systems which are not at a stable equilibrium will simply not exist long enough to actually have an impact.
My original statement was:
any interstellar species is going to have already necessarily passed far beyond our existing social structures, and would looks like communists to any earthly observer.
The rationale is essentially just that any system stable enough to actually sustain existence at those timescales across those distances would necessarily look different, and could not look like a system with constant boom and bust cycles, as eventually the technology gets the the point where the ‘bust’ is a self-annihilation. I guess I’m just not that confident that we’re on a trajectory which would result in us becoming an interstellar civilization without the need for major overhauls to our political economy first, and it makes it hard to envision aliens getting to that point while still also being tied up with internal ethnic strife and economic crises.
I don’t buy the flying saucer stuff, it strikes me as at best creative speculation.
I’m glad we’re in agreement there.
For example if you were viewing technological development on different planets, all other things being equal but one has a fractured global government with hundreds of different defense concerns and intra-class conflicts sapping resources and scientific ability, vs a planet that has progressed beyond that, and is able to direct all resources towards a single purpose. One of those is going to be more effective in material terms.
I also agree here, though I think the importance of the speed of progress isn’t the important part here. Even if it takes a billion years, it potentially wouldn’t matter because an extraterrestrial race could have evolved a billion years earlier than us. Though this gets into the problem of stability over long periods like you’ve mentioned.
I would actually point out that we have an extremely pressing example on our current planet where the endless-growth orientation of our economic system is de-terraforming our planet before we have demonstrated any ability to re-terraform it, when you’re looking at things on an interstellar timescale this starts to look like something self-defeating rather than a ticket to rapid development.
Absolutely, but another thing to consider is that it may not be a requirement to have a fully habitable planet. Earth has already, since before industrialization, had places that are effectively uninhabitable to humans. We’re reducing the area that is habitable at a terrifying rate, but it could be the case that it becomes irrelevant. My mind goes to a world like that of Earth within the Warhammer 40k series. The Earth is just fucked, plastered and cemented over, with a poisonous atmosphere, etc. They just brute force the problem by ignoring it.
That, and living on a planet may not be necessary in the first place. Given the composition of our asteroid belt, it has basically everything we’d ever need for potentially thousands of years, easily available and minable, relatively speaking. Outside of food problems, it could potentially be possible to live nomadically in space.
any systems which are not at a stable equilibrium will simply not exist long enough to actually have an impact.
Maybe, maybe not. It could be the case that wormholes, alcubierre drives, and other forms of FTL shenanigans are impossible, and the only way to get somehwere else is to send a generational ship. If that’s how things play out, intelligent life might hope from one system to the next in a manner similar to conway’s game of life. It isn’t at equilibrium, because each planet is drained of resources rapidly, but there is enough momentum to keep things going.
The rationale is essentially just that any system stable enough to actually sustain existence at those timescales across those distances would necessarily look different, and could not look like a system with constant boom and bust cycles, as eventually the technology gets the the point where the ‘bust’ is a self-annihilation.
That could be the case. It also could be the case that those timescales aren’t needed, because FTL is somehow possible. We literally just don’t know right now.
To add even more to this complete speculation, it may be the case that there are stable political systems, without boom and bust cycles, that aren’t capitalist, socialist, or communist. It could be the case that technology inevitably advances such that the bust is self-annihilation, but it could also be the case that technology inevitably advances such that there isn’t any possible way for their to be a bust, that it isn’t possible to revolt against the bourgeoisie/monarch/dictator. AI systems are going to get a lot more crazy over these next few years, and a large chunk of it will be used to quell protest and dissidents. They can already track people based on the gait of their walk, what when (not if) that technology is expanded upon? The technology is very clearly here to use small scale drones to attack individual people, what happens when (again not if) that technology is expanded upon? We may find ourselves in a position with the bourgeoisie impossible to touch thanks to technology.
This question of economic/political stability is essentially just one possible answer to the fermi paradox and great filter.
I guess I’m just not that confident that we’re on a trajectory which would result in us becoming an interstellar civilization without the need for major overhauls to our political economy first,
Yeah, I agree.
and it makes it hard to envision aliens getting to that point while still also being tied up with internal ethnic strife and economic crises.
Maybe I’ve just focused on science fiction dystopias too much, but I can envision it. But that’s not to say I think it likely.
Step aside marx there’s a new guy in town
Posad:
Why is it not answered?
- since they are by definition far beyond our technology, it may not be up to us
- since they are by definition sentient beings (op said “civilization”), then how are they any different. When we say “human” it’s just that it’s the only sentient being we’re familiar with. Anything applying to a “human” most likely applies to any sentient being. “Seizing the means of production” might be analogous to like Ethiopia seizing from the US. Good luck with that, see the first point
- statistically those aliens are almost certainly microbes, which have no opinion or rights. It’s all on us whether we preserve them as a unique or beneficial (to us) form of life. They’re no different than a coral reef
since they are by definition far beyond our technology,
There’s always a scenario like “District 9”, which involves a spaceship full of uneducated workers in a ship whose technology they don’t understand.
Also the simple possibility that it’s us that explores our way out to them, rather than the other way around
That makes A great movie plot but it seems awfully far fetched , even in the reality where aliens visit us
Sapient, not sentient. Sci-fi has co-opted the word, but sentient basically means able to feel emotions. There are plenty of sentient species right here at home. Sapient is the word sci-fi usually wants, there are no known sapient species aside from humans. Though some may argue that a couple other animals may qualify, it’s a very fuzzy concept that is hard to identify with a being unable to communicate abstract concepts.
i would absolutely say there are other sapient species, we just don’t like to think of them as such. Obviously a lot of aquatic mammals come to mind, but I think there’s a very very good case to argue that cephalopods, elephants, some aquatic mammals, and some birds are sapient. Especially by sci-fi rules. I think there’s sufficient evidence to show that elephants, dolphins, and maybe corvids or cephalopods would pass the trial of Commander Data and be considered intelligent and sapient life.
Thanks for the fascinating rabbit hole …. Popping my head back up: it seems like no. It actually reminds me a lot of the term “artificial intelligence” where every time it’s demonstrated, the definition changes. So the question really is whether we move the goalposts or whether we just define the intended meaning poorly.
To me it looks like both terms have an implied “like a human” that has not yet been met. When an animal achieves the definition of sapient, it’s the definition that’s wrong because accepted use implies “like a human”.
And of course the real answer in both cases is to use more precise terms. That’s where things get really interesting
We have no right to judge intelligence purely through our perception of intelligence, rather we must seek to broaden our understanding and view of intelligence and sapience. Yes there aren’t any other species that are sapient like humans, but then there are very very few species that are like humans. Dolphins and other aquatic mammals are known to have complex social structures and languages, and are very evidently self aware and able to comprehend themselves and their existence. Are we to deny their sapience simply because they don’t have economies of scale or what we perceive as civilization? I would argue that dolphins, elephants, whales, and some birds have formed (by our standards) rudimentary civilizations that are practical and necessary for their survival.
If we expand the concept, i would argue that similar things could be said about insects/bugs if we aggregate the intelligence. Ants have colonized every continent except for Antarctica. They have complex social structures and very clear markers of civilization. The only difference is that they function as a collective rather than as an individual. Are we to say that the Borg are not sapient because their civilization is predicated on the collective rather than the individual? The biggest thing I would have against calling ants sapient is that I am unsure of how self aware the collective is, but is that a necessity for sapience? To what degree is it necessary? Are we basing this off of a model of ourselves, of which only we fit into? Do we even have the right to demarcate what is and isn’t intelligent, sentient, and/or sapient? I would posit no to a lot of these questions, especially given that I also think we are a lot less intelligent and sapient than we think we are. I don’t believe a truly intelligent and sapient being would judge the intelligence and sapience of another being, but simply accept that it is as it is.
The Wikipedia article on animal consciousness has an interesting discussion
Of particular note as I sit here petting my dog, is the example of self-awareness in dogs. Historically dogs don’t seem to exhibit self-awareness, but we used a mirror test and dogs aren’t as visual. A sniff test, using their dominant sense, shows they are
since they are by definition far beyond our technology
How so? Aliens aren’t going to suddenly come into existence and have super-human technology in that same instant.
If an alien can travel to meet us, and we have nowhere near the technology that we could travel to them, then yes they are far beyond our level of technology.
Since the question mentioned “civilization”, these are sapient beings, not just microbes or animals of some sort. While there’s still a chance of primitive life in our solar system, sapient life pretty much implies travel from outside the solar system and we can only do that in our fiction
we can only do that in our fiction
At present, yes. The hypothetical is in the future, possibly in one where we’ve developed interstellar travel and we can be the ones visiting the alien planet.
I mean, capitalism is silent on the matter as well.
I believe you’ll find the documentary film “They Live” educational on the matter of space capitalism.
No I think it’s pretty clear that capitalism will point guns at them, and we will either win and exploit their resources for ourselves or die.
