Khelif and another boxer, featherweight Lin Yu-Ting of Chinese Taipei, have been fighting under a cloud in France after the Algerian’s opening victory over Angela Carini, who quit after 46 seconds.
1, trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.
2, of all the fucking countries to suspect of “cheating” by fielding a trans woman, ALGERIA‽
What I’m going to say has nothing to do with the Algerian boxer, she was born a woman and if we started banning athletes from the Olympics whose rare genetics gave them an advantage, there’d be no reason to watch.
trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.
That is objectively false for combat sports. Blockers do not reverse the years of effects that testosterone has on their bodies development, such as skeletal structure and bone density.
I don’t understand this insistence on denying reality for the very niche topic of trans women competing in combat sports, it is dangerous.
If you don’t believe me, go listen to the interviews of female MMA fighters who Fallon Fox destroyed, and I’m talking like fractured skulls.
I’ll preface this with saying I am a contract absolutionist and the boxers in question qualified according to the IOC rules so I 100% support their participation and/or wins. I do want to point out:
Neither of these 2 are trans. They are DSD. Born and raised female their entire lives.
While I agree there are some long term developmental advantages that androgen blockers do not mitigate as far as I can tell all actual Trans athletes that previously qualified failed to do so after taking any requisite blocker regimen which, inconclusively FTR, strongly suggests they do mitigate most of the key advantages here.
That said, I do not agree with the IOC (and/or the relevant preceding governing bodies) being so inclusive for the female competition categories. But for a dysfunction in typical fetal development she would have been AMAB and squeaking into eligibility on a technicality is just a bad look any way you objectively look at it.
Prevalence of AIS in the population: 0.006%
Prevalence of Medallists in the Woman’s Welterweight category: 33%
While scientifically inconclusive this statistic supports the need for further hypothesis testing lest 49.994% of the population be relegated obsolete.
I’m aware that the Olympic boxer has DSD, and that it’s prevalent in an outsized portion of female combat sports athletes. I’m still of the opinion that they should not be discriminated against for using their genetic condition to their advantage in becoming a world class athlete. I see this as no different from how Michael Phelps has a condition where he produces a lot less lactic acid.
If you were implying that the Olympics should start genetic testing of athletes and screening them for these types of conditions, I am entirely against that, see my previous response.
Did you miss the part where I was very clearly and specifically talking about the case of trans women combat sports athletes? Those who had male levels of testosterone during their body’s development and who then transitioned.
This is a very niche subject, but for some reason people like the user I was responding to, insist on pretending that puberty as a male doesn’t matter if the adult athlete is on blockers, and that it does not give them an advantage in a combat sport. I’m not so much concerned about the advantage itself, as I am about the inherent danger to the other participants.
Striking blows from a musculature developed in male levels of testosterone, present an outsized risk of death, or permanent injury, to a female fighter/boxer. A risk that is significantly higher than the normal risks associated with combat sports.
No, I cited a very specific and highly relevant scientific rationale, and then followed up with an example of what happens when you choose to ignore that reality for the sake of, whatever it is you believe you’re doing.
Combat sports are combat sports…MMA, boxing, etc., they’re COMBAT sports.
But I can tell from your ignoring the scientific reality of the situation, and choosing instead to call me a discriminatory fuckwad, that you’re someone who should be taken seriously. Clearly I’m not up to that task…
Even in a section of internet that is massively pro lgbtq, you’re being down voted for saying such utterly ignorant things.
Muscle mass completely aside, men are designed to punch better than women. The hips, arm length, and size of their hands are all better for combat sports and hormone treatment doesn’t take any of that away.
You don’t sound pro Trans so much as you sound anti cis. Like you just hate most of the population.
I know nothing of this boxer, but a Trans boxer would have several advantages outside of hormone levels. Physically, males are much better suited for boxing than females. They have larger hearts, lungs, longer arms, bigger hands, and hips more in line to directly send power from punching and keep in balance. Muscle and mass aside, men are better suited at punching, and those advantages don’t go away with hormone blockers.
As to hormone therapy, do you think a professional m2f Trans athlete is going to be taking enough blockers to be towards the lower end of female testosterone, or taking just enough to be in the high end? This is a completely separate argument from the first point I’ve made, but im just curious as to why you would assume it nullifies all the testosterone. You have to have some in order to live. Your bones will go to shit, your heart won’t work right, and you won’t be able to make enough blood cells. Along with muscle loss, fatigue, and other issues. Hormone therapy will not take you down to 0 testosterone.
The claim is not that she is taking hormone blockers, and not that whatever condition she may have is known to the Algerian government or even to herself.
1, trans women are actually at a competitive disadvantage since hormone blockers also nullify the low levels of Testosterone that women produce naturally.
2, of all the fucking countries to suspect of “cheating” by fielding a trans woman, ALGERIA‽
Good points. And everyone should always upvote proper use of an interrobang.
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I always downvote it.
What I’m going to say has nothing to do with the Algerian boxer, she was born a woman and if we started banning athletes from the Olympics whose rare genetics gave them an advantage, there’d be no reason to watch.
That is objectively false for combat sports. Blockers do not reverse the years of effects that testosterone has on their bodies development, such as skeletal structure and bone density.
I don’t understand this insistence on denying reality for the very niche topic of trans women competing in combat sports, it is dangerous.
If you don’t believe me, go listen to the interviews of female MMA fighters who Fallon Fox destroyed, and I’m talking like fractured skulls.
I’ll preface this with saying I am a contract absolutionist and the boxers in question qualified according to the IOC rules so I 100% support their participation and/or wins. I do want to point out:
Neither of these 2 are trans. They are DSD. Born and raised female their entire lives.
While I agree there are some long term developmental advantages that androgen blockers do not mitigate as far as I can tell all actual Trans athletes that previously qualified failed to do so after taking any requisite blocker regimen which, inconclusively FTR, strongly suggests they do mitigate most of the key advantages here.
That said, I do not agree with the IOC (and/or the relevant preceding governing bodies) being so inclusive for the female competition categories. But for a dysfunction in typical fetal development she would have been AMAB and squeaking into eligibility on a technicality is just a bad look any way you objectively look at it.
Prevalence of AIS in the population: 0.006%
Prevalence of Medallists in the Woman’s Welterweight category: 33%
While scientifically inconclusive this statistic supports the need for further hypothesis testing lest 49.994% of the population be relegated obsolete.
I’m aware that the Olympic boxer has DSD, and that it’s prevalent in an outsized portion of female combat sports athletes. I’m still of the opinion that they should not be discriminated against for using their genetic condition to their advantage in becoming a world class athlete. I see this as no different from how Michael Phelps has a condition where he produces a lot less lactic acid.
If you were implying that the Olympics should start genetic testing of athletes and screening them for these types of conditions, I am entirely against that, see my previous response.
Did you miss the part where I was very clearly and specifically talking about the case of trans women combat sports athletes? Those who had male levels of testosterone during their body’s development and who then transitioned.
This is a very niche subject, but for some reason people like the user I was responding to, insist on pretending that puberty as a male doesn’t matter if the adult athlete is on blockers, and that it does not give them an advantage in a combat sport. I’m not so much concerned about the advantage itself, as I am about the inherent danger to the other participants.
Striking blows from a musculature developed in male levels of testosterone, present an outsized risk of death, or permanent injury, to a female fighter/boxer. A risk that is significantly higher than the normal risks associated with combat sports.
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No, I cited a very specific and highly relevant scientific rationale, and then followed up with an example of what happens when you choose to ignore that reality for the sake of, whatever it is you believe you’re doing.
Combat sports are combat sports…MMA, boxing, etc., they’re COMBAT sports.
But I can tell from your ignoring the scientific reality of the situation, and choosing instead to call me a discriminatory fuckwad, that you’re someone who should be taken seriously. Clearly I’m not up to that task…
Even in a section of internet that is massively pro lgbtq, you’re being down voted for saying such utterly ignorant things.
Muscle mass completely aside, men are designed to punch better than women. The hips, arm length, and size of their hands are all better for combat sports and hormone treatment doesn’t take any of that away.
You don’t sound pro Trans so much as you sound anti cis. Like you just hate most of the population.
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Removed by mod
I know nothing of this boxer, but a Trans boxer would have several advantages outside of hormone levels. Physically, males are much better suited for boxing than females. They have larger hearts, lungs, longer arms, bigger hands, and hips more in line to directly send power from punching and keep in balance. Muscle and mass aside, men are better suited at punching, and those advantages don’t go away with hormone blockers.
As to hormone therapy, do you think a professional m2f Trans athlete is going to be taking enough blockers to be towards the lower end of female testosterone, or taking just enough to be in the high end? This is a completely separate argument from the first point I’ve made, but im just curious as to why you would assume it nullifies all the testosterone. You have to have some in order to live. Your bones will go to shit, your heart won’t work right, and you won’t be able to make enough blood cells. Along with muscle loss, fatigue, and other issues. Hormone therapy will not take you down to 0 testosterone.
The claim is not that she is taking hormone blockers, and not that whatever condition she may have is known to the Algerian government or even to herself.
Bro please just fucking stop being such an insistent dumbass.