My opinion is that sex work should be legal. It would enable involuntary virgins to get a good sex experience for payment; they will be guaranteed a good sex experience with a sex worker: no harassment, good education, and a fun time.
Sex work gets shamed by people puritans because of payment for sex and it’s “sinful”; yet these same persons puritans get and have sex for free out of “passion” or marriage; they also discriminate against minorities in sec.
EDIT: Apparently there is an implied difference between sex work and prostitution. I mean sex work.
EDIT 2: I messed up the writing of my post. My real opinion is located in this comment:
Oof. I didn’t realize there was way more exploitation than just sex traffickers. It totally makes sense though; sex trades are a product of capitalist exploitation and the existence of private property. (Naturally under communism, the prevalence of sex trades would be heavily reduced.)
It seems like I couldn’t communicate my ideas properly beforehand. I don’t want people in the sex trade to be criminalized; I want pimps and johns to be criminalized.
Only a few hours ago: I wanted to support a sex trade industry that didn’t involve rapes or rely on economic coercion. I just wanted disabled people, who keep getting discriminated out of sex,[1][2][3] to be able to feel better about their lives; a lack of sex can cause mental health issues in some people (even though this shouldn’t happen). (However, having sex probably won’t fix the issue, it will just hide the problems until later). Now I feel like shit…
Countries where sex work is legal and regulated (Holland, Germany, Canada, Australia…) all registered sensible drops in human traffic, venereal disease spreading and rapes.</br> People sell their bodies for food or money since the dawn of time and always will, like it or not. Keeping it illegal only favors criminal organizations and fodders a culture in which people are not allowed to do what they want with their own body, whether it is selling it, changing it or whatever. </br> Edit: added links to studies made by people smarter than me.
fucked up that arguments being made here is for the buyer rather than the worker/slave.
elaborate?
Locking this thread as result of the situation here from some users.
It’s no less moral than selling your labor in other ways, hell, it’s less harmful to the self than some other forms of labor.
Capitalism makes all labor morally grey to say the least, most of us work because we have to, engaged in jobs and environments we’d prefer not to be in.
My take is, for labor to be moral(I’m not taliking about personal morality, but systemic) our essentials need to be well covered regardless of our work, and the people need systemic assistance moving from one field to another, so that what ever labor one is engaged in doesn’t feel like their only choice of participation.
I don’t know where sex work fits into my utopia, but I do know I’d prefer, I’m general, that people are only engaged in what they want to engage in.
My opinion is that sex work should be legal.
Yay.
It would enable involuntary virgins to get a good sex experience for payment;
Oh dear…
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under capitalism yes, but should be outlawed under socialism. There is no need for it without a system that coerces women or men to sell their bodies to make payments.
(I’m playing a little devil’s advocate here, but I like interacting with people that have a point). I agree that in an idealistic state, no one should be forced to sell their body to pay rent, but let’s look at the argument the other way: what about people that their only way to get sex is to pay for it? You probably are a good looking and/or sociable person, and that’s why the problem never occurred to you, but there are many people out there for whom is really hard (if not completely impossible) to have sexual experiences, just because of how they look or because they have serious difficulties interacting with other human beings. What about them?
I have considered the social viewpoint a bit, and this is my response:
You probably are a good looking and/or sociable person, and that’s why the problem never occurred to you, but there are many people out there for whom is really hard (if not completely impossible) to have sexual experiences, just because of how they look or because they have serious difficulties interacting with other human beings. What about them?
I am flattered, but I am not that good looking or very sociable (although I find myself tugged into social situations quite frequently, but more of a kidnapped-mostly-introverted-person situation). Although I still generalized such problems as “improve yourself”. In a more collective society such interactions would be far more likely, an example of such occurrences would be things like this. setting aside all other aspects of the GDR (as the situations of such are nigh impossible to repeat), it was an example of a collective society, and had far more and better sex than that of hyper-individualist societies. Of course this does not solve the problem of all, it gives some assurance (I guess?).
But I don’t think prostitution would have to be an answer to such problems. Sex robots are far more ethical and accessible than prostitution (of course it would have to be some years from now most likely). Under Capitalism I guess they could use the service, but as any other, it would be unethical consumption.
Thats all I got for now.
Sex robots are far more ethical and accessible than prostitution (of course it would have to be some years from now most likely).
As a technologist I feel obligated to point out that this is far more accessible than most people realize. When people think of sex robots they imagine blowup dolls and the evolution of that. There’s certainly sex androids and progress is being made in that avenue, however it is still probably like fucking a dead body for most people. The uncanny valley is too large.
However, if you mix VR with deep fakes and advanced dildonics you could create a very realistic and satisfying experience with current technology. Just sayin’…
You people should really respect sex.
huh?
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you are ignoring the coercion that places most of these people to turn to prostituting their bodies to be playthings. That’s what they are in that job, sexual servitors. Sex work could be freedom for some well off people , but frankly I don’t care about the well off ones. Painters and musicians create art, art that has been observed and created since the dawn of humankinds ability to create anything. Prostitution originated as a way for some to buy food for their families, not as a way to “have fun”. Whenever society is developing and exploding, you find rise in beautiful art and music, when the opposite happens, you find increases of prostitution. You cannot equate the two.
I am not trying to restrict guys, gals, and non-binary pals. Under capitalism it would be easier (and better) to get legislation to help these people by legalizing and protecting them, granting them some semblance of safety (rare in a capitalist system). Socialism will erase the need for selling one’s body at all, reducing them to random few that would also wither away, as society collectivizes enough for them to not have to do exchanges to be objectified. This is my analysis. please critique where you see fit, I want to develop it.
This 100%. Thank you thank you thank you. I’m a guy who used to do SW and I’ve met/befriended tons of women who do SW over the years-- after having countless conversations with them, I’m inclined to agree with your assessment. You actually get it, unlike so many people who I’d like to think are just misguided in their understanding of SW, or lack thereof.
I gotta ask, do you know any sex workers? Are you a man? I’m a guy but I used to do SW and in that process I met tons of women who are SWs and I think most of them would roll their eyes so hard at your comment and the sources you provided.
You’re sort of cherry-picking articles and are ignorant of the other side of SW-- the side most SWs would understandably feel far too uncomfortable explaining to the media, but far more comfortable explaining in a more private context.
I don’t have the energy right now to thoroughly explain why your view on this is so far off the mark but just… yeah. You really don’t understand it and by your logic, I could easily cherry pick articles where people claim they love working at Wal-Mart and how it allows them to express themselves.
I feel like there’s a LOT of privileged people on the left who can’t wrap their heads around the difference between a person selling their body to Amazon to pack boxes, versus a sex worker selling their body to (almost always) some guy. Go look up statistics on how common sexual assault is among women who do sex work, versus say women working at Amazon.
Don’t be one of those people who thinks the sex worker and Amazon worker are both selling their bodies, therefore there are no major difference between what each party has to deal with.
I really don’t want to talk about this topic anymore but yeah, I wish there was some fast-track way for me to help you understand why you’re wrong on this. I’ve met plenty of people who mistakenly but genuinely believe the average SW enjoys her job and it’s so far off the mark. If we were in a voice call I don’t think I’d mind taking more time to explain this but that being said, the topic and discussion does exhaust me because I’ve had this conversation with so many people in the past, although thankfully I’ve changed a decent amount of peoples’ opinions on this.
Sex work is work. Not only should sex work be legal but sex workers need to build a strong union. By claiming that “paying for sex is rape” you are completely disregarding the needs and wants of sex workers. This mentality often leads to laws that often make sex work much less safe for the workers and their clients.
Wait, is there a difference between sex work and prostitution?
Generally speaking, the term “prostitute” involves that the subject is exploited, while a “sex worker” is doing it by their own free will.
sorry, it slipped, edited :)
Oh. I should have used sex worker then. My ba.d
No one should get control over someone else’s body without true consent. Taking money as a bribe does not equal consent. Getting laid should take some effort. Putting money on the table doesn’t count as effort.
The thing is that mind and body can’t be divided, at least in the long run. Abuse to someone’s body is abuse to someone’s mind. There is always the risk that people abuse their “right” they “earned” with their dirty money.
It’s not the same as rape, but sex without sympathy is mentally unhealthy.
However, paying money to just talk to someone is more acceptable, albeit not necessary in an ideal world.
Your logic can be extended to all type of work. Destroying your health in a mine for a salary has similar conesequence. And for that reason sex work is just work and should be treated and legislated as such.
Btw, I don’t see why getting laid should requiere effort, seems like an unnecessary value judgment.
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I love that this forum is all about leftist this and that. But when the topic is about women bodies, comments goes full puritan & conservative.
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I think sex is different than roofing a house
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Do you want to explain what in particular is different in a way that detracts from their point? There are a bunch of possible reasons and it’s not clear which you’re implying.
I found this in my notifs but I literally cannot find the context sorry
Comparing sex work to any other form of work is a common error in thinking and indicates a lack of understanding for “the victim’s” point of view.
Sex work is just not the same, so it has to be treated special since it concerns a human’s (mainly woman’s) physical integrity & their most intimate parts. I can’t imagine that one can separate the body from the mind so clearly here, making the workers more vulnerable than in any other field of work. It’s all they have & they’re selling it. Please be more sensitive in that regard and show some respect for people’s private spheres.
90% of the incels I hear from are raging misogynists who vehemently hate women for their ability to withhold a “resource” for money. Combine that with the low social status of sex work (which is not fixable with legislation) and you are just offering these women up to be murdered (which is already the case).
There are a few things legalization of sex work does fix.
- once it’s much easier to access legal adult prostitutes, child prostitutes become significantly less desirable to those that might otherwise seek them out.
- you can try to weight things in the prostitute’s favor by enacting rules that make brothels and pimping a lot harder (although you still need to have a good way for them to hire their own security).
- It’s easier for prostitutes to seek justice from abusive johns if their side of things is perfectly legal.
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I mean this was kinda what I meant by weighting things in favor of the prostitutes. The whole theme of my comment in general was that they’re getting hurt one way or another, but they’re getting hurt way less overall if they’re at least allowed to do it on the public record in a lot of ways.
FOSTA-SESTA
what are these acts? I have not heard of them. And fuck whoever enacted them, if it causes the workers to put themselves into such danger for no reason then it is an immoral law.
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my god conservatives at it again at making the problem fucking worse by making sure they can pretend it isn’t there, when it is.
Don’t forget about the
SORMASUGMA (BALLS) act…
weird though, you’d think incels would like prostitutes, they aren’t going to get any sex otherwise
Right? lol
under capitalism, legalization and government protection combined with a workers co-op is probably the best they can do
holy shit
This is the 7th most-commented post on lemmy.ml
What the heckorinos.
Still more civil than mainstream media.
I started a war
Yep. My dumbassery knows no bounds. This tends to happen when I try to write an opinion: I start writing; them think I properly communicated my opinion (when I actually haven’t). It usually takes me some hours to realize that.
They can try. Don’t know if these involuntary virgins will get way to fuck even paying for it.
A product of capitalism
So other systems didn’t have sex work? Feaudalism, theocracy, autocracy, none of them had sex work? This developed only once competitive businesses in the Victorian era began trading?
A more apt description would be a product of extreme needs scarcity
So you’re suggesting prostitution has mostly dried up since scarcity dried up in Europe? Or that prostitution used to be much more common back when people starved to death?
Ancient Romans had them too. Capitalism bad but it’s not always the cause, merely an antagonist in this case. Boogeymanning isn’t constructive.
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How much would you charge a man to have sex with you so you could pay for rent/food? Are you aware that sex work comes with damn near zero legal protections, no insurance benefits, no job security, tons of health risks and so on?
Just because the guy working at Wal-Mart has been working there for a decade, that does not at all mean he enjoys his job. The same goes with sex workers who have to go through all kinds of physical, mental and emotional abuse in their line of work that go beyond what the guy at Wal-Mart has to deal with.
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Oh great, so you’re unwilling to have a serious conversation about a serious topic. Sounds like the typical privileged person.
Do the under privileged pay for sex work?
if you want it from someone, you at least have to pay quite a lot for such a service. They deserve respect and lots of cash.
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Funny, I’m pretty sure the going rate for a SW in the USA is $300/hour. But sure, keep on sharing your painfully ignorant views.
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I gotta ask, does leftism in your opinion not include the ability to seriously discuss issues like sex work? Because right now you just sound like a manchild who just can’t help but make lame ass jokes.
Seems to me SWs can charge a lot, and your ignorant ass just can’t wrap your head around what exactly sex work involves. People like you honestly creep me out-- seemingly incapable of having an adult conversation but still desperately wanting to be a part of it.
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Manchild confirmed, got it. Blocking you now, so tired of these faux-leftist clowns.
my god you are just an useless manchild aren’t you? Get out of the basement, mom’s calling for dinner
Prostitution is rape.
"But this woman who wouldn’t be able to afford rent or food if it weren’t for the money I give her said she loves having sex with me! She couldn’t possibly be lying to protect herself and boost my ego!"
I was thinking of consensual sex work (sex work that is not done by neccessity, but by people who want to do sex work); but I agree with you that sex trafficking is rape.
There is nothing consensual about having to sell your body to make a living
People sell their bodies everyday to make excel spreadsheets for 10 hours straight under fluorescent lights in a cubicle that’s smaller than my bathroom or work in factories where they risk their safety because of old machineries, chemicals and hazardous environments in general. How all of this is considered better than having sex with someone in a controlled environment, where people get checked for deseases before going in, where security guards can keep you safe against violent clients and where you get to pay taxes and work for a pension?
Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person’s consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority, or against a person who is incapable of giving valid consent.
You have no problem understanding the lack of agency of the worker in their workplace. you just don’t want to call it rape because it makes you uncomfortable.
You know, I used to work for this big company that exploited me like a slave (making excel spreadsheets for 10 hours straight under fluorescent lights in a cubicle that’s smaller than my bathroom, as a matter of fact).</br> I called that job “rape” everyday for three years and when I quit I had no problem telling that straight to my employer’s face.</br> I’m doing the exact same job self-employed now, do I still call it “rape”? Of course not, because now I’m in control of how I do it and there’s no more exploitation…</br> And I think it should be the same for sex workers, but as long as there’s no legalization and regulation it cannot happen.
You can call your job whatever you want. But unlike prostitution it’s not literal rape. What makes your job exploitative is not the working conditions or the size of the company, it’s the necessity to sell your labor to get your means of subsistence. You had no choice but to keep working because you would starve and freeze to death if you didn’t. That’s why I quoted the literal definition of rape. Prostitution is literally rape.
So nothing we do, as a species, is consensual?
that still applies, nothing about any of this work is consensual, because they cannot change anything about their situation, even though it is horrible, and must keep doing it in order to live. You are right about it being legal under capitalism though.
I don’t like to put it in a socialist vs. capitalist context, I think it is stretching the topic a little bit. I prefer talking about the individual: I don’t think that every people has it’s “dream job”. Sure some people wish to be doctors, lawyers and other professions, but a lot of other people don’t. So in this latter cases, how is it that prostitution in a regulated environment is worse than anything else?
I see prostitution as it is a product of capitalism. Most of those people do want to become scientists, discovering new things, writers, or something more than basically the toy of the dollar. Many countries were able to eliminate prostitution entirely after eliminating the harmful requirements for people to use it. If it is still wanted post capitalism, then something can be worked out, or they can just have sex with random people like they would anyway if they were a prostitute.
Most of those people do want to become scientists, discovering new things, writers, or something more than basically the toy of the dollar
Of course, but the same principle can be applied to people that work retail or pull a lever in a production chain. Of course prostitution is a product of capitalism, but the same is true for every job. I agree with you that capitalism generates exploitment of people, but that’s the focal part I think we should focus on to make the discussion go further and not making it sterile in the end: TLDR is the exploitment of any kind of work wrong or just prostitution in particular? IMHO it’s the first one…
There is nothing consensual about having to sell your body to make a living
What if both parties (including the sex worker themself) agree and consent to sex? Is that not consensual?
no work is consensual under capitalism, especially sex work
Nobody gives a fuck.
