• HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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    5 days ago

    If you want to convince people to become vegan,–or even vegetarian–you need to be inviting to them. The same goes for any political or religious movement; if you actively alienate people and tell them that they aren’t welcome before they can even try to join, then they likely never will.

    I was a Mormon missionary. Yeah, it’s a cult. And you know how they recruited new cult members? By being extra loving and kind to people that were considering joining (and also hiding the really weird shit, like how they believe they eventually become gods themselves). It’s called “love bombing”. Mormons are absolutely, 100% convinced that they have the only correct religion, and that all other religions are false. But they will be your best friend ever while they’re trying to lure you in.

    Vegans could learn from this.

    • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 days ago

      Do me a favour: Construct a form of activism so good it turns you vegan, then tell us about it.

      Otherwise whatever ideas you have don’t seem to actually work on you either huh?

      • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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        4 days ago

        Start by not making it appear to be activism.

        Start by presenting options that are as appealing as options that have animal products and cost less than animal products. Make equivalents that have similar flavors and textures so that people aren’t experiencing a significant shift when they’re eating, because food is often very emotional for people. (…Which you demonstrate so aptly in your activism against animals as food; it’s an emotional issue for you, even if it has intellectual aspects.) You need to create conditions such that people can eat less meat, and titer down their consumption, without attempting to shame them while they reduce their consumption.

        There’s a restaurant in Atlanta that I highly recommend called La Semilla; they do Cuban food, and the entire restaurant is vegan. They understand that if you want most people to even consider being vegan, they have to be presented with food that looks, smells, and tastes appealing, and it must be presented in a welcoming atmosphere. They aren’t loud or angry in their message; they’re doing good food and being a good example. Every meal that a non-vegan eats there is one less meal made with animal products, and that, sir, is progress. And it’s more progress than they’d see if they told everyone that wasn’t already a vegan to fuck off and get the fuck out of their restaurant.

        • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          4 days ago

          This is the most reddit thing I’ve read this year.

          “Sir” lmfao.

          Apparently you’ve been exposed to some restaurant that didn’t make you vegan so we should all do that which will continue not making people vegan.

          That’ll save the billions and billions of innocent earthlings! Good job, you selfish, lazy, arrogant cretin. I’m so glad the world is full of people who will change when it requires no effort!

          • Napdyn@lemmy.world
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            4 days ago

            Earthlings lol Also didn’t you use “sir” in another comment on this post? Take your fingers off your keyboard thanks.

            • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              4 days ago

              Yes earthings, we are all the earthlings. We come from earth, we share a common heritage.

              Cite me if I did you shiver looking for a spine to run up.

              • Napdyn@lemmy.world
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                3 days ago

                What have you got against shivers? You shiverist

                Also, are plants earthlings too?

            • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              4 days ago

              Every year around a trillion sentient beings live and die in horror. This happens in the vast majority of cases because people want to feel slightly more pleasure than they think they would feel if they ate beans.

              Each one of these lives is a unique and beautiful thing, no more or less special than you or I. A brilliant, shining negation of the vast empty silence of the universe.

              But chucklefuck here is more concerned about convenience than morality.

              That’s my problem.

              • yuri@pawb.social
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                hey you just spoke your truth and people are downvoting you and i just want to say that’s fucked up. i asked a question and you clearly put thought and effort into your response. i mean you called the guy a chucklefuck, but tbh that’s a silly enough insult as to be taken entirely in jest, no prob.

                idk it just feels like you’re being needlessly dunked on, this is the stupidest aspect of internet discourse.

                • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  4 days ago

                  Lol it doesn’t matter. Do gooder derogation is a well studied phenomena. It’s generally more important to people to protect their image of themselves as a good person than to actually be one by their own values.

                  We’ve all gotten frustrated at that person trying to get us to use guppy bags to filter plastics from clothing in the wash, or who was an early mover on reusable bags or whatever. Shit a lot of people probably simultaneously hate on people that leave dog poo behind while also having not gone back to pick up after their pets that time they left bags at home.

                  Almost everyone loves animals and hates people that hurt them for pleasure, but then goes and hurts them for pleasure. That’s a fucking painful truth, it sucks to realise you’re not fundamentally different from some horrible trophy hunter or whatever. It hurts to realise that the chicken you’re eating has emotions just as vivid and real as that dog you love to pat on your walk to the bus stop.

                  Much easier to just hate on the people doing something different than to acknowledge it’s not too difficult to change and having to look deep into yourself and ask some hard questions. Invent a cartoon where they’re all self righteous do-gooders, probably rich and privileged with no notion of the real world. Then why listen? they are the enemy and the enemy is wrong.

                  The truth is we all have blood on our hands, almost nobody was done the service of being raised vegan. I’ve loaded chickens up on a truck and sent them off to die thirsty and confused myself. We’re just the ones that chose to stop killing, because some fucking hero spent their energy and sanity making sure we couldn’t look away from the horror.

                  Sorry if our jokes are too acerbic for you, but absolutely nobody is making carnist come in to a circlejerk and make arses of themselves because they found a fragment of the fragment of the world that doesn’t cater to them.

          • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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            4 days ago

            Every meal that a non-vegan eats there is one less meal made with animal products

            Missed that part, did we?

            • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              4 days ago

              That will surely save them all!

              you don’t get it do you? You aren’t even vegan and you think you know how to do it all. You are so selfish and self absorbed, their lives aren’t real to you.

              • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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                3 days ago

                I think I know marketing better than you, yes. Because that’s the industry that I work in. Marketing is all about persuasion, and bluntly, vegans like you do a really shitty job at marketing the idea of being vegan, and a shitty job of persuading people to be vegan. Shame and guilt don’t sell a product or an idea; they cause resentment.

                You’re acting like the Westboro Baptist Church; you’re telling everyone that isn’t already in your group how awful they are, and using the most offensive terms you can come up with to do so. Just like the WBC, you’re absolutely convinced that your way is the only morally correct way. But you aren’t actually bringing people to your moral cause; you’re pushing them away. If you want to push people away so that you can feel self-righteous, then sure, keep doing what you’re doing.

                …But if you want to persuade people, if you actually want people to change, then maybe look into what actually works.

            • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              4 days ago

              Yeah, the carnists really crawl out of the woodwork broadcasting their disregard of rules, norms, and context in order to try feel superior to people enjoying a short break from them.

        • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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          4 days ago

          Almost like the people being sold something are telling the sellers exactly what they want to see. I wish selling stuff was always that easy.

          • toomanypancakes@lemmy.world
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            Then the people here either already know what the morally correct thing to do is and are choosing not to because someone on the Internet wasn’t nice to them, making them a terrible person, or they don’t think murder and torture are bad things when done to other creatures and no amount of Internet niceties will teach them otherwise, also making them a terrible person.

            Nobody is selling anything. Make a moral decision or go away.

            • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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              4 days ago

              You’re pushing an ideology. You want people to get on board for those. By the powers of synonyms, you could just as easily say you’re selling an ideology and you want people to buy in.

              Reframe it in a moral or ethical framework all you want. Throw sticks, call people monsters, whatever. You’re pushing a viewpoint you want people to accept. Maybe listen to the people you’re trying to talk to when they tell you how they want to be engaged with.

              • toomanypancakes@lemmy.world
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                This is a circle jerk community for vegans. Nobody wants to teach a bunch of adult babies how not to be a shitheel, you’re supposed to already know to participate.

                Stop violating instance rules and go away. I’m sorry you aren’t getting your hand held.

                • Ookami38@sh.itjust.works
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                  The only instance rule I seem to be violating is not personally being a vegan. If shit hits all, you HAVE to expect some outsiders to pop up in your community. You don’t want them there, don’t keep engaging with them.

                  That’s aight, though, I’ll see myself out. I’d rather hang with people who can engage in an actual conversation instead of getting their feelings hurt at some animosity.

        • HelixDab2@lemm.ee
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          4 days ago

          When vegans can’t sell the idea of being vegan to people–with the exception of selling it to people that are already inclined that way–maybe, just maybe, they should look at their sales techniques. Think about street corner preachers that use a megaphone to tell everyone that they’re going to hell because they’re fags, whores, sodomites, trannies, baby killers, whatever slur you want to use; have they ever, even once, managed to make you consider that maybe being an evangelical Christian was right for you?

          Directing slurs at people that aren’t vegan isn’t going to convince people you’re right; it’s going to make people hostile and defensive. You’re creating an in-group and an out-group; you’re reinforcing your own status as a member of the in-group, while being exclusionary of everyone that is not already part of that group, or is not sufficiently committed to that group. It’s not even effective as form of negging, because negging has to be subtle.

          If you want to sell ideas to people, you need to take advice from people that successfully sell ideas from people. If you don’t, well, good luck, 'cuz your gonna need it.

  • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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    5 days ago

    Fun story:

    Was going to high-school in Sweden for a bit. They got free lunch over there as part of going to school, or at least to that one.

    The kitchen was mandated to provide both regular and vegan options in equal amounts, despite that the vegans made up a fraction of the total school’s population. I found out the kitchen throws out the vegan stuff every day, and that it didn’t taste bad.

    I’ve had bad vegan substitutes, but this wasn’t, so I added a bunch of the vegan food to my regular food every lunch.

    I eventually noticed I was getting angry, hateful glares every single day from this one table where the same 12 to 15 guys sat. I asked my classmate about that and she told me those were the school’s vegans. They really hated that I touched their food and ate it along side my none vegan food, despite that the kitchen literally had to trash large portions of it every day.

      • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        Likewise.

        After the 2008 crisis me and my family were homeless for 6 years. We survived a lot by dumpster diving, and it was quite a shock to see the sheer amount of food getting dumped, even for just minor reasons.

        Like a pack of 12 fruit yogurts, of which a lid on just one was compromised. Eyup, thrown out.

        And that’s not counting all the food that gets dumped before it comes to supermarket shelves.

    • lud@lemm.ee
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      Fun fact: Since 1973 it has been legally required to serve free lunch at elementary schools every single school day, no exceptions. Since 2011 the food also has to be nutritious.

  • Etterra@lemmy.world
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    5 days ago

    Oh wow a hostile and pretentious herbavore. Never seen one of those before.

    • BruceTwarzen@lemm.ee
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      4 days ago

      Wow a omnivore who can’t form a sentence without mentioning bacon, haven’t seen one of those before.

      • ZMoney@lemmy.world
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        It’s a special category of food for them. They don’t even consider it meat. It’s some sort of icon. To be fair, I have witnessed a pair of vegans fawn over carob chips in exactly the same way. I’d love it if we could eat rationally without the fetishizing.

  • Empricorn@feddit.nl
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    5 days ago

    “They accidentally used regular milk in my latte instead of oat milk, and I didn’t want to waste it and force them remake it.”

    Online vegans: #ABUSER ANIMAL-RAPIST!!!

  • shalafi@lemmy.world
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    5 days ago

    Yeah. I had a lot of positive things to say about dating a vegan. /c/vegan: DELETED. Wasn’t militant enough.

    I tried to tell her that her views were doing more harm than good to the cause. NOPE. Full throated, chest out, or you’re a sinner.

    • ObliviousEnlightenment@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      A discord server Im in is mostly vegan, exactly the same response. They genuinely believe being militant and alienating will actually work in the long run. Cant fix stupid

      • Rev3rze@feddit.nl
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        I doubt it’s a genuine belief that it will work, to be honest. People just love to feel superior. I’m convinced the hostile vegans have joined the cause simply because they found a club to make them feel superior over others in much the same way radically religious types use that cause to do the same. They believe with such vigor because they need to for their own sense of self-worth rather than because they actually believe in the cause. If they really believed in the cause then they’d be welcoming of new members. They’re not welcoming and downright hostile to new members because that would expand the in-group and shrink the out-group they get to feel superior over.

        • DontMakeMoreBabies@lemm.ee
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          It all just screams “Little Dick/Tits Energy.”

          I’m convinced that a lot of the weird bullshit we see (i.e. gatekeeping veganism to feel superior) can be traced back to confidence issues.

      • Retrograde@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        I assume they mean harm as in reinforcing the “snobbish” stereotype that vegans are known for, and OP’s screenshot demonstrates the same thing- potentially turning people away from considering the diet themselves.

        You’re helping the planet and animals by not eating them, but if your snobbery turns 10 people off from adopting that diet, then I’d say you’ve hypothetically done more harm than good too lol

  • moonburster@lemmy.world
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    4 days ago

    Finding this place on all is the best that has ever happened to me.

    Wouldn’t say it is making me vegan, but who knows. Maybe one day you guys might be the ones to convince me

  • signor@lemmy.world
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    4 days ago

    Vegan is more than a diet so I get their shitting response. A good reason I always used plant-based and just advocated for people to eat more veg and less meat/dairy.

      • toomanypancakes@lemmy.world
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        Great way to lose your current clientele that doesn’t support murder, not attract other clientele who’d rather eat McDonald’s, and still go out of business while giving away your spine.

  • MindTraveller@lemmy.ca
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    5 days ago

    Anyone who pays for animals to be killed for their pleasure is an animal abuser and a piece of shit.

    • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      Food. A basic necessity. And humans are omnivores.

      Your opinions are entirely based on your personal emotional problems and have no rational bearing.

      • ObliviousEnlightenment@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        Im plenty critical of militant vegans, but thats a bit unfair. Industrial ranching is a big contributor to climate change, theres a well-reasoned argument I see alot

        • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          Yes, but such arguments are misplaced. Their issue is then not with the meat industry but with the current state of the world as a whole. But because animals have a central nervous system, and people love being activists without actually doing anything, they become vegan.

          Concrete, the creation of it, and the transportation of it, is probably one of the biggest contributors to climate change. Smart devices, sneakers, t-shirts, and toys, amongst many other things, are created by what is essentially the modern day equivalent to slavery. Many exotic “superfoods” come from third world countries where the local natives can no longer afford to eat it because costs have been driven up, because it all needs to be exported so some blond chick can have it on her toast. Lithium is probably the most important resource right now, yet it’s production of it is highly destructive to the environment. Traditional farming is causing soil fatigue, contamination of ground water, and the destruction of complex ecosystems in place of monocultures, but people hate on GMOs, “chemicals”, and vertical farming.

          These are problems that effect our society and our environment that even the most militant vegans make use of on a daily basis. The lifestyle vegans have (the ones we hear about in the news and see in the Internet, not the far flung tribes or humble Buddhist monks) cannot exist without modern society. So militant vegans are hypocrites.

          • healthetank@lemmy.ca
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            5 days ago

            I mean the difference is that concrete has a function and is largely irreplaceable. The argument most vegans make is that animals are not functionally needed in order to fulfill the “food” requirement of living. Concrete is, by large, used for houses and structures which provide shelter, and there are no viable alternatives.

            • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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              5 days ago

              Not for concrete itself, but certainly how it’s produced. The largest contributing factor to the production of concrete is energy and fossil fuels.

              As for how functionality applies to meat; meat is incredibly nutrient dense, with certain vitamins, such as B12 or A, being in high quantity compared to other sources, or having certain nutrients simply not found anywhere else, such as taurine, creatine, or carnitine.

              To reduce the environmental impact of food, which applies to all food and not just meat, we need to accept the idea of not having excess of everything. We don’t need 5 different cuts of meat from 3 different brands. We don’t need 5 different kinds of apples. We don’t need a whole shopping isle filled with… Goodness knows how many different kinds of cereal.

              • healthetank@lemmy.ca
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                4 days ago

                For sure, but that applies to literally everything - decarbonization of the energy grid/moving away from gas is a huge factor for literally every aspect of life, particularly farming and red meat. The energy involved in creating meat is significantly higher than any other foods, which is why I disagreed with your point. We have an alternative for meat, but there isnt one for concrete. Using it as a comparison is a poor argument.

                Arguing that conditionally essential amino acids are not found elsewhere is a misleading argument. In addition to the fact that all of those three can be created by your body, Taurine is found in lentils, a staple of many vegan diets, seaweed can contain creatine, and carnitine can be found in trace amounts in most foods. None of them are as dense as meat, for sure, but there are numerous sources, plus supplements.

                To reduce the environmental impact of food, which applies to all food and not just meat, we need to accept the idea of not having excess of everything. We don’t need 5 different cuts of meat from 3 different brands. We don’t need 5 different kinds of apples. We don’t need a whole shopping isle filled with… Goodness knows how many different kinds of cereal.

                Definitely agree with this, but its probably just as hard a sell, and much less feasible to do on an individual level.

        • gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 days ago

          They said: anyone

          That’s very different from a specific complaint about factory farming and industrial ranching

          • Prandom_returns@lemm.ee
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            4 days ago

            I’d be fine with there being a rule that you can only kill/eat what you’ve raised yourself. No selling.

            I think that would make a lot of people think twice, if the taste is worth the effort.

            • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              The problem there is people in cities could not do it, in many cities it’s illegal or not feasible to raise chickens or goats, or to hunt or even trap.

                • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  I don’t think most of those people are going to go for that rule, you’d likely have black market agriculture happening, and that hasn’t been working so well for drugs these days. Gonna get turkey laced with fent and shit lol. Good luck with that though!

      • WillFord27@lemmy.world
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        I agree. The sooner we switch to a partial cannibalistic diet the sooner we can settle this. There, I’ve confused everyone.

        • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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          No, you’ve just said something else nonsensical:

          Humans don’t feature any of the materials we need to consume as they’re already inside of us, hence we consume the materials from other lifeforms (Yes, that includes plants) who produce the things we lack.

          So cannibalism isn’t good. Neither is eating a carnivore.

          • Liz@midwest.social
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            … What? Humans are made of meat. As far a I’ve read, they’re fairly delicious, too. Eating carnivores is also fine.

            Now, if you’re trying to only eat the safest, most energy efficient forms of meat, don’t eat people or carnivores. But just in terms of the nutrients contained within, meat is meat.

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      5 days ago

      oh yeah, tell me how disgusting I am for eating a poor little piggy 😳

      • 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        The pig was likely gassed or shot to death. Its body was then cut in half with a large saw, then hung on a conveyor to be dismembered.

        • Sneezycat
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          Okay, real talk, I don’t really care what they do to the animals after they’re dead, as long as it’s hygienic.

          The real problem is how they are treated during their lives, and how they’re killed. There are farms ranging from pretty bad to “absolutely horrible hellish shit you wouldn’t believe” bad.

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            Okay, real talk, there’s no ethical way to kill someone who’s done nothing to you and didn’t want to die.

            We should therefore be farming boomers instead. Gimme those daddy steaks

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              5 days ago

              Okay, real talk, the concept of ethics in general is a human construct. One that is impossible to apply across all cultures, and even when they are accepted as social mores, they are illogically applied and are often full of internal contradictions.

              For example, if it’s unethical to “kill someone who’s done nothing to you and didn’t want to die.”, then can we assume it’s ethical to kill something that has slighted us? Or is it okay to kill something that isn’t conscious of it’s mortality?

              How do we determine if something doesn’t want to die? How do we delineate the difference between something like zooplankton or krill from plants?

              I don’t really eat meat, but that’s mostly for health and environmental harm reduction. However, I understand that humans are imperfect beings, and have different social mores to adhere too. Out of all the evil man has unleashed over our evolution, I would hardly say that consuming animal products is anywhere close to the top of the list.

              Plus, I think the way the west classifies veganism is a bit culturally insensitive. Different cultures subscribe to different interpretations of attributes when defining traits to life forms than in the west.

              For example, there are Buddhist monks in Korea that eat a “vegan diet”, except their kimchi is made with krill. Now if you ask if they eat meat or animals, they will tell you no. However, culturally krill aren’t really considered an animal, they’re viewed more as a plant.

              I would hardly call a person who’s spent their entire lives living off of plants a carnist or “bloodmouth”, just because they eat a little krill. But, I would like to hear your opinion on the matter.

            • GBU_28@lemm.ee
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              5 days ago

              Animals aren’t people wtf.

              Livestock animals deserve far better than they get, but comparing their lives to humans is absurd

        • Twitches@lemm.ee
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          5 days ago

          Thank God it’s shot to death, it would be really awkward if it was just wounded

            • GroundedGator@lemmy.world
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              5 days ago

              Even a wounded animal is going to respond physically to the sound of a saw. Then you have to consider what will happen when the half dead body of a 900lb pig is placed on a cold steel plate and slowly pushed into a sharp fast moving band saw. A half alive pig would take a few people to hold it down and get the job done.

              If you go ass first, damn things would probably kick and scream for a good 5 minutes before it would succumb to the injuries. Would be better to go head first really.

              On second thought, for the health of the consumer, the food meat animal would need to be gutted before it was cut on the band saw. Yeah, gutting a half living meat sack would be much harder than a dead one. Very awkward. Maybe if it were dead enough it might even live for an extra few minutes. One might say that would be an advantage over being killed instantly with a bolt to the skull. You had a few more minutes of life, no matter how painful they might have been.

              Paralysed maybe, not able to move our scream. A soft gloved hand stroking the skin. A cold, sharp pinch as a gutting knife quickly penetrates your body. Just a few more seconds now. The blade expertly guided up the abdomen. The flow of warm blood flowing over the legs. A sudden feeling of coldness as the blood drains, one last breath taken. Never exhaled.

              BRB! My bacon is ready.

    • John_McMurray@lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      Yeah I often don’t pay. I slit animal’s throats and butcher them myself if sausage/ground meat is the intent. Real butcher i pay if I want nicely cut steaks.

    • Lightor@lemmy.world
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      5 days ago

      For turning more people away from the idea of being a vegan? Me too! Less elitist jerks to deal with, yay!

      • toomanypancakes@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        Ew, imagine being vegan, no thanks. Not murdering for selfish reasons sounds awful. My pleasure is the most important thing there is, I’m not going to let some beta cuck emotion like empathy fuck that up for me.

        • Lightor@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          Nah, I just mean they’re all jerks. Like the guy in the post and you. You hurt your cause more than you realize bud.

          • toomanypancakes@lemmy.world
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            5 days ago

            Thank goodness, vegans are the worst. I hope I’m convincing you not to go vegan with my behavior, as opposed to the behavior you think would convert you that hasn’t. We can’t lose another fragile meat eater to the rude vegan cult.

            • Luvs2Spuj@lemmy.world
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              5 days ago

              Read this exchange again and see who is fragile here. Surely you want people to eat less meat? Why would you not try to encourage that instead of behaving in this way?

              Vegans aren’t the worst, assholes who behave like you and the restaurant owner are. It just so happens that an unfortunate amount of vegans are also assholes, which really makes it hard engage with you.

            • Lightor@lemmy.world
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              5 days ago

              Lol, just keep pushing people away by being an ass then blaming everyone else. Few things you can always count on with a vegan. They’ll tell you they’re vegan, they’ll treat you poorly once they realize you aren’t one, then they’ll blame you for everything wrong in the food industry. Ugh, get a personality.

              There’s a reason everyone is down voting you, and it’s not because you’re vegan. A little self reflection might do wonders.

                • Lightor@lemmy.world
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                  5 days ago

                  Lol me? You’re the one who got butt hurt that people eat meat and started to go at people.

                  You need to take a look in the mirror man, hard. Because me spelling it out for you just made you hand wave it away harder.