Ir definitely hurt Israel on the international stage. Whether you think it’s worth it aside, unless something really big changes the only way Palestinians will get their freedom is by forcing Israel to display their genocide as obviously as possible until they get the South Africa treatment. Peaceful resistance of settler colonialism simply doesn’t and has never worked.
I appreciate the sentiment, but somebody should’ve pointed out to them how many genocides we’ve stopped vs how many we’ve allowed to happen over the past half century.
I don’t think Oct 7th was about Palestinian freedom, at any rate. I don’t think hamas leaders living in the UAE give a rats ass about the survival of Gazan citizens. They’re just another tool to be taken advantage of. If hamas was really interested in Palestinian freedom, they would have granted elections in the region they controlled.
I appreciate the sentiment, but somebody should’ve pointed out to them how many genocides we’ve stopped vs how many we’ve allowed to happen over the past half century.
I’m not sure I get the point. Who’s “we” and what did they do?
If hamas was really interested in Palestinian freedom, they would have granted elections in the region they controlled.
Hamas definitely wants power, that’s for sure. I’m not saying they’re a good government. But Palestinian freedom from Palestinians and Palestinian freedom from Israel are two completely different things. Hamas is definitely authoritarian, but they also genuinely want freedom for Palestine. Their actions over the past 20 years can only point to that conclusion.
I think there are other possible conclusions that are less about anything good and more about destroying perceived enemies.
When I say we, I’m speaking as an American, and more generally talking about the broader world. We stepped in in Kosovo, we stepped in with the Yazidis. Far more often, though, the world does not police genocide attempts. It protests them, tries to apply the international justice system to the perpetrators, but does not take strong measures to halt the killing.
Generally speaking, we do not police the world, and instead leave local affairs in the hands of whatever country they are happening in, for the vast, vast majority of countries. This makes any strategy to try to halt a genocide by appealing to the world unlikely to succeed. Netanyahu knows this, and is probably counting on it. While I support a Two State Solution, I don’t think this is good strategy for accomplishing it, and is far more likely to accelerate the destruction of the Palestinian people.
I don’t see hamas as freedom fighters at all. I see them as misguided jihadists with an effective propaganda wing and a savvy sense for politics.
I think there are other possible conclusions that are less about anything good and more about destroying perceived enemies.
I’m not talking about those actions. Hamas has participated in too many good faith negotiations, both with Israel and the PNA, for an organization that only cares about its own existence. See for example: 2013-2014 unity government, 2008 ceasefire, 2012-2013 ceasefire.
While I support a Two State Solution, I don’t think this is good strategy for accomplishing it, and is far more likely to accelerate the destruction of the Palestinian people.
Then what do you suggest instead?
I don’t see hamas as freedom fighters at all. I see them as misguided jihadists with an effective propaganda wing and a savvy sense for politics.
I mean they produce results. You can think there are better ways (I don’t see them, but maybe they exist), but you can’t argue with results.
The results are exactly what I’m concerned with. As I said, I think the result for the Palestinian people is going to be a worsening of the situation for Palestinians. Not a bettering. More dead and less rights. Not more rights and freedoms.
That said, I do not have any ideas for how to actually accomplish a two state solution.
I also don’t see how engaging in good faith negotiations automatically makes them working for a good cause. Anyone can engage in negotiations any time it benefits them to do so.
As I said, I think the result for the Palestinian people is going to be a worsening of the situation for Palestinians.
So here’s the core issue: Palestinians will never earn their freedom out of Israeli goodwill. Any gains will have to be made in spite of Israel’s insistence that they’re entitled to all of Palestine. No matter what method you pick, things will have to get worse before they get better. This is independent of whether this particular method will work or not.
That said, I do not have any ideas for how to actually accomplish a two state solution.
Exactly. What Hamas is doing is ugly, but they (and Palestinian resistance as a whole) are doing what they can in an impossible situation. Of course this is aside from the dictatorship aspect; they should definitely stop doing that. Anyway what I’m trying to say is: There’s only one way forward for Palestinians and it’s to force Israel to keep destroying Western goodwill until it’s all gone. They’re doing a good job on that department, which is what I was referring to as “results”. Remember that 2024 is the first time Palestine becomes an election issue in the West in 20 years. What Israel lost in this genocide cannot be underestimated.
They’re still not needed. Unless you think Oct 7th saved Gazan lives. Or that future attacks on the IDF will save any Gazan lives.
Ir definitely hurt Israel on the international stage. Whether you think it’s worth it aside, unless something really big changes the only way Palestinians will get their freedom is by forcing Israel to display their genocide as obviously as possible until they get the South Africa treatment. Peaceful resistance of settler colonialism simply doesn’t and has never worked.
I appreciate the sentiment, but somebody should’ve pointed out to them how many genocides we’ve stopped vs how many we’ve allowed to happen over the past half century.
I don’t think Oct 7th was about Palestinian freedom, at any rate. I don’t think hamas leaders living in the UAE give a rats ass about the survival of Gazan citizens. They’re just another tool to be taken advantage of. If hamas was really interested in Palestinian freedom, they would have granted elections in the region they controlled.
I’m not sure I get the point. Who’s “we” and what did they do?
Hamas definitely wants power, that’s for sure. I’m not saying they’re a good government. But Palestinian freedom from Palestinians and Palestinian freedom from Israel are two completely different things. Hamas is definitely authoritarian, but they also genuinely want freedom for Palestine. Their actions over the past 20 years can only point to that conclusion.
I think there are other possible conclusions that are less about anything good and more about destroying perceived enemies.
When I say we, I’m speaking as an American, and more generally talking about the broader world. We stepped in in Kosovo, we stepped in with the Yazidis. Far more often, though, the world does not police genocide attempts. It protests them, tries to apply the international justice system to the perpetrators, but does not take strong measures to halt the killing.
Here’s a list for the past 24 years:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(21st_century)
Generally speaking, we do not police the world, and instead leave local affairs in the hands of whatever country they are happening in, for the vast, vast majority of countries. This makes any strategy to try to halt a genocide by appealing to the world unlikely to succeed. Netanyahu knows this, and is probably counting on it. While I support a Two State Solution, I don’t think this is good strategy for accomplishing it, and is far more likely to accelerate the destruction of the Palestinian people.
I don’t see hamas as freedom fighters at all. I see them as misguided jihadists with an effective propaganda wing and a savvy sense for politics.
I’m not talking about those actions. Hamas has participated in too many good faith negotiations, both with Israel and the PNA, for an organization that only cares about its own existence. See for example: 2013-2014 unity government, 2008 ceasefire, 2012-2013 ceasefire.
Then what do you suggest instead?
I mean they produce results. You can think there are better ways (I don’t see them, but maybe they exist), but you can’t argue with results.
The results are exactly what I’m concerned with. As I said, I think the result for the Palestinian people is going to be a worsening of the situation for Palestinians. Not a bettering. More dead and less rights. Not more rights and freedoms.
That said, I do not have any ideas for how to actually accomplish a two state solution.
I also don’t see how engaging in good faith negotiations automatically makes them working for a good cause. Anyone can engage in negotiations any time it benefits them to do so.
So here’s the core issue: Palestinians will never earn their freedom out of Israeli goodwill. Any gains will have to be made in spite of Israel’s insistence that they’re entitled to all of Palestine. No matter what method you pick, things will have to get worse before they get better. This is independent of whether this particular method will work or not.
Exactly. What Hamas is doing is ugly, but they (and Palestinian resistance as a whole) are doing what they can in an impossible situation. Of course this is aside from the dictatorship aspect; they should definitely stop doing that. Anyway what I’m trying to say is: There’s only one way forward for Palestinians and it’s to force Israel to keep destroying Western goodwill until it’s all gone. They’re doing a good job on that department, which is what I was referring to as “results”. Remember that 2024 is the first time Palestine becomes an election issue in the West in 20 years. What Israel lost in this genocide cannot be underestimated.
I suppose I wish that destroying western goodwill was a viable way to halt a genocide.