- cross-posted to:
- housing_bubble_2@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- housing_bubble_2@lemmy.world
There is a deepening sense of fear as population loss accelerates in rural America. The decline of small-town life is expected to be a looming topic in the presidential election.
…
America’s rural population began contracting about a decade ago, according to statistics drawn from the U.S. Census Bureau.
A whopping 81 percent of rural counties had more deaths than births between 2019 and 2023, according to an analysis by a University of New Hampshire demographer. Experts who study the phenomena say the shrinking baby boomer population and younger residents having smaller families and moving elsewhere for jobs are fueling the trend.
According to a recent Agriculture Department estimate, the rural population did rebound by 0.25 percent from 2020 to 2022 as some families decamped from urban areas during the pandemic.
But demographers say they are still evaluating whether that trend will continue, and if so, where. Pennsylvania has been particularly afflicted. Job losses in the manufacturing and energy industries that began in the 1980s prompted many younger families to relocate to Sun Belt states. The relocations helped fuel population surges in places like Texas and Georgia. But here, two-thirds of the state’s 67 counties have experienced a drop in population in recent years.
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- “younger residents having smaller families and moving elsewhere for jobs”
- “many residents in this deeply Republican town”
gee, I can’t imagine why young people would want to leave such a stagnant regressive environment …
Yeah, who could even begin to guess…
Probably something to do with the weather. We’ll never know…
Its the water - its turning the freaking frogs gay
It’s the fluoride, I knew it! No wonder I listen to so much pop music.
That’s been a general movement away from rural America for decades (and people have been leaving the countryside to make their fortune in the big city for centuries). However, this line stood out to me because of the timeframe cited:
A whopping 81 percent of rural counties had more deaths than births between 2019 and 2023.
Maybe I’m just still bitter, but maybe they should have tried social distancing, wearing masks, and getting vaccinated.
Yeah, it is an interesting statistic, isn’t it? It definitely doesn’t seem like the kids moving away for better economic prospects is the only factor here.
Right.
Honestly for as much “woe is me” that they crammed into this piece, my takeaway was mostly just, “Hmmm…good.”
Like…I love rural PA, I’m just not wild about a lot of the people who live there. They vote against my own interests (and theirs), disproportionately influence state government, and welcome corporations that proudly destroy the environment while taking a hostile stance toward anyone not like them.
This isn’t down to every last person, of course, but broadly speaking, the ones who aren’t fitting that template are also not the ones doing most of the dying.
So the piece is reading, to me, more as, “the people most responsible for keeping the shitty aspects of Pennsylvania shitty are dying faster than they’re breeding”…which is good news for the more reasonable residents of the state.
This is not limited to the United States either.
Urbanisation and the growth of cities is across the industrialised world.
For example, while Japan’s population shrinks, Tokyo is growing.
I wonder how far this will go - will the industrialized world see more ghost towns?
We’ll probably live to see robot towns, where a small contingent of maintenence workers keep a huge fleet of automated farming/processing/shipping equipment operational. If they’re lucky Monsanto will buy a restaurant chain so there’s somewhere for them to eat nearby.
This stood out to me as well, the conservative stance on C-19 and the resulting general negligence seems a very obvious major factor to the rural population decline in this timeframe.
It would add a temporary valley into a graph that was already trending down.
The decline is threefold:
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Agriculture is getting significantly more efficient. You don’t need 300 people do backbreaking labor for 12 hours a day in the beating sun anymore. We have automated threshers.
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Industries are shifting. We generally moved away from manufacturing and an extraction-based economy. (Though the former is recovering, thanks to Biden’s awesome investment plan)
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jobs are moving to cities, where there are more schools, hospitals, high paying jobs, and may be more resilient to climate change.
Personally, I’d never ever consider moving anywhere rural for the aforementioned reasons, but also because rural americans are against my type family, and I don’t care to be the queer pioneer family for them to realize we aren’t so bad. I also never want to drive a car for a half hour+ for basic supplies or to see friends. It’s too lonely. We have rail and ebikes here. I can get to the store or a friend’s in less than 10 minutes.
There are still a lot of workers needed in agriculture, but increasingly they are either undocumented migrants or on restrictive visas (like temporary foreign workers in Canada) that limit their bargaining power and let their employers exploit them with poor working conditions and rock bottom wages. This means that these workers often don’t have the means or income to participate much in the local economy beyond the bare essentials. This is actually a case of “trickle down economics” where paying workers fair, living wages would lead to healthier local economies where these workers could spend those wages and support having or starting a family.
Having come back to the farm later in life, the issue with rural communities (at least in Canada) isn’t prejudice, it’s that everyone is up in everyone else’s business. But we have gay couples with kids around that seem to negotiate it fine. People are fine face to face usually.
Fine face-to-face but still vote to make your existence illegal. I’m not alright with that kind of “civility” and it’s the reason I don’t connect with an arm of my extended family. Fuck em.
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This rural Pennsylvania town could get a huge population boom if they had a “we welcome queer people and migrants and we don’t tolerate hate” policy they announced to the world.
But of course, that’s way too far for them.
Really? That’s your go-to glib answer? No discussion about education opportunities or job prospects? No question about why the downturn was really noted in 2014? Just immediately jumping to the conclusion that rural people MUST be hateful?
Disappointing.
Look I’m from such a small Pennsylvania town. Rural Appalachian. Coal mines and specialty steel production most notably.
Both of you are right, and the problems feed back into each other to some extent.
After my family migrated west more than a decade ago, every single time we go back to PA to visit family, attend a funeral and so forth — it just keeps looking more and more run down. Honestly the place is a shit-hole nowadays. I’m sad to see my old county went for Trump by 70%. You couldn’t pay me enough to move my family back.
The young, educated, smart, and compassionate folks leave and GTFO asap — both for jobs, and for more diversity and tolerance. The sad part is I remember watching a slew of documentaries in the early 2000s forewarning of what would happen to these small-towns…
- Because of shipping manufacturing off elsewhere.
- Because of big box corporate eating up local shops, eroding community and draining out the money.
- Because administrations were unwilling to break the hard news that things like coal mines wouldn’t last forever and we’d have to help retrain and get them to new modern job sectors.
No doubt these communities feel the pressures they’re complaining about; they’ve just been exploited by right-wing media about who is responsible: the southern migrant more desperate than them, the trans, the homosexuals, the liberals, etc…
@FlyingSquid is also right that there is FAR more bigotry among these communities as well; and that ties back to not being well-traveled, our education system collapsing, and the right-wing fearmongering machine.
Edit: Shit, Inside Out 3 should be about being inside the head of a MAGA supporter.
Inside Out 3 should be about being inside the head of a MAGA supporter.
Pixar doesn’t make horror movies.
It would just be five Rage characters screaming at each other.
Knocked it out of the park with this comment.
Sincerely,
Someone originally from the same town as you, basically.
Uhhhhh, I don’t care much for their response either but like a solid 80% of rural houses are flying trump flags, even in states like new york. You can pretty safely assume that old rural people are hateful.
You’re right, it’s probably one of those rural Republican-voting towns full of residents who love queer people and migrants.
I left because of the bigotry and hate. I work remotely and don’t have kids. That is the only thing stopping me.
Diversity leads to education opportunities and jobs. Hate and discrimination are the reason there are no jobs and shitty education. Please stop white washing our society. The hate is a cancer.
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time…and every time after.
These assholes don’t change.
That was true of the small Ohio town I grew up in. Tons of anti-semitism, racism, hatred of non-straights, hatred of non-christians, etc. Most of the jobs were in agriculture and manufacturing. I no longer live in the US but, if I had to move back, I don’t think you could pay me enough to live in that place again.
This thread is filled with close minded, bigoted people shitting on people for being close minded and bigoted. It would be funny if it wasn’t so terribly tragic.
But you seem new here. This is pretty typical for Lemmy. So I guess I should say welcome. Lol
The existence of close minded, bigoted people automatically renders them in violation of just about every societal norm and contract.
Punching a racist/homophobe/terf/Mazi is always justified. Their existence is a threat to others because of their beliefs.
Would you tell an abused spouse to tolerate or be less close minded about being hit or emotionally abused?
Go f off with your fence sitting.
You’re confusing my lack of a double standard with fence sitting.
One person being bigoted and close minded doesn’t preclude other people from also being bigoted and close minded.
I could be a racist piece of shit and drop the n word. If a black person then turns around and calls all white people racist pieces of shit, we’re both bigots.
I’m not tolerating bigotry, I’m calling it all out. It’s you, right here, that’s defending bigotry. Not me.
I could be a racist piece of shit and drop the n word. If a black person then turns around and calls all white people racist pieces of shit, we’re both bigots
Except… 2 people being assholes when the power dynamic is still very stilted is NOT a level playing field. Context matters. You’re not some enlightened sigma with this hot take.
Suffer a few generations of systemic oppression and you might get the parity you think you have
I didn’t say the playing field was level; I understand that I’ve been granted many benefits due to my race and sex.
I said they are both bigots. Are you really arguing that a black guy saying all white people are pieces of shit is not a bigot?
But youre analog doesnt working with most social bigotries. There arent many folks who are say gay or trans who hate cis or straught folks. Sure an antifascist may want to set a Nazi on fire and watch them slowly die, but the track record of fascists as a whole is covered in so much blood ya cant see a record.
The closest ya may get is someone like myself who hates say the Seventh Day Adventist to the point that it seems like bigotry, but even then bigotry is usually irrational I hate them because of a long list of slights both big and small against my family going back a hundred years. Also theyre cultists.
Ya aint calling out a double standard, tolerance is a social contract if broken civility is right out. When we dont have civility we have savager, the rules of savagery is violence be it social, verbal, economic, psychological, or physical.
The defence against your claim is the Tolerance Paradox
I’m not saying to be tolerant of intolerance. This thread is filled with people shitting on people from rural areas, and being extremely prejudiced.
I don’t think rural towns are depopulating due to hate or discrimination… it’s mostly because of job prospects, no?
Obviously my own experience is entirely anecdotal, but I think relevant to the point. I work 100% remotely, I just need a decent Internet connection. I currently live in a moderately sized city, and keeping up with the finances can be a struggle compared to the lower cost of rural living. However, I’m also a gay man, pro choice, I don’t care what two or more consenting adults do in the privacy of their home, etc. etc. etc. with all the usual liberal stuff.
The job prospects aren’t why I left the rural southeastern US, and they aren’t the reason I’ll never go back there.
These people were warned about the brain drain their bullshit would cause. I have no sympathy for them or their towns’ dwindling tax revenues.
Rural people also vote for the political party that helps to make sure that the devil high speed internet never comes to their town.
I don’t care what two or more consenting adults do in the privacy of their home, etc. etc. etc.
So they can put what drugs they want in their own body?
with all the usual liberal stuff.
Oh, never mind.
Most liberals I know are fine with legalizing most drugs so long as theyre regulated for safety reasons. But I cant tell if youre a dumb anarachist, a tankie or what so I dont get the point of your comment. Maybe elaborate if ya dont want to come across as… vapid I guess is the best word?
Likely a Tankie.
So they can put what drugs they want in their own body?
Is that supposed to be a gotcha?
I ONLY want Adults to put FDA Bribed drugs in their bodies!
With WFH I just need a small town with high speed internet. However, with kids, rural schools do not rank well.
I don’t have kids at home anymore, but have online schools become a thing yet?
Seems to me like that’s a huge opportunity to tailor school to every kid’s ability, though the socialization would suffer. But plenty of kids come out of homeschooling just fine.
As long as the kids have other outlets for social interaction. We did online during covid and I wouldn’t do it again.
My daughter is in online school, a public school in fact, and a WFH job would be difficult for me to hold because I have to spend all day supervising her, which is exhausting enough, and the job would have to be one I could do in the evenings.
So you just don’t work at all?
They sure do post a lot on Lemmy for being a stay at home parent supervising their kid… 1670+ posts, 34500+ comments in 12 months. That’s about 4 posts and 95 comments per day.
No, both because of that and because of a serious illness. But even if I didn’t have the illness, I would be doing two jobs and not getting paid for one of them.
There are two sides to the equation though - depopulation and repopulation. Hate and discrimination may not be causing (most of) the exodus, but inclusion and acceptance could be part of the solution. I’ve known more than a few people who have wanted to move to rural areas but have avoided them for exactly that reason. The braver ones have made the move, but only as a group able to support and protect each other.
It’s a combination of both. Young women don’t want to stay in these places because they all vote Republican and all republicans are hate filled bigots who view women as property.
The women leave for greener pastures, and the young men are left with no job prospects and no one to date. They get up and leave as well.
Since all these towns are hate filled trash heaps, no money gets invested into them. The farms are all corpo owned and don’t need the town, the Dollar General employs two people, and the used car lot has not sold anything in four years. There is nothing to do in these places except lie about being disabled (this is very different than having a real disability) sponge off the government, then watch Fox News all day and mald.
Were about to move to a smaller but more queer friendly town for this exact reason. My city seems indifferent at best, and I’d like to live somewhere that actually likes us.
We’re DINKs, we pay taxes, were good neighbors pretty much any way you look at it, but were visibly queer & barely feel tolerated here.
In what state is this ‘smaller but more queer friendly town?’ Because I’m guessing it’s not rural PA.
Are you from rural PA?
Its not haha, its Bloomington IN. I cannot believe how queer that lil town is, its amazing
Really? I grew up there. Seriously. Born in Bloomington Hospital, went to BDLC, then Bloomington Montessori, then Batchelor Middle School, then BHS South (graduated in '95), then IU (dropped out because I’m a dummy). My mom still lives there, as do a ton of my friends.
It is definitely more queer friendly than a lot of towns, but you go over to the west side of town, a place like Highland Village, and you walk down the street holding hands with your boyfriend, you’ll probably still get harassed at the very least.
There’s still a ton of redneck townies there.
That said, I have the misfortune of living in Terre Haute and we’re planning to retire in Bloomington (unless Trump wins, in which case we’re using my dual citizenship to get the fuck out of here) and my daughter is queer, so I’m glad we’ll be retiring in a place where she can basically feel safe.
What floors me is that Terre Haute got a Pride Center and had its first Pride celebration after fucking Spencer.
Well to be clear were in Ohio now, so my standards for ‘queer/trans friendly’ arent high, but the area we hang out in has been nicer than our current place, more affordable, everything we want.
Its no west Hollywood haha but its a start
Please don’t tell me you are in Chillicothe, because I was there for a while too. (And North Hollywood rather than West, which is on the other side of a mountain range).
Further south, right on the KY border
It suuuuuuuuucks
No duh. Have you ever been out there? Sure, it’s pretty, but that’s it. Absolutely nothing to do. Except meth. Oh, and drunk driving and KKK rallies.
I see you’ve been to my hometown.
The other person that replied did mention a lot of cool things you can do in a rural community. But being half an hour from a grocery store that has something I actually want at a price that’s reasonable (as reasonable as groceries get, I guess) sucks.
Fucking exactly.
Oh, I need bread, shit. Gotta get in the car and drive 60 miles an hour for 25 minutes each way. Great.
There are definitely tradeoffs.
Food and flower gardening, community or personal, waking, biking, swimming in rivers, fishing, sewing, knitting, getting to know your neighbors, barbecuing on wood or charcoal, building treehouses and swings, book clubs, picking up litter, mutual aid, sitting around and singing/playing instruments/swapping stories or making up tales to entertain children and each other, reading, pick up basketball/football/soccer/hackeysack, ride horses, hunt, fish, ride horses, dirt bikes, cards, dominoes, bird watching, butterfly watching. Board games, video games, potlucks. Plenty of stuff to do, it’s just usually a slower-paced activity.
While this is indeed a list, it pales in comparison to what you can do in or near a large city.
I enjoy a ton of things on your list but there’s stuff you just can’t easily do outside of a metro area. Especially stuff you need a specialized teacher for.
I’m in an online class now with an instructor who merely reads the chapter previously assigned as homework and won’t answer questions about anything other than their social activities. In an ivy League University area. Conversely an instructor in tiny little Katy, TX a couple of years ago and originally from Alabama gave plenty of homework, had well - planned classes, actually thoroughly explained independent reading material, and also could answer in-depth questions on an ELI 5 level. It’s more to do with personal ability, interest and integrity and actually caring about/liking the job.
Katy ain’t tiny. Well, in and of itself it is but it’s part of the Houston metro. I live off the Energy Corridor. I can be in Katy in a few minutes. I can also be at a dozen grocery stores, an insane number of taco trucks, any type of bar you’d care to visit, escape rooms, several gyms (I’ve recently started rock climbing in one again!), and shit loads of white collar industry for a good paying job within a few minutes. My first IT job making more than $125k was 10 minutes out of Katy. It’s suburban, not rural.
I stand corrected! She said it was tiny, and at the time, I had plenty of work keeping me busy! Thanks for the information!
No worries! It’s less than half an hour to downtown Houston from here at this time of night and probably right at half an hour from Katy proper.
I grew up in a true rural community of less than 1000. It was half an hour to the outskirts of the nearest city, and that place had 75,000 people. It was hours away from the outskirts of the closest REAL city, Dallas, with 1.3 million people. In contrast, Katy has 25,000 people and sits half an hour from the center of a city with 2.3 million people, nevermind the size of the metro area.
So if she lived on the west side of Katy, she was describing the place as she saw it and that’s not on you. A small place as compared to Houston, and more on the rural side of the suburbs. I take my motorcycle out that way because if you leave headed west it’s pretty empty for a while.
Thank you, for your magnanimity and description. Happy trails, friend.
I don’t see anything about diversity, having access to embassies, museums, universities, large businesses, etc. I just heard you say that you like to drive to all those places and have only one grocery store close by.
I’m not accepting your words in my mouth. What you think you heard is your business. Enjoy your evening at symphony. I’ve very much enjoyed mine.
That was actually a bit surprising as a response. It makes me more sure about what I said previously.
Are you under the impression that parks and rivers don’t exist in cities?
Sounds awful.
It is until you realize (after a long adjustment period) that it’s pretty healthy, if you allow it to be.
Ah you’ve met my in-laws i see!
Remote work.
Build homes in the echoes of cities instead of gentrifying shit holes.
Repurpose the corporate offices into affordable housing to fix the growing homelessness problems.
Create less car dependent infrastructure
Make more high density areas car free, and build affordable housing over the parking areas.
Subsidize farms if they use green tech. Subsidize them more if they’re smaller to reincitiveize small farms.
Abolish any ability for any corporation from owning any land not zoned for corporate use. Corporations may not own homes.
Did I mention remote work?
I’d add corporate farms should not get subsidies.
the more subsidies, the more transparent EVERYTHING about their operation has to be
Hear hear!
Transparency? In the agricultural sector? Madness.
Sadly, if you can remotely work from rural America, you can remotely work from rural India.
I’ve worked with India teams in 5 companies. Always bad. we need to rehire Americans to manage/oversight or redo. Ends up costing more. The code and website teams complaints never end but c level Don’t care.
End up bad, but for the first couple of quarters that “rock star” MBA has created huge short term profits. And is that what really matters in business these days…
Website example was a small private company with no investors. Like wtf? literally had to redo every web page and suddenly no one cares about the time spent. 6 months earler all huff and puffin “well India says they can do it in a month”. Worst part is they won’t acknowledge the months of work the US team put in to fix website. They only cared they had something even if it was trash.
Boondoggles/prolifrigates proliferate, unfortunately.
Lol no idea what you mean.
Basically that people and companies will spend a lot to save a little.
There are plenty of remote work jobs that are hiring globally now, not just the US or India. There are entire companies that are basically 100% ephemeral. Yes, it sucks for US workers that people in other countries are in the same job sandbox, but the jobs also exist. AI won’t change this either, you still need a person that knows the AI is belching out dogshit code, it’ll likely just reduce the number of code monkey jobs.
This is because of SOCIALISM! And if not Socialism it’s because of IMMIGRANTS WHO DON’T EVEN LIVE IN THESE COMMUNITIES! But it 100% is NOT due to Racism or Capitalism killing off Job Opportunities or Bigots or Catholics wanting to Legislate your Bedroom. No it’s DEFINITELY Communist Immigrants causing this!
Yeah, young folks are moving away because they’ve been indoctrinated in liberal college institutions and lured by a gay communist urban agenda to destroy rural America and bring about the decline of Christian conservative values! Nothing at all to do with capital consolidation and market monopolization resulting in reductions of diversified local markets and diminished job prospects! Increased cultural exposure due to accessing instantaneous global communications and social media? No way that has any influence in the decisions people make about what cultural environment they’d prefer to raise their children in. SmallTown USA is the best place to escape all the scary ideas that exist in the world, like equality among gender and race, and socializing the excesses of the private. Who would want to live in that kind of world?!
IMO, part of it has to do with Trumper school boards, weird conservative county commissioners voting to succeed and school library book bans. I live ‘out here’ and it gets worse every year.
Once upon a time you could entice youngsters to the countryside with promises of low cost of living, but then rural housing got super fucking expensive super fucking fast during the covid years. Like sure, maybe rural housing is still cheaper than suburban/urban housing (although this is HIGHLY location-specific), but gone are the days where you could buy a pretty nice house (or an iffy house on a sizable chunk of land) for less than the down payment on a house in a “desirable” area. You might be able to convince a middle-class 30- or 40-something American to live in the middle of nowhere in exchange for a good house they’re able to pay for in cash with change to spare (and with it the opportunity to retire a decade or so early). But once rural housing started needing mortgages to afford and buyers still had to deal with crap like bidding wars and sparse inventory, where’s the draw? At least in my state (Washington) rural housing inventory is finally going up and prices are starting to come down (although monthly payments are still at near-record highs if you need a mortgage), but it’s going to either be many years of incremental decline or a very sharp, very painful crash to return rural housing affordability to how it was.
Waaah our town is dying! Why don’t any young folks want to stay here?
many residents in this deeply Republican town say they view Trump as having a better vision for salvaging rural America
The town I was born in is dying and its been going on since I was a kid. They were a wood mill town with three plants. They have made every bad decision that they could make. Turned down a paper mill and college before I was born. Turned down two manufacturing plants and a wal-mart after I was born. Consistently resisted chain restaurants and stores even after I had grown up and left. Then the world changed, manufacturing and new opportunities dried up completely and they still cling to the old way of doing things because they can’t see they are the problem.
Now its just a shell full of empty lots and rotting houses. The local mayor is still associated with the old families but still is only interested in protecting what they have. They keep getting elected and the place continues to deteriorate. In their minds its due to people like me leaving and all the poor and their children who are still clinging to bones of that town. Not their fault though. How could it be? They are better than everyone else.
This is the state of far too many small towns in the US today.
The 1% can make their own wage slaves
Elon is working on it. Some of the women even consented freely.
I’m honestly concerned about this. No need for most people if you can just build your own labor.
They say neither Pennsylvania nor the nation can afford to lose small towns and the institutions that power them.
Lol, why?
Not only are they a touchstone of American life,
Very often a hard and poverty stricken life.
but they are also key to driving certain sectors of the economy, like agriculture.
What’s stopping farms from being built next to suburbs or even within cities with the tech we have now.
These boomers are why over romanticizing how “good” small town life was. What they’re really sad about is disproportionate political power our anti democratic electoral college gave them and the unchecked tin pot dictatorships they often held over small towns. Being able to get away with literal murder sometimes because they personally knew the cops and judges.
They couldn’t care less about the poor quality of life that most citizens of these small towns had. If they did they would have made the necessary investments to attract people (like a handful of small towns have).
Possible tin hat explanation: Suburbs/small towns lean conservative so preserving them is essential for conservatives to retain power.
And yet real estate prices remain at all time highs. Boomers asked for this.
The town I grew up in is in the middle of a cancer cluster. The largest factory (where most people work) got caught illegally dumping chemicals in the ground. They were just made to pay a relatively small fine. The corporation was threatening to move the plant somewhere else if it became too expensive to operate there, and all lawsuits were dismissed.
That factory, and most other factories in the area primarily just hire “temp” workers that they keep as temps for years, never actually hire them full time, and pay them near minimum wage with no benefits. Many young people who do end up staying in that area become drug addicts and die in their 20s or 30s.
There’s a lot of corruption in the local government and police as well. The police harass anybody they don’t like, and they know pretty much who everybody is and what they drive. A few people in government got caught embezzling money. A sheriff tried to frame somebody for murder. Also, I think the people in the courts have some kind of deal with the juvenile detention center, because they give kids very long sentences for minor things (6 months for being 10 minutes late to school while on probation in my case).
Small towns, in my experience, are shitholes with corrupt and authoritarian local governments, and are exploited by corporations in ways similar to third-world countries.
How are they becoming heavy drug addicts by being exposed to chemicals in a factory?
Also you talk about small towns being run by corrupt and authoritarian governments like you live in an anarchistic country.
Just listing reasons why small towns are shitholes… or at least that particular small town. People there are at a high risk of drug addiction because of “shit-life syndrome,” (which is arguably caused by the low wages of the factories).
But that’s a whole different reasoning than sticking it to “chemical factory work”
Same here in Australia? I’m 57, I’m one of the youngest around, dude I bought the place off was 87 and moving into a retirement hone.
