lol, I live in Germany and have never heard anybody outside the US referring to the Nordic model as socialism. Sanders and his followers do but some Europeans do that too? I mean we do have parties that are called social democrats or even socialists, but only for historical reasons, nobody would say they are anything else than capitalist nowadays.
socialism is not a system of government.
Socialism is defined as the government either owning OR REGULATING the means of government.
Curious, which is it? Socialism is not a system of government but a system where the government does stuff? So an absolutist monarchy where the monarch (and therefore the government) owns everything is socialism? Maybe rethink that definition.
(The average American takes less vacation time than a medieval peasant)
I don’t think you were aware of that but there is a paywall. From what I’ve gathered, it’s 150 days a year off, which is still much more than here in Germany and I guess in the North as well. So we too live in capitalism.
I think you’re one of the people who think “free markets” are synonymous with “capitalism”,
Short answer: No. But I’m not a fan of free market either. Free markets can display demand but not needs. We need a needs centered economy. But there is a thing like market socialism.
even the US employs some socialist policies.
So the US is the mixed system now? From your definitions, there at least can exist a mixed system, right? It’s a gradual difference between the US and the Nordic system and Germany is somewhere in between. And some Germans are very proud of our “soziale Marktwirtschaft” (social market economy) and maybe even call it a mixed system. Where do you draw the line?
So let’s get our definitions straight. There are different schools of thought within socialism but by enlarge, it’s a counter movement to capitalism. In a nutshell, a capitalist (as in they own capital) owns the means of production (eg a factory) and employs workers who have nothing else to sell than their work force. That’s the capitalist mode of production. This changed alot since the 19th century and this binary class system morphed into hierarchies of some kind or another.
So much for capitalism. Socialism, as I said, is counter movement. In socialism, the workers own the means of production themselves and do not need a capitalist. This can be in direct form (workers owning the factory they work in, i.e. syndicalism, this can be free market) or in the form of a workers’ state (as the Soviet Union proclaimed to be and social democrats do in a way) or, as I would prefer, in a system of councils on different levels. I’m a big fan of social ecology.
All that said, I do not think you can mix all kinds of economic systems and systems of governments. Capitalism goes well with electoral, representative democracy because both are systems of competition. Capitalism also goes well with dictatorships since both are systems of domination. All attempts to implement a socialist state, either by socialist parties within a bourgeois democracy or a revolution that leaves the state apparatus in tact, have failed and morphed into capitalism sooner or later. Socialism is by its definition a workers’ democracy and therefore only compatible with direct forms of democracy like a council republic. I’m aware that this is a very libertarian socialist (not to say anarcho-socialist) perspective and you don’t have to share it, but I hope, you can acknowledge it.
Working rn so indepth answer later but just lolled so hard that couldn’t help not answering
socialism is not a system of government.
Socialism is defined as the government either owning OR REGULATING the means of government.
Curious, which is it?
Kapparoflmaoooxdddd
You don’t understand that a government must use an economic system… for the economy.
Like do you not understand the difference between a form of government and a form of economy? Two distinct things.
Like talking about the shape and size of something. You don’t think circles are all big or small, right? You understand that shapes and sizes are different things right?
Fucking laughing my ass off here I’ll reply in depth in like 4 hours
Maybe don’t insist on the difference and then use the word “government” in your definition of socialism twice. If you don’t see any problem there, I’m not sure your answer will be worth reading
Did you read my whole comment? Because I’m not sure. But eitherway. Your definition was:
Socialism is defined as the government either owning OR REGULATING the means of government.
What even are “the means of government”? Isn’t it tautological that the government owns the means of government? That makes it to be a government in the first place, right? Or do you mean “the means of production”? Than you only define state socialism and not even that, it still fits to almost any monarchy or dictatorship. You would just define it as “not free market” which you on another spot say it is not. I’m really trying to follow you but you are not making much sense and refuse to answer me in a meaningful way.
But I understand that you seperate the two systems. I just think they are too intertwined to do so and I elaborate on that in my comment. We can agree to disagree without calling each other dumb. We can have a normal, constructive conversation about it like adults would. I have a different definition on socialism. Would you react to that? Or do I assume correctly that you did not read it?
lol, I live in Germany and have never heard anybody outside the US referring to the Nordic model as socialism. Sanders and his followers do but some Europeans do that too? I mean we do have parties that are called social democrats or even socialists, but only for historical reasons, nobody would say they are anything else than capitalist nowadays.
Curious, which is it? Socialism is not a system of government but a system where the government does stuff? So an absolutist monarchy where the monarch (and therefore the government) owns everything is socialism? Maybe rethink that definition.
I don’t think you were aware of that but there is a paywall. From what I’ve gathered, it’s 150 days a year off, which is still much more than here in Germany and I guess in the North as well. So we too live in capitalism.
Short answer: No. But I’m not a fan of free market either. Free markets can display demand but not needs. We need a needs centered economy. But there is a thing like market socialism.
So the US is the mixed system now? From your definitions, there at least can exist a mixed system, right? It’s a gradual difference between the US and the Nordic system and Germany is somewhere in between. And some Germans are very proud of our “soziale Marktwirtschaft” (social market economy) and maybe even call it a mixed system. Where do you draw the line?
So let’s get our definitions straight. There are different schools of thought within socialism but by enlarge, it’s a counter movement to capitalism. In a nutshell, a capitalist (as in they own capital) owns the means of production (eg a factory) and employs workers who have nothing else to sell than their work force. That’s the capitalist mode of production. This changed alot since the 19th century and this binary class system morphed into hierarchies of some kind or another.
So much for capitalism. Socialism, as I said, is counter movement. In socialism, the workers own the means of production themselves and do not need a capitalist. This can be in direct form (workers owning the factory they work in, i.e. syndicalism, this can be free market) or in the form of a workers’ state (as the Soviet Union proclaimed to be and social democrats do in a way) or, as I would prefer, in a system of councils on different levels. I’m a big fan of social ecology.
All that said, I do not think you can mix all kinds of economic systems and systems of governments. Capitalism goes well with electoral, representative democracy because both are systems of competition. Capitalism also goes well with dictatorships since both are systems of domination. All attempts to implement a socialist state, either by socialist parties within a bourgeois democracy or a revolution that leaves the state apparatus in tact, have failed and morphed into capitalism sooner or later. Socialism is by its definition a workers’ democracy and therefore only compatible with direct forms of democracy like a council republic. I’m aware that this is a very libertarian socialist (not to say anarcho-socialist) perspective and you don’t have to share it, but I hope, you can acknowledge it.
Working rn so indepth answer later but just lolled so hard that couldn’t help not answering
Curious, which is it?
Kapparoflmaoooxdddd
You don’t understand that a government must use an economic system… for the economy.
Like do you not understand the difference between a form of government and a form of economy? Two distinct things.
Like talking about the shape and size of something. You don’t think circles are all big or small, right? You understand that shapes and sizes are different things right?
Fucking laughing my ass off here I’ll reply in depth in like 4 hours
Maybe don’t insist on the difference and then use the word “government” in your definition of socialism twice. If you don’t see any problem there, I’m not sure your answer will be worth reading
Uh, no.
You just don’t seem to understand.
The government may utilise socialism. It’s a tool for them.
You don’t seem to understand the difference between systems of government and economic systems, no matter how I try to dumb it down for you.
Did you read my whole comment? Because I’m not sure. But eitherway. Your definition was:
What even are “the means of government”? Isn’t it tautological that the government owns the means of government? That makes it to be a government in the first place, right? Or do you mean “the means of production”? Than you only define state socialism and not even that, it still fits to almost any monarchy or dictatorship. You would just define it as “not free market” which you on another spot say it is not. I’m really trying to follow you but you are not making much sense and refuse to answer me in a meaningful way.
But I understand that you seperate the two systems. I just think they are too intertwined to do so and I elaborate on that in my comment. We can agree to disagree without calling each other dumb. We can have a normal, constructive conversation about it like adults would. I have a different definition on socialism. Would you react to that? Or do I assume correctly that you did not read it?