I feel like I’ve been kind of in the loop for most of the headlines regarding this confrontation. Yet somehow I can’t find it within myself to actually care about either side. It seems like both are lead by genocidal parties, hell bent on indoctrinating their populace into hating the other side. Yet at the same time people are able to discern which state is the good one. And some going so far as to believe that one state might even be right over the other.
So far from what I’ve read and heard, it seems that overall Isreal is just more successful militarily and is encroaching on Palestinian land, and is exhibiting control over some of it. Is that the reason why one might support Palestine? Is it the fact that Isreal has more direct power in the region and thus can easily execute its will a problematic issue for some? From what I can see, both sides have caused massive civilian casualties and neither side wants a two state solution, so neither of those reasons can be a contributing factor to side picking, right? That being said, I can’t find a reason for supporting Isreal, so does Palestine win out by default? But what of the people that support Isreal, do they do that purely because they’re an American ally? Is any of this side taking have anything to do with the insertion of Jews into the region? What is expected to be done outside of a two state solution or genocide by those taking sides?
I have a lot of questions, and I obviously don’t expect all of them to be answered in a single post. So maybe focusing on the elements you’re highly informed on would be helpful and then I can kind of piece together the details. Thank you in advance!
Okay there are more than 2 sides.
Personally I am on the side of civilians whether they are Israeli or Palestinian or Druze or Bedouin. I am also on the side of the doctors, nurses, and humanitarian aid workers. These are who I consider the Good Guys. “Look for the helpers.” - Mr Rodgers.
But to cover your question, there’s two separate issues here:
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the claims of the belligerents
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feelings about what is happening now in the Israel Gaza war
The past claims of the belligerents
I’m not going to go into this, but but it goes back to history and it’s where the side-taking on the sides of the belligerents mostly comes from, because different people have different interpretations. Legally speaking Palestine is occupied by Israel (West Bank) and blockaded by Israel (Gaza). No one can get in or out, it’s effectively controlled by Israel.
What is happening now
What is happening now is a “war” between the IDF and Hamas. People like me, who are rooting for civilians are upset about:
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proportionality (so far about 33,000 Palestinian deaths vs 1,400 Israeli deaths)
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mortality (currently over 1.5% of the population of Gaza have been killed)
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civilian mortality - high numbers of children being killed (according to aid agencies, one is killed or injured every 10 minutes)
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high numbers of humanitarian workers and medical staff being killed
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inappropriate weapon choices (hundreds of 2,000lb bombs are being dropped, for reference the US used just one in its war against Isis.
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widespread infrastructure destruction, particularly of hospitals and other important buildings
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mounting evidence of starvation in the civilian population due to blockade of aid
Personally I am against anyone treating a civilian population like this for any reason, and I believe it amounts to war crimes. I was against the killing of civilians in Myanmar, Rwanda, East Timor, and I am against it now.
Side note: The median age in Gaza is 18, meaning literally half the people in it are still children.
Edit: I haven’t given any sources cos lazy. I am happy to give them to OP or anyone in good faith (there are probably a bunch on the post history of my main which is livus@kbin.social). However, I do not speak sealionese.
good comment. the language or model that there must be “sides” to this is unfortunately an oversimplification. because it is not a two-sided or symmetric conflict. while attrocities are occuring from multiple fronts, almost everything going on can find its roots in the fact that Israel is an apartheid state, and any meaningful peace that exists in the future will only come to be by the dissolution of that apartheid regime.
Ok, from what I can tell, most of what people care about regarding the current conflict doesn’t really involve around belligerents. So I think we can safely put that on the back burner. At least for the current wave of side taking. My one question after reading most of the comments is this, how many of Israel’s violent actions against civilians directly target civilians vs targeting Hamas and have civilians stuck in the crossfire? Because I’ve heard of Hamas using civilian areas as staging grounds as an attempt to ward off enemy fire. Is Israel going and killing civilians outside of these instances?
Slightly unrelated question, are many people taking sides in the general occupation of Palistinian land, or is this newest wave side taking mostly focused on the civilians in Gaza vs Israeli force.
To answer the first question, sorry I keep breaking it into smaller components but again, separating it out makes it clearer. If we look at:
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what the IDF intentions are
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what their actions are
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what the effects of their actions are
What people think kind of depends on how well we think it matches up and whether we think the first one is actually an okay justification for the third one. Like when is it okay shoot when you can see there’s someone in the crossfire.
What their intentions are
The IDF and mainstream Israeli politicians publically stated intention is to “destroy Hamas” in order to protect the safety of Israeli citizens both in Israel and in the part of Palestine that Israel is occupying. Hamas is a broad term encompassing both militant (eg militant) and civil (eg Health Dept) organization. Some politicians have gone a lot further and said their intention is to remove most Palestinians from Gaza. Some have said that no civilians are innocent, but these are minority viewpoints.
What their actions are
This is where it gets tricky, and some of it is contested. What is common ground is that they have chosen to use an unusually large number of bombs in a built up environment full of civilians, using huge bunker buster bombs, and drone bombing of targets suggested by AI. It also involves a ground offensive, and there appear to be “kill zones.” The IDF has set itself numbers for “acceptable” number of civilians per kill, which may be high, and also permits itself to bomb hospitals and schools. Here is an article which covers some of the AI concerns. They also keep tight control of humanitarian aid and limit what enters. There are allegations that are disputed, of widespread deliberate killing of wounded and civilians and children. We may find forensic evidence in the mass graves. The IDF dispute it.
The effects of their actions
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I’ve covered this already above, but what stands out is the unusually high number of civilians and medics being killed, compared to other modern wars that involved urban warfare. To put the total mortality into perspective, during the Bosnian Genocide 3% of the population were killed over a 2-year period. 1.5% of the Gaza population have been killed in 6 months. The mortality statistics we have are for known deaths, those still buried in rubble are extra.
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Using satellite images of before and after, analysts estimate 57-60% of buildings in Gaza are destroyed, rising to 75% in Gaza City. We also know the hospitals were bombed.
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During the current war monitoring of humanitarian aid entering Gaza has drastically reduced the amount going in. (Before this war, Gaza did not function self-sufficiently. A significant part of the population (many were refugees) relied on humanitarian aid.
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NGOs on the ground report that the current numbers of starving people will meet the technical threshold for it to be designated famine, by May.
For many of those who are on the side of civilians, there is no possible justification for killing this many people to get to each millitant. International law (eg Geneva Conventions) specifies how to treat civilian populations, and many international experts think that these rules are being breached. Moreover, the blocking of humanitarian aid is problematic, whatever the rationale.
Most of us live in civilisations where we do not find it acceptable to kill innocent people as way to also kill guilty people.
Ah, I see. Given those numbers it’s pretty clear that Isreal is pretty much going scorched earth when it comes to Gaza. Good to know, thank you. I had just assumed the damages to infrastructure weren’t as extensive as they were.
Edit: I also hadn’t known about the active blocking of humanitarian aid, so that alongside some of those numbers really speaks volumes.
Edit 2: also no need to apologize, I mean I’m the one asking all the questions and you’re graciously taking your time to answer them. The fact that you’re splitting them makes sense to me. You’ve overall been very helpful and I can imagine that anyone that stumbles across this entire thread will likely also leave equally as informed as I have after reading most of it.
Alright, some of the side taking makes sense to me now.
I think it was really cool that you asked questions instead of just being content with assumptions.
Btw, here’s an article describing how epidemiologists have been able to independently verify the mortality rate. It’s from a while ago so the numbers are lower but you can still get a sense of it.
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The answer to your second question to some extentit probably depends on which country you’re in.
Generally speaking I think the people with strong opinions about land occupation already had those opinions before this war. The current wave is much more a reaction to what is happening to civilians right now.
I think the general population in the US are more likely to have pre-existing strong opinions about Israel Palestine because it’s regularly in their news, and there is a sizeable US expat population in Israel. For me personally (I live in New Zealand) the human rights situation in Gaza normally sits on my radar alongside the situations in for e.g West Papua and Western Sahara. But right now, there is an active large-scale massacre of civilians taking place in Gaza.
There are reports of Israeli forces sniping children and pregnant women. These are, in each case I’ve seen, denied by Israel but confirmed by aid workers on the ground. There are plenty of confirmed reports of children with high calibre bullet trauma to the head as cause of death. Israel precision-bombed a World Central Kitchen convoy recently. Also a children’s playground. These are just off the top of my head- there are more. I’ve seen too much footage of non-combatants being murdered for my liking. There’s a lot. And there’s no shortage of this kind of incident happening before Oct 7th. It’s a pattern of behaviour.
So, setting aside the question of whether enemy presence is a justification for the killing of civilians, the answer is yes; Israel are almost certainly killing non-combatants outside of staging areas. The sole fact that over thirteen thousand children have been killed is enough of an indicator for me that this campaign is not targeted enough.
I’m trying to keep my language neutral, but it’s difficult because it seems to me that this conflict, by the numbers, is a fight between the IDF, a highly advanced, well trained and supplied modern national military, and the Palestinians in Gaza, a blockaded civilian population. Under these circumstances, it’s hard not to choose a side you want to “win”, when winning for that side simply means being allowed to live under skies which won’t kill you and your family in an instant without warning, cause or explanation.The question of occupation of Palestine is a very complex subject. For me, the bottom line is that it is illegal, it has always been illegal, and yet Israel keep doing it, despite promising not to. This is part of the background of October 7th, but there’s much more to it. Hamas are just as bad, but it always ends up being the Palestinians that suffer. And I hold (or held) our allies, Israel to a higher standard. I hoped for better from them.
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There’s sort of 3 sides to the issue.
- A pro Israel side, which includes people that believe all of Palestinian land should also be only theirs as well as people that maybe don’t care about the land but care that Hamas is defeated and/or the Israeli hostages are saved
- Pro Hamas side: people that believe that Israel should be destroyed and Israelis killed, partly because of the damage that they have done to Palestinians
- Pro Palestinian side: Don’t want innocent Palestinians being bombed, starved or shot by Israel. Some also want a 2 state solutions implemented.
I don’t hear any real Pro Hamas people (since Hamas is very must a terrorist group), other than circumstantial (“Hamas is literally the only option Palestinians have aside the other side that is literally killing them”). Hamas basically wants to destroy Israel, which is what led to the October 7th attacks in which about 1,000 Israelis were killed. They felt that peace with Israel was not helping their goals, as Israel bombing Palestinians would help recruit more Hamas soldier with which to use to help destroy Israel.
The UN and many countries feel that despite Israel having the right to defend its citizens and attempt to infiltrate and destroy terrorists(Hamas), Israel is executing this plan in such a way that is unnecessarily killing thousands of innocent Palestinians(both through weapons but also starvation), about half of which are children.
A lot of the misinformation in regards to this topic are: “If you don’t support Israel you’re antisemitic”, “You’re either supporting Israel or you’re supporting Hamas”, “Palestinians overwhelming support Hamas”, “Israelis completely support what their government is doing”
I’m too lazy to source the above so obviously assume I’m lying/wrong (same with anybody else not posting any sources). You should read actual articles from reliable new sources, but hopefully the above gives you some information to understand what those articles are talking about.
Maybe that’s my bias, but that seems to be a very… specific way of sorting sides. Mind if I rephrase that?
- Pro Israeli side, which includes people who care that the hostages be saved. Some also want a 2 state solutions implemented.
- Pro Israeli control of Palestinians side: people that believe any Palestinian autonomy will result in a repeat of the Oct. 7th massacre, partly because of the, well, Oct. 7th massacre.
- Pro Palestinian side, which includes people who believe Israel should be destroyed and Jews killed, as well as people who maybe don’t want want Jews killed but care that Israel is defeated and/or Palestinians are not bombed.
I’d say both phrasings are about equally accurate and objective.
Just want to throw in. You said both states. Israel is a state. Palastinians do not have a state, they are under occupation and governance of the Israel state. It’s similar to South African apartheid. This isn’t two countries fighting. This is a colony that has subjugated the local population and are dealing with rebellions. Palastinians have no freedom of travel within Palestine (the geographic name of the area).
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Well, we are nearing 100 years of Israel occupation of Palestine. I would very easily argue that Israel runs an apartheid state that discriminates against Palestinians. If you’d like I can prove that to you. And of course south African president Mr. Mandala himself believed the two to be similar. Quote.
“But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”
There’s a reason south Africa today was the one to bring international charges against Israel for genocide. South Africa sees the Israel colonization and apartheid of Palestine and palastinians to be a shared struggle, identical to their oppression and their apartheid.
Most people aren’t talking about the political parties but the civilians caught up in the middle.
Israel’s government and Hamas are both fucking awful.
Very few people actually support the genocide of Palestinians or the people of Israel.
But genocide is happening to one.
This whole thing is a major political problem that has been brewing pretty much since World War II. I’m by far not an expert so I might get some details wrong but I’ll try.
During the war, millions of Jews fled from the Nazis and the Allies were wondering what to do with all those refugees. One option was British-occupied Palestine. The reasoning was that it geographically coincided with ancient Isreael, the Jewish homeland. The problem is that it had been inhabited by Muslims for over 1300 years so obviously the Arab population wasn’t too happy about giving up the region their families had lived in for generations just because some western colonial power had decided to give it to some refugees.
The plan was to split Palestine into two states - Palestine and Israel - with Jerusalem as a neutral zone under control of the United Nations. Because of the unstable situation - including terrorist attacks against the British administration - this was never fully implemented. The state of Isreael was officially founded in 1948 but there
was never any formal agreement on who controls which parts of the region. The Arabs got driven from their homes and only kept the West Bank and the Gaza Strip but were obviously never happy about that.(Edit: please see correction by @Sprawlie@lemmy.world below. The situation is even more complicated) While the general population would probably be okay with just being left in peace, there are radical groups like Hamas who want to take back what was taken from them by the British and Israel.On the other hand, nobody who lives in Israel today was involved 80 years ago when the British decided on their plan. These people were born in Israel and have lived there all their lives. So in a way, both sides just want to keep their homes. There have been several proposals for how we could solve this, including an official two states solution that would regulate the borders (obviously not favored by Palestine), a single state solution (forcing two groups who have been fighting each other for 80 years could be tricky) and reverting everything the British decided and kicking out the Jewish population (obviously not favored by Israel). There just is no good solution and so the situation in the area is heating up more and more. From their own perspectives, both sides have good reasons for what they’re doing though the way they’re doing it is obviously not acceptable.
(Edit: corrected 1400 to 1300. Math is hard)
The state of Isreael was officially founded in 1948 but there was never any formal agreement on who controls which parts of the region. The Arabs got driven from their homes and only kept the West Bank and the Gaza Strip but were obviously never happy about that.
This is one place I just want to offer some correction:
There was a formal agreement between UN/West and the Jewish people who occupied the areas that were to become Israel. The British Mandate of Palestine had a sizeable Jewish population already which is why it was also favoured.
It was the Arab nations who completely disagreed and said “NO” to the partition plans. Under which a large portion of the southern half of Israel would become Palestine-Jordan. (Jordan was originally intended to be the Palestinian/muslim portion). The WestBank was accepted as Jordanian in this agreement, as well as Gaza ownership was by Egypt. Israel would originally honour those borders.
Once the British Mandated ended and Israel formed, All the surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel immediately, Calling for all Muslims within the Israel land to leave Israel and fight against it. Israel won this war annexing the entirety of Israel instead.
Israel would not actually take Gaza or the West Bank until later wars. They took West Bank from Jordan; Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt. They would later return Sinai to Egypt as part of Peace treaty, but Egypt did not want Gaza due their own history with the Palestinian’s of the region.
As for the Muslim’s who stayed in Israel after its forming? They’re citizens and have full vote/power/rights as every single other Israeli citizen. Since Israel is a democracy with a fairly secular government (even if it’s currently ran by right wing terrorists).
Thanks for the corrections. My knowledge about early Israel is fuzzy at best.
The situation is even more complicated) While the general population would probably be okay with just being left in peace, there are radical groups like Hamas who want to take back what was taken from them by the British and Israel.
As you said in your edit, the situation is extremely complicated, because it involved groups that are historically opposed for generations, if not centuries.
Ty for the brief historical perspective I’m sure it was a very shallow overview but it tied together a lot of the other stuff I’ve heard into a way that makes more sense.
Thank you for the nice words. I just felt like with all the discussion of who did what in the last few years, people are forgetting why Israel and Palestine are fighting in the first place.
Of course there is a lot more to this. For example the fact that Jerusalem is considered a sacred place by three different major religions and so the question who controls it is not only political but also symbolic. It was literally the (official) reason for the crusades during the middle ages. In that way, a neutral Jerusalem might have actually been a good idea. Though of course we don’t know what other problems that would have caused.
A Neutral UN city not directly ran by Israel or Palestine would likely have settled a lot of tensions. Firstly, Israel couldn’t claim it their capital, which has been a major pain point for decades now. Something Trump further inflamed by moving the US Consulate to Israel in it.
If it were made a place where all religions of all type are allowed in all parts as a historical landmark, maybe there’d be a peaceful place where the three Bbrahamic religions could actually find common ground.
Instead they created a religious McGuffin to fight over.
Except a macguffin can be like. Stolen and/or destroyed. You don’t have to murder everybody standing on it to claim it you can just be a regular dickhead and sucker punch the guy and walk off with it. If people get tired enough of people punching each other over it they can either lock it up better or just light it on fire. Land has to have people probably homeless or dead to change hands and almost no matter what you do to it it’ll still be a part of the surface area of this rock we’re stuck on or around for the conceivable future.
real life lore has multiple videos around the entire Israel Palestine complex, this one for starters:
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=7Jyc-LzXqk0
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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I am by no means highly informed, but so far, I didn’t see a few things I think should be mentioned.
Both Israel’s government and Hamas are definitely bad guys who found stirring hate towards each other a convenient way of staying in power. After all, If you have the stongest rhetoric towards someone who wants to kill people of your country, of course those people will vote for you and you can get away with things you otherwise couldn’t.
There’s also another side which I haven’t seen explicitly mentioned and should be considered: surrounding islamic countries (who are surely not a homogeneous group). They are in a good position to help palestinian civilians, but don’t do very much for various reasons I know relatively little about.
They are in a good position to help palestinian civilians, but don’t do very much for various reasons I know relatively little about.
Palestine is under occupation. Every time anyone tries to help (like aid workers or even NATO), Israel attacks them. People say let them resettle in Egypt. They shouldn’t have to resettle, lose their homes, Egypt shouldn’t have to provide refugees services, etc. People always say, “Other Muslim countries should help them so they must not care.” False.
I’ll let others fill in the history of the rest of it. TLDR: Palestinian civilians are not all Hamas, but they are treated as such.
It can simultaneously be true that Palestinians should not be evicted from their homes and also that nearby countries (including Israel by the way) have an obligation to assist with the refugee crisis. There is no perfect solution to this crisis, and given the lack of collective consensus, each individual actor should be pursuing the least bad option available to them. I think for neighboring countries this includes letting in refugees at a minimum.
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Israel responded with batshit overwhelming force to a terrorist attack by a contingent of Palestinian nationals and has comitted numerous war crimes against innocent civilians in the process.
Boy does that sound familiar
I can spot a bad faith question when I see one, and your comments confirm it.
I’m curious as to which side I was taking before I submitted this discussion. Because I think it’s quite clear that I simply thought this was just another battle in the middle east sparked by land and racial tensions, and despite one side being much better equipped for extermination than the other, it wasn’t particularly notable. My language doesn’t feel pro Hamas, maybe It could be seen as pro Israeli because of that though. But I feel like that’s exactly what everyone in this thread has been pointing out, that there aren’t just two sides, and people aren’t picking between Israel and Hamas (or even Palestine for that matter).
Heck I’m not even arguing with anyone here except you, so what do you think I could possibly be trying to achieve? Let me remind you the community we’re currently discussing this in is !outoftheloop@lemmy.world .
Shaun’s video on Palestine is the most rational take that I’ve heard so far.
Check out this video of Michael Brooks succinctly explaining Israel/Palestine even before Oct 7.
Because everything is sports teams also virtue signalling
Nailed it. Nobody ever has ever actually cared about anything but themselves.
Just in brief, ignoring some history and so on, Gaza has been under Israeli occupation for a while now, controlling essentially everything that goes in and out, including people. Hamas gained power there, and legit, the Israeli government has given resources to Hamas to keep them going, supposedly as an excuse to keep their thumb on the Palestinian population.
A lot of people supported the creation of a Jewish state coming out of WWII and the holocaust, but currently, and especially because of just how hard the Israeli military is going now, it’s becoming impossible to not see how much the Israeli government just wants to take control of all the land and wipe out the Palestinian people.
Of course, there’s more going on, and some people might disagree with my simplification, but I think this is as good of a simple explanation of at least my understanding trying to follow what’s been going on in the region since the early aughts.
If your genuine opinion on a genocide is that the side being subject to the genocide is “as genocidal” as the side perpetrating it, then you’re too far gone to be worth convincing.
I think people just like to get mad about something.
This is as good of a thing as any to be mad about.
To everyone who takes offense to this: I’m not saying you don’t have reasons. I’m sure you do. Please don’t share them with me. I’m so far removed from the conflict and I have so many problems of my own that I cannot spare any thought for this war. My only sentiment on it is that I hope that innocent people stop getting killed needlessly. I don’t care what side they’re on, if they’re not intentionally part of the fighting, and they die as a result of the fighting, that’s the kind of person I’m talking about. With a special additional note of the same regarding children. Kids can’t really comprehend the reason for the fighting and death and therefore are incapable of “taking a side”, so they’re especially innocent in all of this.
In summary, stop killing people. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
From the river of stars to the sea of galaxies, humanity will reign supreme.
Or something, inunno
