Well… I’ve moved all the way into “Fuck Israel” territory.
Is the reason we are showering Israel with weapons so that we can maintain a justified military influence in the middle east? And is the need for such influence because of fucking oil? Are we helping commit genocide because of oil? Again?!
because of oil?
Drone bases and regional hegemony, essentially. The Saudis, and Israel are who we use to try and keep Iran from controlling the region. I honestly don’t understand how Turkey stays out of the proxy war. They play a similarly delicate game with Russia and the black sea by doing both proxy conflicts and cooperation. The Kurds and Hamas are kind of in a gray area.
As we’ve recently learned it isn’t just about oil. It’s about maritime trade more broadly. One of the explicit purposes of the US Navy is to defend maritime trade. The Suez canal and the Persian Gulf are two of the most important maritime trade routes.
We do not need Israel for that. We have bases in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Djibouti, UAE, and finally a peacekeeping force in the Sinai Peninsula.
There’s also a strong element of religious fundamentalism. Certain sects of American Christianity believe that the existence of Israel is key to the end of the world coming, and they want that. Those sects are bizarrely popular and influential, and are happy to nudge American foreign policy in whatever ways keeps Israel existing and embroiled in war.
We absolutely do not need Israel for strategic purposes. If anything our ME policy is built around protecting them as much as it’s built around oil producing countries.
“Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can’t help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East.” – John Sheehan, S.J.
It’s an oversimplification but essentially true. The pissed off middle east we’ve known our whole lives is kind of because of this bullshit
I think it’s mostly inertia
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My theory is they want to nuke Iran right now and the west appeases them similar to China and North Korea
… Unsubstantiated of course
I don’t understand how anyone can fire upon someone holding a white flag, they should be tried and sentenced.
Because Israelis are raised from birth to view everyone in Gaza as sub-human scum who would kill them at first opportunity if given one. The far right government propaganda has done a number on the population.
Yeah: extreme rabid violent racism.
It’s why I started calling them Nazis: because of all the variants of Fascism, at the moment with all that we’re seeing in Gaza it’s Nazism that’s the one closest what is being done by Israel.
If you think about it, systematic state-level extreme racism is only natural for an etnostate created during WWII and heavilly reliant on the way of thinking that lead to WWII - that of viewing people not as individual humans whose worth or unworth is defined by their actions and the actions they support but rather as born member of etnicities, with everybody of an etnicity judged as a group to be worthy or unworthy.
So reliant was Israel on etnic identitarianism for its identity and reason to be that when they reached the same level of power and confidence they behave just like all other such nations when they had such power, including the very one which is the Evil Opressor in Israel’s Founding Story: Nazi Germany.
I think that’s fair.
Is the presumption that any confusion from labelling them as such is actually not anywhere near the value of like pointing out the alleged truthfulness which comes from the analogy made by labelling people in Israel as such?
Sorry for the direct language I have ASD, I’m just trying to understand what people mean usually but it’s been told to me that it is rude or offensive so I apologize if that is the case.
Well, notice how I never say “Israelis”, but rather “Israel”, “authorities of Israel”, “the leaders of Israel” or the “government of Israel” (and not just in this post but more broadly).
That’s because it would indeed be massivelly unfair to label all Israelis on the actions of the state of Israel: even if the country is supposedly a Democracy and even if it was a perfect Democracy (and this latter it definitelly isn’t) we can at most claim that most Isrealis support the actions of their government and hence those that do can be judged on that support, never that Israelis in general can be judged on that. One can only pass judgment on individual people (Israelis or otherwise) based on what those individues support and how they act.
So whilst criticising the actions of the nation of Israel, executed on the orders of the elected government of Israel, which was supposedly elected and represents a majority of Israelis, I’m trying hard to not label all Israelis as a group because it would be unfair to the many Israelis that don’t support this shit and, as you rightly point out, it would be quite the hypocrisy for me to complain about others treating people as part of groups and then go and myself do just that.
PS: I have no problem with direct language and in fact vastly prefer it like that, mostly because my core adult growth years were mostly lived in The Netherlands and the Dutch tend to culturally be quite direct. That said, thank you for considering that the person on the other side might feel that direct language is unpleasant.
Ah yes very fair. I did not do a close reading and missed that, I did not notice or see how careful you were with your language, your explanation is much appreciated!
Do you give any credit to Hamas for holding their families as human shields or for decades of suicide bombings and martyrdom?
Weird that Israel has an international coalition of western powers and respected countries behind it, and the coalition behind Palestine is as follows:
- Algeria
- Bangladesh
- Boliva
- Brazil
- Columbia
- Cuba
- Egypt
- Hondura
- Iran
- Iraq
- Jordan
- Malaysia
- Namibia
- North Korea
- Pakistan
- Qatar
- Syria
- Turkey
- Tunisia
- Venezuela
Hamas also has a number of non-state affiliates that support it including:
- Islamic Jihad
- Mujahedeen
- Houthis
- Hezbollah
- Martyr’s Brigade
Really, these are the friends of your friends? You sure you didn’t get tricked? I mean, here you are taking an absolutely ridiculous position so you can stand up for suicide bombers and jihadists.
Sort of seems like it’s more about the fact that Israel desires to be a democracy but is surrounded by Islamic fundamentalists who want to subjugate people under authoritarian theocracies and ancient superstition with zero possibility of granting lasting human rights for tens of millions of people.
The world is not going to miss Hamas after its gone, least of all the human shields Hamas forces to stay behind and be bombed whenever Israel warns people that they are striking a nearby military target.
Oh, the irony of claiming Palestinians are dying because Hamas uses them as human shields under a video were an IDF soldier straight of murders a Palestinian with a white flag.
That’s the very definition of self-disproven bullshit.
Also one wonders how exactly Hamas’ use of Palestinians as human shields would explain members of the Israeli state calling Palestinians (not Hamas, Palestinians) “human animals” and “violent”, the kind of talk which is neatly and easilly explained by members of the Israeli government being rabid racists and something which is even consistent with every single thing they’ve ever said about Palestinians as well as their actions - lots of illogical and falacious argumentative contortions are required to force the “human shields” theory to explain all sorts of statements and actions by the Israeli authorities but the “rabid racist” theory just straight up fits like a glove (Occan’s Razor easilly applies here).
Further, you provide a wonderful example of the rabid racism I mention, by immediatelly going on and on about Hamas to justify killing Palestinians, as if all Palestinians are the same and hence all Hamas and deserving of the same fate.
C’mon, just admit your major hard-on from seeing the “lesser races” being “put in their place” and stop the hypocrite instantly self-disproven bullshit rant. At least you would be deserving of a little bit of respect for your honesty.
Nah, I’m not impressed by the unscripted remarks of a few extremist members of the Israeli government, most especially when that rhetoric does not match the facts on the ground.
This war is about protecting Israel from an existential threat. Israel is deserving of that protection because it is a democracy. It’s really as simple as that. The Palestinian people have had 100 years to stop deploying terrorism as a method of achieving political ends and they have utterly failed. After October 7, enough is enough.
I never once said anything about any civilians deserving this fate. However, it is not Israel that put them there. It is Hamas. Period.
of a few extremist members of the Israeli government,
Including the ones in charge of the security forces…
Wow, that’s very nice. It still doesn’t match the activity or facts on the ground.
If the ground activity match the rhetoric of the three or four people you are talking about, it would look like this:
-
There would be direct military strikes on roads, power infrastructure, and water infrastructure without any pretext of tunnels or Hamas fighters being present;
-
There would be no humanitarian aid corridors;
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There would not be phone call, text message, leaflet, and roof knock warnings before every bombing;
-
Every day there would be dozens or hundreds of videos of soldiers with rifles or tanks with machine guns opening fire on large groups of civilians;
-
The civilian death toll would be way, way higher than 1% of the population (1% of Gaza, 0.4% of all Palestinians) after four months;
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The numbers of daily casualties would be going up and up instead of trending downward as they have been week after week.
-
Yeah, because it’s absolutelly normal everywhere in the world for government ministers to deem a whole etnicity “human animals” and suggest nuking a neighbouring enclave and not be kicked out of that government before the day is over.
Also the idea that a country with fighter jets, tanks and even nukes is under extential threat from a bunch of murders from with homemade rockets from a neighbouring country whose land they’ve been stealing for over half a century, would already be unbelieveable in the story of a Fantasy book, but trying to pass that as reality is really taking the piss out of everybody else.
Go pull the other one.
It seems like you don’t know enough about this conflict to really have an opinion.
The existential threat would be the organized and internationally funded terrorist organization operating with impunity within Israel’s borders under the ideology of Islamic Jihad.
The terrorists here are also supported by Iran.
Whatever hope Palestine may have had for a Tuesday solution ended on October 7 when when Hamas sold out its people and its country in order to do 1,200 murders.
For your convenience:
Plan Dalet and Declassified Massacres
1967 war Declassified
Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations
Palestinian Prisoners in Israel and Military Court
Child abuse of Palestinian prisoners
Palestinians lack civil rights
Occupation and 50 years of dispossession
Arab League advocating for unified state 1948
Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
How the US became the ally of Israel
Arab Israelis are not equal including Education (2001 report)
Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)
Wow, appreciate the resources. Commenting to view this later…
Thanks. I also recommend the books Ilan Pappe has done if you want a more academic approach. A lot of this is independent verification of his work that I’ve found.
Hmm weird the Israeli who I knew wasn’t like that. Sorry to interrupt your broad generalizations
Edit: downvoters mad that I know Israelis who aren’t hateful? That actually surprises you? Think I’m lying? People are fucking weird.
That’s anecdotal evidence. Even accepting it as true, which I do, it does not dispute anything I said about the actual, verifiable, systemic brainwashing going on in Israel re: Palestine.
Don’t believe me? How about a video of a former Zionist Israeli man discussing just that: https://x.com/ME_Observer_/status/1731160875308888191?s=20
I’m a Palestinian and I want to thank you for this video. I always wondered what would make indoctrinated Zionists see the wrongs of their actions. This guy found a formula that works: go there and talk to them.
I recommend this documentary interviewing Settlers: https://youtu.be/Eac1l1ozfLc?feature=shared
Especially at minute 10:30
I believe you, but that is separate from what I’m saying. For example, I was brainwashed to think America is the best country on Earth. If it worked, it was temporary as I didn’t believe that by age 20, and I’m far from alone. So I’m just saying that just because there is brainwashing going on there, doesn’t mean “Israelis think Palestinians are sub-human”.
I agree that generalizations don’t make sense. But do you mean they weren’t raised to view Gazans as subhuman or that they don’t look down on Gazans as a grown-up?
Both
Good to know that, I put a lot of faith in Israelis who rise against their own government.
Well I’m not saying their parents are opposed to their government entirely, but they absolutely don’t consider anyone “subhuman”. I haven’t spoken to them in years so I don’t know their take on what’s happening now, but I’d be willing to bet they would at least admit it’s vastly disproportionate to the Hamas actions
Do let us know if you talk to them. Always nice to hear a different perspective and an example that breaks the stereotype.
Uncivilized has a pretty good short videoon what makes the israeli’s act this way . They are gaslighted into oblivion from birth to believe that Palestinians are the literal Naiz’s
If you see that person as an insect, a pest, not a person, it would be like swatting a mosquito. We are witnessing genocide.
I agree. Hamas is trying to eradicate the Palestinians by using them as human shields to gain sympathy for its cause. They call it martyrdom and they are proud as hell to have their families die as “true Palestinians” but let’s start calling it what it is.
Wtf are you talking about? This guy was trying to get his mother and brother out and evacuated and then was shot holding a white flag. Please point out the Hamas in the video using anyone as a human shield.
It’s this thinking that causes this Nazi shit to happen.
Nah the Nazi shit was a massive and organized campaign of extermination. It was planned and intentional.
It’s a stupid comparison. This is one bad shooting in a war zone. Along with a few others, doesn’t make it anything like the Nazis.
Hamas’s human shield strategy, however, is an organized campaign of extermination, planned and intentional.
I’m also not talking about the guy in the video. Seems like he was murdered, and by a soldier, which makes it a war crime. One war crime, or a dozen war crimes, or a hundred, does not change the cassus belli or the lawful nature of the larger war itself.
No different than 1 or 12 or 100 guys selling drugs on a street corner would make anyone standing on the street corner a drug dealer; it doesn’t.
When it comes to human shields, the only independent verification back in 2014 is of Weapons (not rockets) hidden at a vacant school, situated btwn 2 UNRWA schools housing displaced people, by a Palestinian armed group. The Guardian journalists had encountered a couple individuals in 2014 too. Yet none of those come remotely close to making hospitals and schools bombing targets. Even if all the IDF claims were true, that does not exempt those hospitals and schools as protected under international law.
And let’s just conveniently ignore how much the IDF uses human shields while we’re at it
Delusional. They are using human shields right now and it has caused tens of thousands of needless deaths. That’s what they wanted though.
Delusional with sources. Got it. You don’t need to make things up about Hamas for people not to like them. They have done atrocities such as terrorism, certainly. Doesn’t change the fact that all Palestinian people deserve emancipation.
It’s like how cops shoot people with their hands up. Guess where those cops get their training.
IDF Nazi’s on live TV.
Moment of the civilian being shot in the video is at 2:40
Warning: it’s tough but the imagery is palpable. The white flag they were using to show surrender turns red as they use it to staunch his wound.
To avoid this, Gazan civilians who are out in public should wear black clothing and masks, and move tactically between points of cover.
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Automod makes me sad
I’ve been watching countless videos of unarmed civilians being shot and killed. Children running away and being shot. Mothers walking their children being sniped. Empty university buildings being filled with explosives and blown up. Hospitals being bombed and people being sniped through windows. There’s basically no doubt left in my mind that the Israeli military and by extension the government are terrorist forces. In fact them killing more people than Hamas ever killed makes them the biggest terrorists in the region.
The only thing that can end this war is Americans flipping support and to stop obstructing the UN security resolutions. Unfortunately Genocide Joe is probably not watching the same news we all are.
Unfortunately Genocide Joe is probably not watching the same news we all are.
This is a weird comment as it implies that Joe Biden has less information about what is going on in Gaza than the average person who watches the news.
He undoubtedly has more information about what’s going on than most people who aren’t there but he also has different motives. Where you or I might view genocide as unacceptable under any circumstances, he’s viewing it through a lens of constantly needing to maintain and grow American power and resources. He believes that the US relationship with Israel furthers that goal so Israel performing genocide gets a pass. He rationalizes it by believing that whatever is (capitalism’s definition of) good for America is good for all Americans.
They might be saying that they don’t give the same weight to the kinds of information on ‘the same news’ perhaps because there’s other stuff he’s paying attention to. Idk, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. I think it’s easy to say people at the top of the political pyramid don’t value human lives the same as those at the base.
He probably goes straight to bed right after he verbatim reads whatever note Netanyahu gives him.
An IDF statement read: "It is imperative to emphasise that the alarming, libelous and a gross mischaracterisation of the war with these despicable accusations can only be deemed as an extension of Hamas’ propaganda effort to defame the IDF
Defamation? Libel? Who are you going to sue, and in what court? Fucking idiots.
I’m pretty sure the world court would be the ones with jurisdiction. Maybe Bibi could stop by The Hague and ask about how to get that case going…
Israel is a terrorist state perpetrating a genocide
I agree with the spirit of what you are saying but I think there is a real point to make about how Israel can’t really be a terrorist state because it holds such an unequal power over its perceived enemies in Gaza both from the perspective of military might and also from the perspective of control over basic infrastructure like electricity and running water.
So long we see terrorism only through the lens of a morale choice to engage in warfare in a dishonorable way and not also as a form of armed resistance resorted to by actors who literally don’t have the capacity to fight what we nebulously define as a war (which this current conflict is not, it is genocide), than we will always be unintentionally ceding the conversation to authoritarian rightwing hawks who can label anyone a terrorist for resisting a far superior military force.
Hamas are called terrorists primarily as a form of morale condemnation, and while in no way am I condoning terrorism it really has to be understood as first and foremost a military strategy undertaken by political actors without the capacity to fight a traditional war. The second Hamas amassed its troops (as required for any large military operation) Israel would carpet bomb the area. If Hamas rolled out a line of absurdly obsolete tanks with no optics, fire stabilization, night vision, or modern armor and with virtually no ammunition and tried to launch a ground war into Israel, rightwing/pro-Israel talking heads would supposedly find that more honorable than terrorism… but obviously Israel would be able to utterly wipe that force off the face of the earth in minutes with the combined military industrial complex of the US and Israel.
Israel cannot be a terrorist state because its military can mount an armored offensive with some of the most advanced tanks in the world all the way through gaza and back while facing no serious resistance, with air superiority the whole time. When Israel commits violence, it is authoritarian state violence. It is genocide. I think calling it terrorism muddies the point. Terrorism is the attempt to create a political force when an actor does not possess control of a society, Israel possesses full physical control of Gaza.
I agree though, all the negative connotations you attribute to Israel by calling them a terrorist state I agree with!
I disagree that state actions can’t be considered terrorism, even given the overwhelming power differential. Israel has and continues to conduct terrorist acts in this “war”, which makes them a terrorist state in my thinking. Just because they give press conferences in the nightly news, or conduct air strikes, or poses advanced weapons my taxes paid for doesn’t make it less terroristic.
They’ve wrapped a terrorist campaign in the trappings of a traditional war to convince us they’re not terrorists, but I believe they are. If their actions are not terrorism, what do we call it? It’s clearly not a war as you point out. It’s also more than just state violence, the entire campaign is genocidal but at the same time their tactics are those of terrorists.
Incidents like killing civilians waving white flags in the street with impunity highlight this. It’s not just in Gaza this is happening in the west bank as well. It’s not about a specific political group, many Israelis just hate all Palestinians and kill them where they find them. That’s how terrorists behave.
I’d argue that not distinguishing between regular forces and civilians is another classic tactic of terrorists. Israel is famous for this, their penchant for collective punushment bears that out. Blowing up apartment buildings to get one Hamas commander, knocking down your family home and annexing your land because your cousin launched a rocket or whatever other atrocious shit they’ve done this week.
Concocking false pretenses to commit war crimes is another terrorist tendency, although I’m sure the IDF will find that command bunker under a hospital any day now.
Another example stands out to me in this conflict, if you starve a single ethnic or religious group because they don’t believe in the same imaginary sky god you do, that’s terrorism. When you operate an apartheid state and your population subjugates a different ethnic group in every aspect of life due to their beliefs, that’s terrorism. When you conduct a “war” that kills mostly civilians, women, and children, that’s terrorism.
All of these terrorist tactics set the pretext for genocide, which is what we’re witnessing I agree fully on that. My take on Israel is you gotta call a spade a spade, and Israel is a terrorist state.
There’s a long cut, and the camera zooms in on them before the shots. It’s pretty easy to spot that there’s context that is missing.
It’s probably 50-50 if that context would change anything in reality, but the fact it’s missing could mean anything from the cameraman just getting more background footage to the group putting away their firearms after taking potshots at soldiers. Most likely, it’s somewhere in between all that and they were warned verbally to turn around.
It’s all a conspiracy to malign the most moral army in the world
/s
Hi. I see from your name you’re a developer. I’m a combat veteran. There’s no more context needed to determine this is a war crime they were slowly walking towards them with a white flag. At worst they should be taken prisoner and removed from the combat area quickly and safely.
You can bet many Hamas terrorists already put up a white flag, as IDF testimony say they were already tricked by false “white flags”.
Heck, 3 hostages were killed by the IDF because it was near a fighting area, where Hamas terrorists used the same tactics as the hostages - writing in Hebrew, waving white flags, shouting for help.
The IDF either really suck at recognizing a threat (highly unlikely) or they learned from their mistakes of listening to anyone who isn’t verified friendly.
This whole war is such a tragedy…
Bro… Thisishamas . com is a website created by Israel. It’s literally propaganda aimed at convincing you that Israel is justified in what they’re doing. In no way is it trustworthy at all.
To be clear it’s hosted in the US but wix is an Israeli owned software company.
The company was previously reported to encouraged employees to “create videos and creative campaigns” to “support Israel’s narrative”.
Also the website owner has redacted their name for privacy and all available information points to it being created by wix itself. source
Its funny you go around to apologize for IDF while citzen of Israel, and news from Israel are criticizing what is going on.
It is okay, any military are most likely to commit war crime, instead of apologizing hold them responsible…
Oh those famous threatening acts, writing in the language of the soldiers! How dare they use the Israeli’s language!
And shooting civilians is a war crime every day of the week. No matter what else is happening. The only possible excuse is, “they ran out into the street during an active firefight and got hit by bullets that were already fired.”
