Their argument is that because he did not use the exact word “support” in respect to the Constitution, that he is not able to be excluded from holding office in the US even if he did commit seditious acts. He is saying that his oath to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution” is entirely different than an oath to “support” it. It’s nonsense, but one judge (in Colorado, I believe?) has already provided legitimacy to that argument, so… the stupid argument now has judicial precedent.
Edit: Correcting my mistake about the Judge’s verdict. The judge did not uphold the argument that the Presidential oath was not to “support” the Constitution. Instead, the Judge was convinced by Trump’s team that the President is not an “officer of the United States”. Therefore, Trump took no oath as an Officer of the United States, and, thus, Section 3 of the 14th Amendment (which exclude someone who swore such an oath, who then incites an insurrection from holding federal or state office) simply doesn’t apply to someone who has only sworn an oath as President.
That judge is insane. The word “officer” literally means “one who holds office”. This has always been the dictionary definition of the word. What the fuck is that judge smoking?!
The most convincing part is the other places in the constitution which set up the presidency in opposition to Officers of the United States. However, it’s far from clear cut, as people definitely did think of and refer to the president as being an Officer of the United States.
I’m afraid that’s not the right kind of logic. Laws don’t always use words with the exact same meaning throughout, especially when considering a body of law rather than a single document. And here we’re not even talking about an inconsistency within the constitution, but consistency between a clause in it and the usage of people in other contexts. Suppose you have a document which says:
The Field Marshal may appoint officers as he sees fit
Clearly that does not mean the Field Marshal can appoint a new Field Marshal, so in that document we may think “officers” doesn’t include Field Marshal. On the other hand in general usage, Field Marshal clearly is an officer. Let’s say later on in the document there’s a clause which says:
Generals, Lieutenant generals, major generals, brigadiers, colonels, lieutenant colonels, majors, captains, lieutenants and other officers are eligible for…
Do we think that “other officers” should include the Field Marshal, here? Sure, we know that in general usage, he is an officer. But also, why did whoever wrote this start with General and then work their way down? Wouldn’t they have included the Field Marshal, the most important guy, if they meant for him to be included? Is it not more likely that “other officers” only includes the lower ranks? Besides, in this document we have evidence that “officer” is not always used to include Field Marshal, because he can’t appoint a new Field Marshal.
Now in the actual case it’s not exactly the same: there are only three things listed besides “officer of the United States” so the argument from the ordering is not as strong. But the argument that officer in general usage included the presidency is also less strong - military ranks are much better defined.
I’m not trying to convince you the argument is right, but to allow you to see the logic of it.
Frankly, there’s a lot of it that’s creative reading of something so you don’t have to spend 6 months fighting an even worse battle. Also, turns out six people can look at the exact same sentence and come away with six different interpretations, so there’s a good deal of legitimate disagreement on meaning.
The judge said that the goverment didn’t have the power to keep him off a primary ballot, since that’s not an election to an office. The actual election is up in the air
That’s not quite correct. The judge specifically concluded that the Section 3 clause of the 14th Amendment that would exclude someone from holding office after inciting an insurrection simply did not matter for the presidency. They were somehow convinced that the President is not an “officer of the United States”, so Section 3 did not apply. I genuinely don’t understand how they were convinced of that. But they basically concluded that a sitting or former Congressman, Judge or soldier who commits insurrection can never hold office again without Congressional pardon, but someone who has only held the office of President like Trump can commit insurrection and not face similar consequences. Like that makes any sense.
It may not matter for the presidency, but it absolutely matters for the Electoral College. Read the 14th amendment again: even if it doesn’t apply to the president himself, it explicitly applies to the electors of the president.
Trump was declared an insurrectionist. If an electoral vote for Trump can be considered giving him “aid or comfort”, any elector intending to vote for him is unqualified to serve as an elector.
Technically, we don’t elect the president. We elect the electors who elect the president. Those electors are required to swear an oath, under 5 USC §3331.
Any elector who intends to vote for Trump is giving “aid or comfort” to a known insurrectionist, which disqualifies them from serving as an elector. They can only be an elector until they try to cast a vote for insurrectionist Trump.
Their argument is that because he did not use the exact word “support” in respect to the Constitution, that he is not able to be excluded from holding office in the US even if he did commit seditious acts. He is saying that his oath to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution” is entirely different than an oath to “support” it. It’s nonsense, but one judge (in Colorado, I believe?)
has already provided legitimacy to that argument, so… the stupid argument now has judicial precedent.Edit: Correcting my mistake about the Judge’s verdict. The judge did not uphold the argument that the Presidential oath was not to “support” the Constitution. Instead, the Judge was convinced by Trump’s team that the President is not an “officer of the United States”. Therefore, Trump took no oath as an Officer of the United States, and, thus, Section 3 of the 14th Amendment (which exclude someone who swore such an oath, who then incites an insurrection from holding federal or state office) simply doesn’t apply to someone who has only sworn an oath as President.
That judge is insane. The word “officer” literally means “one who holds office”. This has always been the dictionary definition of the word. What the fuck is that judge smoking?!
He’s smoking his fat bribes from the rich cunts that run the country.
You can read her judgement here: https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/02nd_Judicial_District/Denver_District_Court/11_17_2023 Final Order.pdf
The most convincing part is the other places in the constitution which set up the presidency in opposition to Officers of the United States. However, it’s far from clear cut, as people definitely did think of and refer to the president as being an Officer of the United States.
Removed by mod
I’m afraid that’s not the right kind of logic. Laws don’t always use words with the exact same meaning throughout, especially when considering a body of law rather than a single document. And here we’re not even talking about an inconsistency within the constitution, but consistency between a clause in it and the usage of people in other contexts. Suppose you have a document which says:
Clearly that does not mean the Field Marshal can appoint a new Field Marshal, so in that document we may think “officers” doesn’t include Field Marshal. On the other hand in general usage, Field Marshal clearly is an officer. Let’s say later on in the document there’s a clause which says:
Do we think that “other officers” should include the Field Marshal, here? Sure, we know that in general usage, he is an officer. But also, why did whoever wrote this start with General and then work their way down? Wouldn’t they have included the Field Marshal, the most important guy, if they meant for him to be included? Is it not more likely that “other officers” only includes the lower ranks? Besides, in this document we have evidence that “officer” is not always used to include Field Marshal, because he can’t appoint a new Field Marshal.
Now in the actual case it’s not exactly the same: there are only three things listed besides “officer of the United States” so the argument from the ordering is not as strong. But the argument that officer in general usage included the presidency is also less strong - military ranks are much better defined.
I’m not trying to convince you the argument is right, but to allow you to see the logic of it.
The fuck Simon Says argument is this? Are we in kindergarten?
I’m no lawyer, but I swear 99% of law is laughable semantics like this.
America does produce 4x the lawyers expected per capita, and they’ve gotta do something to get paid, so … yeah.
Frankly, there’s a lot of it that’s creative reading of something so you don’t have to spend 6 months fighting an even worse battle. Also, turns out six people can look at the exact same sentence and come away with six different interpretations, so there’s a good deal of legitimate disagreement on meaning.
The judge said that the goverment didn’t have the power to keep him off a primary ballot, since that’s not an election to an office. The actual election is up in the air
That’s not quite correct. The judge specifically concluded that the Section 3 clause of the 14th Amendment that would exclude someone from holding office after inciting an insurrection simply did not matter for the presidency. They were somehow convinced that the President is not an “officer of the United States”, so Section 3 did not apply. I genuinely don’t understand how they were convinced of that. But they basically concluded that a sitting or former Congressman, Judge or soldier who commits insurrection can never hold office again without Congressional pardon, but someone who has only held the office of President like Trump can commit insurrection and not face similar consequences. Like that makes any sense.
It may not matter for the presidency, but it absolutely matters for the Electoral College. Read the 14th amendment again: even if it doesn’t apply to the president himself, it explicitly applies to the electors of the president.
Trump was declared an insurrectionist. If an electoral vote for Trump can be considered giving him “aid or comfort”, any elector intending to vote for him is unqualified to serve as an elector.
You’re missing up the cases, the one in Minnesota is the one where they kept him on the Primary ballot, for the reason you cited
Technically, we don’t elect the president. We elect the electors who elect the president. Those electors are required to swear an oath, under 5 USC §3331.
Any elector who intends to vote for Trump is giving “aid or comfort” to a known insurrectionist, which disqualifies them from serving as an elector. They can only be an elector until they try to cast a vote for insurrectionist Trump.