Edit: lots of opinions below. Biometrics are a username, a thing you are. Finger printed can be taken from your laptop with a little powder and masking tape.
Better put would be stop using biometrics for single factor authentication. A token can be stolen, or a passcode/push notification can be phished/bypassed as easy as biometrics can.
You are not wrong, but you we should understand what class of attacks we are protecting against. Will biometrics stop your maid from using your device? Probably less. Will it stop the FBI? Not so sure.
Now, you may say, an FBI raid is not what you worry about on a daily basis. Agree.
If you are trying to keep the photos on your device safe from snooping, your good. Attacker needs the device and your fingerprint.
When we talk online accounts, I’d count device+fingerprint as one factor. Sure, the maid from the example above can’t login into your gmail without your fingerprint, but most attacks are online. Your device sends a token to gmail, a cookie, a String; that’s like a password. One factor.
Technically, it’s slightly better than a password, because this token can be short-lived (although often it’s not), could be cryptographic signature to be used exactly once (although…), you cannot brute-force guess the token… But IF the token leaks, the attacker has full access (or enough to cause damage).
That’s why I would suggest an independent second factor, such as password. Yes, a password. Not for your daily routine (biometrics+device is much better), but maybe for high-risk operations.
No, wrong. Still two factor because your fingerprint plus your device.
These authentication methods aren’t as simple as the two factor Google Authenticator 6 digit number. They are cryptographically secure keys. Even if someone finds out what the token is, they still cannot send a valid request because they cannot generate a digitally signed request using the private key locked in your device’s hardware, unlocked by your biometrics.
Passwords are inherently insecure and relatively easy to break. Digital signatures and secure tokens are almost unbreakable
You’re right. By most definitions of MFA biometrics would pass. A biometric is something you are, and the device is something you have. My comment is more for privacy zealous people, who are concerned that they could be compromised by governments without a “something you know” component.
In Doom I had to rip off a dudes arm to gain access to the security controls on core cooling shutdown. If you don’t want to lose an arm to stop a demon horde, you’re better off just using your girlfriend’s fingerprints
If your interview involves telling me a username is “something you are” rather than “something you know”, I’m running away from that job as fast as I can.
By this same logic, other people could know your fingerprint since it’s “something you are”. No, other people cannot know your fingerprint. It’s a complex mathematical equation to a computer. This is such a terrible take.
No, this username is one of the names I’ve chosen for the accounts I use on lemmy. It does not identify me, it identifies the lemmy accounts that I just so happen to know the password for. I was just about to create an account with your username on another instance but meh, that’s too much work. Just imagine me having done that and think about what you just wrote.
I would be vary of the people agreeing with you on something so basic yet so wrong.
An authentication factor is a unique identifier that shows that you possess something that others don’t. Biometrics are something you are because your fingerprints, your retinas, or your DNA are (mostly) unique to you. A security key is something you have because unique cryptographic material is saved on the hardware device that cannot be replicated somewhere else (which is why many mobile authenticators really aren’t). And a password is something you know because… Bla bla bla.
To be pedantic, a username is not a factor in this sense at all; It is an identifier for an account that you have to prove authorization for by presenting some kind of factor, sometimes multiple.
Biometrics are perfectly fine! We probably don’t even live in the same country, I’m not going to get a hold of your fingerprints.
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what the biometrics actually do. The biometrics only unlock the device and give access to the security key. Once unlocked it’s exactly the same as using a yubikey, and far better than an authenticator app, as they use a crypto key, not a 6 digit number.
This is the goal, sure, but what does this actually mean on device that’s mostly governed by software?
There’s a chip (like a yubikey) in the device that can hold cryptographic keys.
That’s good because the key cannot (easily) be extracted from the device.
That’s good as long as no one has physical access to your device.
With physical access, you hope that the device’s unlock mechanism is reasonably secure. That’s biometrics OR password/pin.
The ‘or’ is the problem. For practical reasons you don’t want exactly one method hard-wired. You have a fingerprint scanner (good enough), the secure element (good enough) and lots of hard- and software in between (tricky).
I’m not against biometrics (to unlock a device) because it’s convinient and much better than not locking the device at all. I’m also not against device trust (which you need if you want to store crypto keys sonewhere without separate hardware), but the convience of a single-device solution (laptop or phone) comes with a risk.
If an attacker can bypass the unlock method or trick you into unlocking or compromise the device, your secrets are at risk. Having the key stored in the secure enclave (and not in a regular file on the hard disk) prevents copying the key material, but it does not prevent using the key when the attacker has some control over the (unlocked) device.
A yubikey is more secure because it’s tiny and you can carry it on your keychain. The same chip inside your laptop is more likely to fall into the hands of an attacker.
Stop using biometrics for authentication!!!
Edit: lots of opinions below. Biometrics are a username, a thing you are. Finger printed can be taken from your laptop with a little powder and masking tape.
Use an authentacator app or security key kids!!
Better put would be stop using biometrics for single factor authentication. A token can be stolen, or a passcode/push notification can be phished/bypassed as easy as biometrics can.
Biometrics are two factor, because you need the fingerprint and the device they unlock.
You can’t use the device without the fingerprint and you can’t take someone’s fingerprint then use them from a different device.
You are not wrong, but you we should understand what class of attacks we are protecting against. Will biometrics stop your maid from using your device? Probably less. Will it stop the FBI? Not so sure.
Now, you may say, an FBI raid is not what you worry about on a daily basis. Agree.
If you are trying to keep the photos on your device safe from snooping, your good. Attacker needs the device and your fingerprint.
When we talk online accounts, I’d count device+fingerprint as one factor. Sure, the maid from the example above can’t login into your gmail without your fingerprint, but most attacks are online. Your device sends a token to gmail, a cookie, a String; that’s like a password. One factor.
Technically, it’s slightly better than a password, because this token can be short-lived (although often it’s not), could be cryptographic signature to be used exactly once (although…), you cannot brute-force guess the token… But IF the token leaks, the attacker has full access (or enough to cause damage).
That’s why I would suggest an independent second factor, such as password. Yes, a password. Not for your daily routine (biometrics+device is much better), but maybe for high-risk operations.
A sufficiently motivated maid will be able to do it. The FBI eats that kind of stuff for breakfast.
Once upon a time, the then German minister of the interior wanted to collect all kinds of biometric data, in passports, in fully connected databases, whatnot. The CCC went ahead and swiped his print off a glass at a reception and published a DIY version to impersonate him in their magazine. Fingerprint authorisation is the security equivalent of a sticky note with your password on your coffee mug.
The good news? You can use ordinary gloves, no need for tinfoil.
No, wrong. Still two factor because your fingerprint plus your device.
These authentication methods aren’t as simple as the two factor Google Authenticator 6 digit number. They are cryptographically secure keys. Even if someone finds out what the token is, they still cannot send a valid request because they cannot generate a digitally signed request using the private key locked in your device’s hardware, unlocked by your biometrics.
Passwords are inherently insecure and relatively easy to break. Digital signatures and secure tokens are almost unbreakable
You’re right. By most definitions of MFA biometrics would pass. A biometric is something you are, and the device is something you have. My comment is more for privacy zealous people, who are concerned that they could be compromised by governments without a “something you know” component.
In Doom I had to rip off a dudes arm to gain access to the security controls on core cooling shutdown. If you don’t want to lose an arm to stop a demon horde, you’re better off just using your girlfriend’s fingerprints
Exactly the point I’m trying to make!!
No… I get it totally. That why I know my girl’s worth my time, she’s willing to potentially give up her arm for me to still play DOOM 8 days a week
A username is not something “you are”, it’s something “you know”. Biometrics are not nearly the same as usernames.
A username is something you are. It’s you! You are 0xD.
A password is something you know. A security key is something you have.
When we interview security analysts you don’t get past the first round if you disagree.
If your interview involves telling me a username is “something you are” rather than “something you know”, I’m running away from that job as fast as I can.
Other people know your username.
How hard is this?
I guarantee you I know thousands of people’s passwords as well, I just don’t know the username associated.
By this same logic, other people could know your fingerprint since it’s “something you are”. No, other people cannot know your fingerprint. It’s a complex mathematical equation to a computer. This is such a terrible take.
Source: CASP+ certified.
No, this username is one of the names I’ve chosen for the accounts I use on lemmy. It does not identify me, it identifies the lemmy accounts that I just so happen to know the password for. I was just about to create an account with your username on another instance but meh, that’s too much work. Just imagine me having done that and think about what you just wrote.
I would be vary of the people agreeing with you on something so basic yet so wrong.
An authentication factor is a unique identifier that shows that you possess something that others don’t. Biometrics are something you are because your fingerprints, your retinas, or your DNA are (mostly) unique to you. A security key is something you have because unique cryptographic material is saved on the hardware device that cannot be replicated somewhere else (which is why many mobile authenticators really aren’t). And a password is something you know because… Bla bla bla.
To be pedantic, a username is not a factor in this sense at all; It is an identifier for an account that you have to prove authorization for by presenting some kind of factor, sometimes multiple.
Biometrics are perfectly fine! We probably don’t even live in the same country, I’m not going to get a hold of your fingerprints.
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what the biometrics actually do. The biometrics only unlock the device and give access to the security key. Once unlocked it’s exactly the same as using a yubikey, and far better than an authenticator app, as they use a crypto key, not a 6 digit number.
Well
Yes
This is the goal, sure, but what does this actually mean on device that’s mostly governed by software?
There’s a chip (like a yubikey) in the device that can hold cryptographic keys.
That’s good because the key cannot (easily) be extracted from the device.
That’s good as long as no one has physical access to your device.
With physical access, you hope that the device’s unlock mechanism is reasonably secure. That’s biometrics OR password/pin.
The ‘or’ is the problem. For practical reasons you don’t want exactly one method hard-wired. You have a fingerprint scanner (good enough), the secure element (good enough) and lots of hard- and software in between (tricky).
I’m not against biometrics (to unlock a device) because it’s convinient and much better than not locking the device at all. I’m also not against device trust (which you need if you want to store crypto keys sonewhere without separate hardware), but the convience of a single-device solution (laptop or phone) comes with a risk.
If an attacker can bypass the unlock method or trick you into unlocking or compromise the device, your secrets are at risk. Having the key stored in the secure enclave (and not in a regular file on the hard disk) prevents copying the key material, but it does not prevent using the key when the attacker has some control over the (unlocked) device.
A yubikey is more secure because it’s tiny and you can carry it on your keychain. The same chip inside your laptop is more likely to fall into the hands of an attacker.
If someone has physical access to you and your device, they are getting in
https://xkcd.com/538/
Using biometrics to protect your online accounts is far more secure than a password
Not on my Lenovo. Fingerprint reader requires a swipe, no print left behind.
I have a lot of questions about what this guy thinks the rest of your device is covered in. Because spoiler, it’s fingerprints.
Mine does not work at all. I’d like to see the guy trying to take fingerprints for a few hours and realizing it won’t do shit lol.