I don’t really see the point of this. It’s just adding complexity for the sake of it. As far as I can tell when you change gear it just changes some software parameters, there are no physical gears. Yet there’s a clutch and the ability to stall?
The point would be to fill a niche for people who like driving manual, but want to transition to electric.
Probably won’t be very popular, but in this big world, there is a niche for everything.
It would be great if they could make a cheap electric car for the masses before filling niches.
People in niches generally pay more. EVs are more expensive and made in smaller quantities (until production ramps up, maybe). So making EVs to appeal to a niche consumer with disposable income can be a smart move to jumpstart the EV business.
That’s (one reason) why Tesla started with luxury sports cars. Car enthusiasts and other lovers of manual gear shift are another interesting segment to try and tap. I wonder what other segments they might go for? Racing? Off-road? Delivery? Taxi? Commercial transport?
It’s tricky though. You don’t see a lot of EV motorcycles, but I think that’s because ebikes are a better power/weight ratio for the form-factor and use case. No one’s getting a Harley to save the environment.
The biggest reasons ev bikes suck are: shitty range, weight, cost.
Bikes are small, batteries are heavy. The Harley live wire, for example, can do less than 100 miles on a charge. Second, but part of that first point, they’re HEAVY. My bike weighs ~360lbs. An energica sport bike is in the high 500lbs range. Thirdly, they’re obscenely expensive for worse performance, handling, weight, range. If someone could produce a 400lb bike with a ~200 mile range I might be interested.
I’m biased, but 99.99% of my riding is in the middle of nowhere in the mountains, there’s no chargers out there and there won’t be for decades.
I’ve not seen an attempt to make a practical electric motorcycle. I’ve only ever seen attempts at superbikes. Give me an electric Ninja 250, something that can comfortably handle a couple hours of highway driving so you could handle a commute from one small town to another small town and I think it would be an actual product.
There are plenty of practical e-motobikes, they’re just made for people in normal countries where you don’t need to ride for more than 10-20km.
Kawasaki recently launched some entry level electric Ninjas, but they’re complete garbage for the price. $8000 for a bike with 10hp, 55mph top speed, and 55 miles of range. That should’ve been $4000 or less.
Just get a $3500 Grom with the same power and speed but also the fun of a mini-bike or a $6000 Ninja 400 with 5x the power and still 55mpg.
Kawasaki also just announced a hybrid Ninja motorcycle that actually looks really intriguing, but we don’t know the price yet.
Wow yeah that is garbage.
This stuff trickles down. AC, auto headlights and windows, touchscreens, information centers, etc were all luxury options for luxury cars…
If I had the time, money, and knowhow my dream car is an electric swapped Datsun 240z. You can keep the manual transmission when you’re swapping an ICE car, I think it’d be pretty neat
I sort of get the point of the second one they mention - sounds like it can “emulate” hundreds of different cars, which could be fun.
Why? This makes no sense. Electric cars don’t need a transmission, they are direct drive.
My car has a CVT and it has shift paddles that are totally unnecessary.
They also add a delay between “gears” because there was too many complaints that the vehicles wasn’t changing gears.
Yeah people are stupid.
Is that what it is? I feel a bump at 80km and always think “CVT my ass”
The paddle shifters have a usecase, it allows you to select portions of the cvt to increase acceleration or reduce road noise. The point of the cvt is to keep the vehicle at the most efficient rpm for fuel, which unfortunately is rather high and noisy.
If you’re in mountains, and especially if you’re towing a trailer, you need those.
I don’t know about trailers, but my EV makes light work of mountains.
Is my comment showing up as a reply to the one about CVTs with paddle shifts because that’s what it’s in reference to. I feel like kbin has been putting my replys in the wrong places.
With all the trque and regen EVs should be fine in hills even with trailers.
Uh, it’s for going downhill.
Isn’t that what the brakes are for?
On a long down hill if you use your brakes too much you risk brake fade and glazing. With electric you need regen or if you have no more room in the battery then you need resistive braking. With an ICE you need to be able to lock into a lower gear. Standard behavior eith a cvt is to gear as high as possible when not under load so you need “manual mode” and the fake gears to pick a ratio with good resistence.
You should be using the regenerative braking…….
I was just thinking that a cvt would be better for an ev…
They don’t need a transmission at all though
It’s not a real transmission. It’s a fake clutch and stick. Both are tied to the computer to make it feel like you’re shifting.
I love a manual transmission on a car but this is really stupid.
As a gearhead I get the sporting and nostalgia aspects. But as a member of the 21 century, I think we can all agree new automatic transmissions are way quicker than any human can be and it’s time to move on. Plus, and EV doesn’t need a transmission, fewer parts to fail is one of the best parts.
I’ll never understand the “quickness” argument. Nobody buys a manual to shift faster than an automatic, they buy it for the experience.
I want one so I can wiggle it in neutral at a stoplight
Sure sure sure but I LOVE A MANUAL. Idk about how efficient an automatic is
If you don’t enjoy the sport of driving, you probably don’t want a manual.
I’m interested in this. I feel like driving is a more connected experience with a manual and always prefer it. But that’s what it is: a preference.
It’s not very often people express that what they think isn’t absolutely the only opinion people should have and just wanted to say I appreciate that you’re willing to admit that.
no, no. pro-skub only.
Except it isn’t connected at all. It’s a shifting mini game programmed into the car’s computer.
Agreed. Not only does it lead to a more connected experience it forces the driver to may more attention to their vehicle and surroundings. I feel I am more prone to say dreaming of becoming distracted behind the wheel of an automatic vehicle.
My experience is opposite. I can focus more on driving without the distraction of gear shifting and keep both hands on wheel. Also in some circumstances having to change gear in some situations restricts your body position when you should have more freedom of movement to properly look around for pedestrians and cyclists - this is the case for me when turning into my housing estate.
The again i live in a rhd country so I change gears with my left hand. I find it a bit easier to do it with right.
Just push the clutch pedal in if it’s an emergency reaction; otherwise change into the gear you need to be in ahead of time (like downshifting into 2nd before a turn).
Sounds like you’re stretching a problem that is really just an error of usage, imo.
With less input required, people can just drift into their own thoughts and whatever emotional things they may have going on whereas the manual keeps your brain more focused in the activity of driving, even if you find it occasionally annoying.
It’s not a “problem” it’s just one of those little things that are safer with an auto.
But it depends a lot on the driver. I see lots of distracted drivers using their phone, I don’t matter what transmission they have if they don’t appreciate the power they are wielding by driving a car.
except it’s a little thing that is still not safer with an auto. Weigh that nothing burger against the much, much bigger problem of distraction.
It’s harder to wield a phone with a manual, as well.
A manual is a constant reminder of the thing you are doing.
Sport driving belongs to closed circuits, not the public roads.
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Karening belongs to closed fb groups, not the public lemmy.
I just want to be able to drive and cycle safely. Racing on public road (or whatever is meant by sport) is not legal, I don’t see why you would defend it and resort to name calling.
“the sport of driving” as a phrase has a different meaning than the “sport driving” meaning you were mudding it with. It was obvious to everyone else, except you and whichever other trigger-happy Karen is addicted to getting on a high horse on the internet over the issue you brought up. That’s why the name-calling is there, Mr. or Mrs. Reading Incomprehension.
A lot of the features listed in the article (written by an AI?) sound corny. This is probably a thing for managers and executive level luxurybros, like the upper level EV market.
The idea of giving the driver more control like this in an EV so it’s more fun is good though. They just feel so fkn heavy and like you’re driving a computer.
Will also give the car enthusiasts who like drifting an option to lock in “gear” so that’s a plus
Yeah exactly and just “spirited driving” in general, a Miata or Civic equivalent of EVs is what’s needed.
My ideal EV would look and drive like a 1989 VW GTI.
But apparently the best car companies can do is a chubby SUV looking thing.
You could convert your own?
If I had the time, money, and skill, definitely.
you gonna make the ford hoes mad
Well, there’s been a few comments from car execs that small cars don’t make sense in the context of EVs. As you can get the footprint down to hatch size but it’s going to be way heavier than expected due to the battery and probably ride a bit higher to fit the battery skateboard
EVs will kill the hot hatch and that makes me very sad.
It’s already kind of dead in NA with some holdouts, the “crossover” mostly took over. Honda discontinuing the Fit here but introducing the HRV on the Fit platform is a perfect indicator of the overall trend.
Honda discontinuing the Fit here
I hadn’t heard this until now, and now I’m sad. The Fit was a great little car. Guess I better get one while they’re cheap.
I agree 100% that my EV felt like driving a computer, which itself was driving the car.
Weird thing is I liked it. It was like driving a really good computer, that drove my car really well.
I can understand why people hate it. It’s deeply strange how certain kinds of normal car feedback is missing.
Speculating a bit, I doubt that retrofitting a manual transmission will help with that strangeness.
But I bet it’ll be a hit with folks like me who don’t mind it, and also loved manual transmission cars.
I feel like I’m a very niche audience though. Most people who I have met who love a manual transmission hated the way my EV drove.
Yeah, unless there is a performance benefit, it’s just a potential for problems. Theoretically, an electric motor could be designed with the rpm and torque output of an ICE where a manual transmission would be beneficial for a car. Electronically simulating a transmission is ridiculous.
Honestly most electric motors dont reach peak power until they get to high RPM… a transmission does still make sense if youre not using a tesla motor made to run at like 18k rpm. Why simulate it?
I didn’t read the article, but in a modern ev I can only see merit in maybe 2 or three speeds plus reverse if it’s an actual transmission and not just a parameter change.
With the stick shift Honda civic converted to electric that I tried out when deciding if I wanted to convert my own, it had the original transmission and you really only used gear 2 and 4. You came to a full stop geared in, and changed directly to 2 while at 0 rpm. Definitely a strange experience to anyone used to stick shift.
Did they develop their own system, or did they license Koenigsegg’s?
This definitely has a place in sports cars. More control is a plus. If it’s any good, it will be a hit.
What are you talking about? It has an electric motor. It has a near flat toque curve. This literally gives you less control. There is a reason Formula E cars only have two gears and spend the majority of the race in second.
I love manuals. I daily a car with a manual transmission. I’d drive any other EV before I drove a fake stick shift EV.
on my egolf I have the stick. Its kind of cool to nudge into different regen modes coming off a motorway but its entirely useless as a device as its just telling the computer to switch mode.
Maybe an excuse to set two different prices, but charge more overall.
100%. Its like with hybrids, just add £10k onto a petrol engine price. Same cars
Well a hybrid car is significantly more complicated than a petrol car (multiple power sources that have to be integrated through the drive train), however I’m sure they stretch the pricing well beyond reasonable proportions.
It really depend though, Toyota’s HSD system replace the whole gearbox with a hybrid system that only has 2 planetary gear. It is not much bigger than a 7+ speed gearbox.
I have a friend who studied the Toyota Prius gearbox at university to try and figure out improvements, I can say for a fact that their drivetrain is trick as fuck. So in some sense it’s reasonable for them to charge a higher price and profit from their R&D work.
Like I say though, I’m sure they stretch the pricing well beyond what is reasonable.
i mean in practical user terms. what theyve done is add a battery which adds a handful of miles and adds an enormous cost for no practical benefit. The only real advantage to a hybrid is the use of battery motor off the lights 0-30mph, which is the most carbon intense part of any driving and worse as you increase weight.
It’s definitely something of a gimmick, like 3D TV, and especially in its early iterations. However you did just list a genuine benefit of hybrid technology. Also, I know someone with a Mercedes hybrid and that will go up to like 50 mph on battery only, and also delivers ridiculous acceleration like that I’ve only previously felt on motorbikes, all the while keeping fuel economy above 90 mpg and never bothering to plug it in. The only real downside is how much space the batteries take up in the boot.
the real downside is you cant drive for more than about 20 minutes!
Yeah, range in general is terrible with anything electric - and the UK isn’t even that big. New battery tech can’t come quickly enough.
My hybrid escape gets double the gas mileage of my ice Soul. It’s not just slap 10k more on the same car… I can make lots of small trips almost entirely electric and just need the engine for highway and quicker acceleration.
With my hybrid my trip to the grocery store is 80mpg for the 3/4 miles I’m going, in my ice it’s 24
I guess so. My perspective is you may as well get a full EV, and stop using petrol entirely. Ive never seen hybrids as anything more than a scam in environmental measures. It does depend on circumstances but I dont see any reason to own an ICE now. Even EV earth movers with diesel generators are better, as you have zero tailpipe emissions on the carbon intensive acceleration parts of a drive.
Im sure you might get better acceleration in an ICE but ive driven quite a few and EV always wins on that front.
Plug-in hybrids make a lot of sense, because most journeys can be taken fully electric, but when you want to go a weekender and your destination lacks chargers, you can use petrol. All in one car. That’s amazing and super practical!
you are easily impressed my friend. Im rather cynical and jaded
No, I’m a realist.
Full EV doesn’t make sense for me, I have to drive 300 miles around 8-12 times a year and EVs can’t really do that right now without stopping to charge and there’s no chargers in BFE America
This seems cool and I want to try it out. It would be cool if you had the option to turn it on or off.
Why this is a feature like this important? There are people who feel that EV’s lack the soul and/or personality of ICE cars. There was a recent YouTube video I watched where one of the hosts described a tesla as being designed by “someone who thinks driving is a chore.” This feature would provide him and the people like him with EV’s that have personality.
I can totally see this feature enabling simulation of different power curves like a V8, V6, I4, with and without turbo’s and superchargers. I can also see the car tuner community designing their own torque curves which would be amazing. We can already adjust ICE car torque curves over the internet, why not EV’s?
Why are you getting downvoted? This would make an EV more fun to drive even if it isn’t the “real thing” and makes it slower within the mode.
The amount of people downvoting similar opinions in this thread is off the charts. These people need to get a grip.
We do think that EVs lack soul. However it isn’t because they lack a manual gearbox. It’s because they are treated like electronics devices. You are discouraged or outright blocked from repairing, tinkering, and modifying most EVs. They are all focused on peak efficiency or luxury, not towards a fun and engaging driving experience.
To be clear, I didn’t expect the first wave of EVs to be driver focused canyon carvers, but to get me into one they’ll need more than fake engine noises and simulated gearboxes.
Adding complexity… Motherfuckers are adding electric tailgate and auto wipers and you are worried about the manual transmission.
I know in the country I live in if you do your driving test with automatic then your license is only valid for an automatic. This law should probably be changed imo, but I can see it causing people to be hesitant to go in on an ev if it means they will likely only be able to drive it. For people who already have a license, it obviously isn’t an issue if they are just getting a new car, but they are also looking at young first time buyers and new drivers.
The way I have usually seen in the past is that, if you get an automatic license you can only drive automatic. If you get a manual transmission license you can do both. Is this not how your country works? I don’t know how this is relevant otherwise.
It is. That’s what I was saying. Perhaps they are doing this for places that are hesitant to purchase a car that isn’t manual, because they (or their kid when getting a license) would have a limited license with an automatic.
When we first moved here we got an automatic with low miles for super cheap, because no one wanted an automatic.
America doesn’t work that way. But there’s so few manual cars now it doesn’t matter.
