A law under consideration by the German parliament would mean that people who have committed anti-Semitic acts can never be granted citizenship, German Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said on Wednesday.
How do they define “antisemitic acts”? There have been widespread protests in support of Palestinian civilians, which goes against a ban in place since the attack by Hamas. Are they going to use vague definitions to revoke citizenship for people protesting against the genocide of Palestinians?
Nazi icons/clothing/symbols are outright banned. It’s not unspecific.
The statement is 100% in response to pro-Palestinian protests. They do not need to remind everyone not to be an outright Nazi.
With AfD over 20% we can kind of do need to remind them
Yes, I’m aware. In theory, giving parents more control over their kid’s education is good too. I’m against the Stop WOKE act though.
Uh, is my lemmy attaching the wrong replies to posts or something? Cause for me the comment this reply is on just doesn’t make sense as what is being replied to.
Lemmy does have some bugs. You do see the odd comment in a thread that was meant to be posted on another post.
If it doesn’t make sense, let me explain it. Germany has previously banned nazi iconography. This has been true for my entire life. I’m drawing parallels between this new law in the article from Germany that has very little explanation, and an unconstitutionally vague bill in Florida being used to ban real history about the US.
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Yes
No, it’s impossible to revoke German citizenship. Defined in article 16 GG. The only exception is treason benefitting a state the offender also holds citizenship in.
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They will not revoke anything. They will just not grant citizenship for immigrants who have committed crimes that go against the (rough translation) “free and democratic foundations of the nation”. Basically: if you are against German democratic and humanitarian values to a degree that is criminal In Germany (eg Hate crimes, attempts to overthrow an election, etc), you can’t become a German citizen. You can live in Germany, you can be allowed to work here in Germany, but you ain’t one of us ans you can’t apply for most benefits.
Besides, the law actually makes it easier for immigrants to get German citizenship.
Did you make that? Good job.
Well played, Boomer
…but if you’re an outright Nazi, German intelligence might have a job for you.
Is there maybe a way to use this to revoke citizenship of all these CXU/AfD Fascists?
Nope. These types of laws are never aimed at blonde and blue-eyed people… not in the west, anyway.
If you’re not white but you want the best for your country and love your job, you’re fired and accused of being a communist lol. Literally idiocracy.
There is not (Art. 16 GG). IIRC the only exception is the fringe case of someone having dual citizenship and enlisting to fight in a conflict involving the other country or some shit.
You can lose citizenship by taking up another (non-EU) one without having jumped through quite some hoops before, have another citizenship and fight in their army without previously asking for permission (there’s a blanket exceptions for EU, NATO, EFTA and a couple of others), by giving it up, or being adopted by foreign parents. In all cases you won’t lose it if it’d make you stateless.
On the flip side if you lost your German citizenship previously due to the Nazis you can get it back no questions asked, some but quite low bars exist for cases like a woman marrying a foreigner (until 1953 that meant she lost citizenship). You can also get citizenship pretty much instantly if you live in a territory that once was Germany, or in the ex soviet block, and still are considered to be ethnically German.
For the rest it’s generally get a work permit, get permanent residence, stay here for eight years, that can be reduced to seven by completing an integration course, six if you’re aceing integration, pass a written test, got sentenced to more than a misdemeanour, know enough German, swear allegience to the free and democratic basic order, and are willing to lose your old citizenship (exception: EU or Swiss citizens, also, hardship. E.g. Iran simply doesn’t release people from their citizenship, the US demands exorbitant sums – but Americans still might want to get rid of theirs to get rid of the IRS).
Iran has this clause that they can technically allow someone to renounce their citizenship: the Council of Ministers has to accept your request and they simply never will, so you have to stay.
I have a friend in Iran that is a born Iranian who wanted to renounce his citizenship for years. First he was told it’s impossible before having completed the mandatory military service (a lie, it is not a requirement by their own laws). He finally caved in and did the 2 years bullshit service. Then, they told him he needed to be 26. Ok, fine, he waited until then. Then they told him his questionnaire form was outdated and he needs to apply again with the new one. How to get the new one? Only way seems to be over the official page that links to a dead link, literally 404.
Already the case. To gain citizenship you generally have to have a clear criminal record, with the exception of youth offences, fines up to 90 days, and prison up to 3 month if it was on probation, unless the motive was antisemitic, racist, xenophobic, or otherwise contemptuous of humanity.
If they want to extend it to “has done something like that that wasn’t illegal” then they’re going to have a hard time before court as it would amount to immigration officials infringing on prerogatives of the judicature.
Tell that to Israeli government and the NSO group destroying family values and relationships, selling spyware to the same dictatorships they claim to stand against then attempting to avoid accountability.
How are they going to detect that, a “yes/no” question?
They will use this law to deny citizenship to people from Palestine
Likely to anyone who even feigns sympathy for them too, if German reaction to Palestinian Liberation protests are anything to go by.
There’s a quite simple line in Germany: Don’t be violent and don’t shout things like “gas the Jews” and you can protest. And thousands did in quite a number of cities on quite a number of days. Get out of your filter bubble.
Exactly.
True.
If they had past convictions
And Ukraine I suppose
Until the brain-scan is perfected.
geeze get over your preconceptions about europeans, they have words for yes and no…
yikes
Yeah, the law this vague is purposely designed to be abused by the government. German police are already trying Nazi tactics at this point. The pro Palestinian rally at Frankfurt, they literally isolated young people with Palestinian flags, took pictures of people and their ID cards, and suddenly these people now have started getting problems in their schools,universities and jobs, even when they never shared anything political themselves. Germany and Fascism is a story for the ages.
That sounds really extreme. Do you have a reliable source for that?
It’s all over Twitter (or X), YouTube and TikTok. Plus, I was there in person and saw plenty but can’t show due to self preservation.
You have to realize that this is not a terribly convincing statement, right?
I do, but I gotta do “Trust me Bro” cuz I like anonymity here on Lemmy.
How would linking one of the many posts you saw “all over twitter” break your anonymity?
Lol
So you did “MAH WESEARCH???” Go try that shit at reddit. This shit doesn’t work here.
So you have none, gotcha.
The law is pretty clear. Are you a Nazi? Don’t be or else you don’t get a citizenship. They already have a law against being a Nazi so this new one isn’t some new law they could abuse now that they couldn’t before. Stop fear mongering.
Imagine just being an innocent person being caught up in this crap, then having literally everyone try to scapegoat you lol
I appreciate what you’re saying and I’m a little angry that people are calling you out for not providing sources. So I went and found some articles that can get us started finding out more about how the German government is treating pro-Palestinian protestors.
DW: Police Break up Gaza Protests
65 Officers Hurt, 174 Detained in Berlin Protest
People attending an outlawed protest get rounded up and identified, news at 11.
No, seriously. There have been plenty of pro-Palestine protests in Germany getting permits, there also have been plenty of pro-Palestine protests in Germany which got outlawed. The reason? Different organisers. Different capacities of those organisers to make sure that the protesters won’t commit crimes. Courts overruled some of those police assessments, but not all.
Like, people were up in arms even before all this went down that the Nakba protests in Berlin got outlawed. They completely ignored that in previous years, the same organisers held protests and those turned violent, broke out into “gas the Jews” chants, and whatnot.
As the Basic Law says: Every German has the right to peacefully assemble without weapon. The “German” part is usually ignored, also foreigners enjoy that right in practice. The “peacefully and without weapons” part OTOH is not negotiable.
Part of this is a cultural problem: The organisers don’t seem to understand how protesting works in Germany, what the do’s and don’ts are. And when they cross those lines, things get out of hand, public order is infringed upon, they try to play the victim card.
Do you know how much German police or Germans in general care if you call us Nazis? How much that stings? I’ll tell you: Zero. Because we know you’re full of shit.
You wrote a whole lot of words to just say that the government can do whatever. The protest on the 20th of October was specifically granted permission from the courts on the 19th, a day earlier. Half an hour before the protest, Polizei announced that it is now verboten (when? where?) and started arresting people and IDing them, the people who are unaware of changes and coming to attend a permissible demonstration. How isn’t that sketchy? That seems like an operation to identify pro-Palestinian people and intimidate/harass them, and actually follow through by contacting their universities and work.
I have been in Germany for around 2 decades as a dark skinned person, don’t tell me the scope of Nazi infiltration in the German military and police. I face them everyday. It’s common news among everyone, only willfully ignorant ones try to overlook it, and later will cry after their fascism gets discovered, just like from the Holocaust documentary when, German citizens were first taken to see concentration camps, and started crying “we didn’t know”. Ja right, gimme a break.
On the 20th? Only thing I can find in the press talks of a protest in Frankfurt around that date is on the 21st, which was peaceful and legal. A couple of counts of display of forbidden symbols (presumably Hamas flags), one count of incitement to hatred, but in a context of 1500 participants that’s nothing.
Me thinks you’re making up shit on the spot.
Me thinks less of what you think, and the 21st was also not peaceful but due to what happened on previous days, lawyers had a court order of peaceful assembly again, and didn’t back down, and let the demonstration happen. The irony of other people gaslighting me and telling me what happened when I witnessed it myself. Were you there at Frankfurtdemonstration? You are free to look, social Media is full of these things.
and the 21st was also not peaceful but due to what happened on previous days,
The police literally called it peaceful. What do you mean by “what happened on the previous days”? The city wanted to ban it, the court allowed it, and the protest went ahead as planned. That’s business as usual in Germany.
If there were protests before that they likely were (correct me if I’m wrong) unannounced and if you don’t announce a non-spontaneous protest the police can dissolve it without a court order. That’s why people announce protests: To have legal protection.
You are free to look, social Media is full of these things.
Do any of those people understand the legal and cultural situation? Also, which fucking posts. You have been asked before to provide links, and came up empty. I gave you a report from the hessenschau, do you see any factual errors in there? Ones that you could back up?
He doesn’t have any. He is just mad you called out his lies.
Prove it. Show us something when its so easy to find. Show us a reliable unbiased Source.
That was cathartic to read.
Why not make that hate crimes in general?
Minister Faeser also makes it clear: “Racism, anti-Semitism or any other form of misanthropy stand in the way of naturalization - there is zero tolerance.” A clear commitment to the values of a free society should therefore be a prerequisite for naturalization. Anyone who does not share values such as the dignity and equality of all people and the equal rights of men and women, or who even acts against them, may not become a German.
But that’s already in the law. Unless the idea is to throw the Rechtsstaat out of the window and remove the requirement that people have the right to a fair trial.
Because that’s already in the law:
Sentence 1 does not apply if the foreigner was convicted of an antisemitic, racist or xenophobic offence, or other criminal offence evidencing contempt for humanity as referred to in section 46 (2) sentence 2 of the Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch) and sentenced to a prison term, fine or youth custody and the court judgment found that the offence was based on such a motive.
This is 100% performative bullshit.
Define anti semite
Not kissing Israel’s ass presumably
Israel is objectively in the right in the war but I’m afraid that defining anti semite could mean anyone they don’t like
Why do you say that they’re in the right? Serious question and not being confrontational. I really want to know what people think about this whole thing.
Europe was a pile of smoking rubble after World War 2 and they didn’t want to deal with all the Jewish refugees displaced by the war. So they used a Bronze Age fairy tale as an excuse to drop an entire country in the middle of somebody else’s country in the Middle East and steal a bunch of land from the people who had been living there for centuries, if not millennia.
Therefore, Israel has a right to exist. QED.
they didn’t want to deal with all the Jewish refugees displaced by the war
Also, many Jewish refugees did not want to return to countries that had handed them over to the Nazis.
A bronze era fairy tale? It historical fact that Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years and built all the cities from there.
Jews started immigrating to Palestine in the 1800s and it’s that point that many of the current arabs immigrated as well as the Jews developed the land. The arabs did not care if a Muslim immigrated from Iraq but were against a Jew from Iraq because they are fascist.
At the behest of arabs the British who controlled Palestine restricted Jewish immigration, and yes WW2 refugees lived in camps in Cyprus for 5 years because no one would take them. That is why there had to be a specifically Jewish state. In 1948 the UN partition plan taking a small piece of Palestine for a Jewish state where arabs could live freely and equally and not be displaced was accepted by the Jews and the arabs went to war over it.
Jews are the natives of the land, it is so asinine that Muslims who have entirely Muslim countries from Morocco to Pakistan would be in hysterics over this thing. You see the way they destroy historical artifacts in Afghanistan, Iran, these are the most belligerent, fascist and anti semitic people.
What other example in the world is there an example of people who are native to the land being barred from living there?
I’d say the basic position, without trying to start a big argument, is that regardless of historical grievances, Israel exists and is not going anywhere. That doesn’t mean that its oppression of Palestinians is justified or that settlements in the West Bank aren’t counterproductive to peace, or that they haven’t committed terrible atrocities.
Be that as it may, none of that can ever excuse what happened three weeks ago. No amount of legitimate grievances can ever justify intentionally slaughtering hundreds of innocent civilians, and given that those attacks were explicitly organized by Hamas, who has the violent destruction of Israel and murder of its citizens as an explicit goal, Israel is justified in eliminating Hamas from ever being a threat again.
That does not mean that they have the right to just flatten Gaza and murder all its residents, which, it needs to be said, it easily could do and is not doing. However, while they certainly could be doing much more to protect the lives of Gazan citizens and should be criticized for not doing so, their fundamental aim of eliminating Hamas and forcibly de-militarizing Gaza is legitimately justified.
Ultimately, a two-state solution is the only realistic path towards some kind of peaceful co-existence, and that is impossible when you have a party like Hamas that is expressly opposed to the existence of Israel and takes action to indiscriminately murder its citizens. Again, that doesn’t mean that Israel hasn’t also done objectionable things as well, but what it hasn’t ever done is drive the IDF into Palestinian villages and start shooting every man, women, and child they see.
Essentially, I support actions that make peace more possible and oppose those that don’t. There is no world in which Hamas is part of a productive path to peace. Similarly, I’m also extremely opposed to West Bank settlements and have next to no sympathy for the people that voluntarily move there. They only really began in earnest once Likud gained power, and Likud is also a party that has no real interest in moving towards peace (though thankfully, they’re absolutely toast once the fighting is over). However, the lands that were attacked three weeks ago have never been claimed by any Palestinian government and have been recognized as Israel’s since 1949.
That’s roughly the general liberal pro-Israel approach I see. Likud is bad and needs to go. Israel does a lot of bad things and needs new government (a sentiment shared by a good half of Israelis). Hamas are literal terrorists and absolutely have to go. If you have any genuine questions to ask that isn’t just accusing me of being a genocidal maniac, I’m all ears.
Thank you for your well thought-out response. This whole thing is a little overwhelming for me and I’m still trying to inform myself to figure it out. I see horrible from both sides in the news and also good arguments for both sides in the comments. I’m hoping some insight goes a long way!
Btw, before I get flack for being a centrist, which I’m not, I feel this conflict needs an unusual amount of nuance. I’m also thinking that maybe I don’t need to take a side when neither party wants peace. It’s tough.
This doesn’t get described as the single most intractable geopolitical conflict in the world for nothing!
You’re absolutely correct that it’s an extremely complicated topic with legitimate grievances on all side. If you want to learn more, I’d just suggest that you make sure to get exposed to narratives on both sides and be retain a healthy amount of skepticism towards any news that comes out and towards anyone that attempts to “simplify” the conflict by stating that their side is unequivocally right. There are some people - on both sides, I might mention - that will say that any attempt to draw attention to the nuance and complexity is simply a conspiratorial effort to erase their obviously correct narrative, and this is obviously not done in good faith. Whenever someone is talking about the conflict (myself included!), always ask yourself what’s actually motivating them to say what they’re saying and try to figure out if they’re legitimately attempting to observe events as they happen and describe them or if they’re simply trying to push an agenda that they’ve already decided is correct.
Also, if I’m correct that you don’t live in the region and it doesn’t meaningfully affect you, just remember that you don’t actually have to have an opinion on every geopolitical conflict in the world! There’s much much more to life than politics, and you’ll actually lose your mind if you try to learn every detail of every conflict in the world. There’s nothing wrong with simply hoping that all sides manage to find a peaceful solution and moving on to touching grass or whatever it is normal people do.
Your comment’s great!
But every single time a two-state solution has been pushed forth, Palestine and the Arab League have refused and declared war (which they lost, twice).
This response by BraveSirZaphod really resonates with me, Israeli secular Jew of Russian descent.
Because if you know the history you know that it is the pals who are belligerent and have instigated every conflict guided by islamic fascism, that their can be no non Muslim nation in the middle east (and later on for the world)
Obviously Jews have a reason for living in the land, Jews are the natives of the land , you can see in Jerusalem there is a mosque built on top of the Jewish temple, I don’t think it’s hard to figure out who the colonizer is.
Most of history is reaction to another thing… But if you look up the 1948nparririon plan you will see that Israel was willing to accept a tiny Jewish state on land which was largely uninhabited and the inhabited part Jewish. The arabs went to war against it under the premise there can be no Jewish state. Preceding the state of Israel there were laws against Jewish immigration and discriminatory laws against Jews in every Muslim country.
Palestine was not a nation in any sense, there were many groups of people and one side of the land had nothing to do with another. Jordan was part of Palestine as was given the the ‘heshimite’ family which is not from there and no one seems to mind.
So it is clear the opposition to a Jewish state on any form is based in bigoted Islamic fascism, I don’t know how this couldn’t be clear to someone when you see what the Muslims have done to Christians in Lebanon and syria, Hindus in India, and to each other in the Syrian cival war, iran-iraq war etc…
You can see over the years Israel has made many concessions for peace, offered Palestinian states many times, has RESTRAINED military responses. What steps have the pals ever taken towards peace? They receive millions in aid and use it to build rockets. How asinine can you be to claim to care about the ‘history of the land’ and seek to exclude Judaism? Jews are the natives of the land, arabs and islam are from arabia. It would be like being in genocidal hysterics over indian reservations.
The people supporting pals are Islamic fascists and slogan yelling clueless teenagers
I like saying something controversial then not responding
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Oh look… somebody running interference for a genocidal white supremacist colonialist state.
Ho hum.
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gottverdammt*
Showing off Nazi symbols. Which already is illegal
You dislike jews because they are jews.
A seven year old could figure that out, or shit, read wikipedia idk…
They are asking which way the minister wants to define the term.
The fucking same I would presume, most likely looking it up in a dictionary
Given how often the term is being misused lately, it’s a fair question. The Israeli embassy started a campaing against the mayor of Barcelona trying to frame her as an antisemite because she took symbolic measures to denounce Israel’s crimes against Palestinians back in February. Plenty of European politicians just don’t want to speak with honesty because they don’t want the bad PR of being the target of this kind of attacks.
How would you derive that someone “dislikes jews because they are jews”? Do you listen to them talk and make a decision following your gut? Do you make an MRI image of their brain and measure their brain waves to read their mind?
You would have to work with their past actions. And then it becomes non trivial to define “anti-semite”.
So it is not really about “what does the word mean” but “how do you decide who fits the definition and who doesn’t”. People are concerned about this because it is very hard to make a law that 100% only fits to the people you want to target (leaving asside wether the principle is correct or not).What in the fuck are you even talking about? Do you have the same issue identifying a racist? Do you need to MRI scan a KKK members brain to be sure if they are racist, do a deep dive into the background? Goddamn some of you on lemmy are fucking stupid…
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Germany actively boots out and leashes nazis, while Israel elects them to office, parties with them, names districts after them, and permits them visits to the Kotel.
💀💀💀💀💀
Wild times.
We need sources please
Israel literally named a settlement in the Golan Heights after fffking Trump.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights
After Bibi had wine and cheese with him. Fukem both.
Thanks. I had no idea. That’s terrifying.
I know. I kept trying to give IL the benefit of the doubt until I saw THAT ffking shhht in the news. Our new Speaker of the House is a neonazi who wants to “defend” Israel while legislatively trying to murder everyone else who is not a ffking cis-white-Christian-male.
I CANNOT take that place seriously now.
This ain’t it, chief.
i can excuse apartheid and genocide but i draw the line at naming something after a politician
You don’t understand my point that “naming things after THIS particular bottom tier politician” is something that makes you not credible anymore?
Don’t ffk this up on yourself.
Trump aint a nazi tho
He stood in the Ford factory and talked about “great bloodlines”, called African nations like Botswana shitholes and got innocent black men legally harassed for their their entire lives.
That’s enough for me, bro.
well actual neo-nazis are against trump because he was pro-israel, but whatev
No. No they’re not.
Margie Greene is a LITERAL neonazi that went to a KKK brunch, laughed it off, and is his biggest supporter.
Don’t even try conflating Judaism with Israeli government support after some of even the most staunch Hareidi sects, and also Holocaust victims, protest Israeli politics.
And Trump is NOT “pro-Israel”, he’s “pro-ME.”
Dunno who margie is.
They can keep their own Nazis, just not have new extra foreigners.
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Peak performance.
Deal with it. If you want to make out with Hamas ,do it without german citizenship.
It was about time. All those diehard Erdoğan fans for example are pretty antisemitic in my experience.
So its bad when Nazi’s kill people indiscriminately, but when Jews do it to Palestinians that’s totally fine?
