And that’s not even fully confirmed yet. Some doubts are still in the air such as the direction of shrapnel being from the North-East and the “Hamas Audio” was proven doctored.
To my understanding, said audio “doctoring” is consistent with splicing multiple sources together. Which… makes sense if multiple people were tapped. Same with enhancing audio so it is… audible.
But yeah. We are well into “crisis actor” and “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams” territory. And we will never leave it short of definitive proof that Netanyahu drove the bomb over himself.
Which is why there is a push to remind people: Hamas is a horrifically evil terrorist group with a LONG history of atrocities.
Which, just because people are stupid, does not mean that Mossad and the IDF aren’t ALSO an evil terrorist group for all intents and purposes.
From a quick google, the top result regarding the dialogue discrepancy is Al Jazeera. And, much like with the BBC and other state funded news networks: Take everything they say about their own government’s interests with a massive grain of salt. I have yet to find any cited sources on the dialect claim, but it is also worth understanding that we already know Iran is (allegedly) involved and terrorist groups in neighboring countries have been taking advantage of the chaos. So for the splinter group that allegedly did this to have people who don’t speak with a perfect Gaza dialect is not a smoking gun.
Do you have a solid resource regarding the dialect claims? Would be curious in reading more.
For what its worth, Bellingcat is generally a pretty good “popular science” source for topics like this. And while they have yet to formally come down on one side or another, their initial findings are consistent with it not being Israeli JDAMs and did not dispute claims that the attack “came from within Gaza” https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/
But also: “there’s evidence against both sides and both sides have lied. We don’t know wtf happened” is exactly what I am talking about. We have “people” speculating about dialects. As opposed to multiple governments (not just the US slobbering all over that circumcised winky) increasingly acknowledging that it appears to not be the IDF and news outlets retracting their claims.
They have yet to formally come down on one side or another, their initial findings are consistent with it not being Israeli JDAMs and did not dispute claims that the attack “came from within Gaza”
Yeah it probably wasn’t a JDAM, those seem waaay too powerful. Here’s a source associated with the University of London. They also haven’t made a definite conclusion but they said it came from Israel and also the crater lined up with artillery. You can read about their findings here. https://twitter.com/ForensicArchi/status/1715422493274427414
Do you have a solid resource regarding the dialect claims? Would be curious in reading more.
Other than Al-Jazeera no, and I agree that it isn’t the best source. I know an international student from my uni that agrees but again that isn’t a solid source, just a dude.
As opposed to multiple governments (not just the US slobbering all over that circumcised winky) increasingly acknowledging that it appears to not be the IDF and news outlets retracting their claims.
I mean idk, there hasn’t been proof provided (a clip from a phone call that is disputed is pretty much it), so I don’t think its reasonable for anybody to make a definitive conclusion yet. I do think it is good that news places are retracting their claims, because again there isn’t enough info.
Ignoring all of the IDF/USA and Hamas/PIJ claims, all I’ve seen is: Crater and doppler analysis shows it came from Israel (direction wise), and the crater shows the same. The crater lines up with artillery or a rocket, but not a JDAM. Hamas rockets have misfired before, Israel warned the hospital to evacuate and also hit the same hospital with a rocket a few days earlier. Someone (hamas or pij) was launching rockets near the hospital around that time, but we can’t see any rockets turning around in the air and going northeast.
My understanding is that the “Israel warned them to leave” is misleading. Isreal has been “warning” EVERYONE to leave and repeatedly threatening hospitals because… it would be really bad PR if they blew up (another) hospital.
As for not providing evidence for the entire world to dissect and analyze: Probably because any government with the capability has MUCH better surveillance on Gaza right now than what the OSINT and news media have access to. And you generally don’t provide that to twitter where people are posting footage from years ago and calling it new.
Same with additional recordings and so forth.
We’ll never truly know. But considering that SOME governments actually have been willing to speak out against the war crimes (so, again, not the US) and they aren’t hopping up and calling out the bullshit AND the majority of news outlets have migrated away from the “Israel did this” narrative and are now acknowledging they jumped the gun? Signs point to this not being IDF
As for the London University claims: I haven’t read their reports in full, largely because I wouldn’t understand it. But going by the linked image (which I have seen elsewhere): They basically are building this claim on the claimed direction being on the outer edge of the projection from their models? Its like saying “We project it was probably between 30 and 32 C, but it might also have been 28 to 34 C. Their measurement was 33 C so they are wrong”
I think they were also one of the first outlets to claim the audio was doctored? Which… lines up. University students barely know what they are doing and university professors are generally eager to be “the big dog” for funding and fame purposes. So “This is slightly weird” becomes “We have found discrepancies”
Which gets to the point that not all OSINT is made equally.
Israel isn’t mass murdering Palestinian children. They’re bombing Hamas terrorists, who are using children as human shields. That is 100% on the terrorists.
You’re fooling yourself if you think the Israeli military actually knows where Hamas is and is target bombing. If they knew where Hamas bomb factories and the like were, then they would have bombed them before the attack. Israel is just bombing random targets. Like apparently several thousand strikes, some serious WW2 level bombardment. Seems much more likely such factories would be underground.
You’re falling into the trap of thinking Israel has some kind of legendary intelligence force when the attack showed they were only fooling themselves.
The intense bombing is just to drive away the population and empty out the area so the Israeli military can go in with ground forces without taking a lot of casualties. They won’t go in on the ground unless a majority of people leave the area. Urban fighting with high rise buildings is a guarantee for mass casualties on the attacking force. The Israeli military is mostly reservists, so a lot of people with minimal combat experience and mostly did checkpoint duties in their active time in the IDF.
Gaza is among the most densely packed population on earth. Dropping bombs where there are schools, supermarkets, apartment buildings and hospitals is a deliberate attempt by Israel to terror bomb and mass murder. This is bloodthirsty revenge by a racist ethnostate.
I mean they should be negotiating for the release of hostages. There’s no reason to believe that these bombings will have any effect on hostage release, especially since Israel is considering a ground incursion into Gaza to wipe out Hamas.
Unfortunately, some observers are casting doubts on the Hamas atrocities.
That being said, I agree entirely that this is just a deflection attempt from Israel.
Just like the hospital strike initially was, before it turned out they did that themselves. The deflection wars started have.
Correction: They didn’t do it themselves. It was a misfire by Islamic Jihad.
And that’s not even fully confirmed yet. Some doubts are still in the air such as the direction of shrapnel being from the North-East and the “Hamas Audio” was proven doctored.
To my understanding, said audio “doctoring” is consistent with splicing multiple sources together. Which… makes sense if multiple people were tapped. Same with enhancing audio so it is… audible.
But yeah. We are well into “crisis actor” and “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams” territory. And we will never leave it short of definitive proof that Netanyahu drove the bomb over himself.
Which is why there is a push to remind people: Hamas is a horrifically evil terrorist group with a LONG history of atrocities.
Which, just because people are stupid, does not mean that Mossad and the IDF aren’t ALSO an evil terrorist group for all intents and purposes.
People said the dialect is off in the audio, and it sounds staged.
I don’t think we’re in conspiracy theory territory, there’s evidence against both sides and both sides have lied. We don’t know wtf happened.
From a quick google, the top result regarding the dialogue discrepancy is Al Jazeera. And, much like with the BBC and other state funded news networks: Take everything they say about their own government’s interests with a massive grain of salt. I have yet to find any cited sources on the dialect claim, but it is also worth understanding that we already know Iran is (allegedly) involved and terrorist groups in neighboring countries have been taking advantage of the chaos. So for the splinter group that allegedly did this to have people who don’t speak with a perfect Gaza dialect is not a smoking gun.
Do you have a solid resource regarding the dialect claims? Would be curious in reading more.
For what its worth, Bellingcat is generally a pretty good “popular science” source for topics like this. And while they have yet to formally come down on one side or another, their initial findings are consistent with it not being Israeli JDAMs and did not dispute claims that the attack “came from within Gaza” https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/
But also: “there’s evidence against both sides and both sides have lied. We don’t know wtf happened” is exactly what I am talking about. We have “people” speculating about dialects. As opposed to multiple governments (not just the US slobbering all over that circumcised winky) increasingly acknowledging that it appears to not be the IDF and news outlets retracting their claims.
Yeah it probably wasn’t a JDAM, those seem waaay too powerful. Here’s a source associated with the University of London. They also haven’t made a definite conclusion but they said it came from Israel and also the crater lined up with artillery. You can read about their findings here. https://twitter.com/ForensicArchi/status/1715422493274427414
Other than Al-Jazeera no, and I agree that it isn’t the best source. I know an international student from my uni that agrees but again that isn’t a solid source, just a dude.
I mean idk, there hasn’t been proof provided (a clip from a phone call that is disputed is pretty much it), so I don’t think its reasonable for anybody to make a definitive conclusion yet. I do think it is good that news places are retracting their claims, because again there isn’t enough info.
Ignoring all of the IDF/USA and Hamas/PIJ claims, all I’ve seen is: Crater and doppler analysis shows it came from Israel (direction wise), and the crater shows the same. The crater lines up with artillery or a rocket, but not a JDAM. Hamas rockets have misfired before, Israel warned the hospital to evacuate and also hit the same hospital with a rocket a few days earlier. Someone (hamas or pij) was launching rockets near the hospital around that time, but we can’t see any rockets turning around in the air and going northeast.
My understanding is that the “Israel warned them to leave” is misleading. Isreal has been “warning” EVERYONE to leave and repeatedly threatening hospitals because… it would be really bad PR if they blew up (another) hospital.
As for not providing evidence for the entire world to dissect and analyze: Probably because any government with the capability has MUCH better surveillance on Gaza right now than what the OSINT and news media have access to. And you generally don’t provide that to twitter where people are posting footage from years ago and calling it new.
Same with additional recordings and so forth.
We’ll never truly know. But considering that SOME governments actually have been willing to speak out against the war crimes (so, again, not the US) and they aren’t hopping up and calling out the bullshit AND the majority of news outlets have migrated away from the “Israel did this” narrative and are now acknowledging they jumped the gun? Signs point to this not being IDF
As for the London University claims: I haven’t read their reports in full, largely because I wouldn’t understand it. But going by the linked image (which I have seen elsewhere): They basically are building this claim on the claimed direction being on the outer edge of the projection from their models? Its like saying “We project it was probably between 30 and 32 C, but it might also have been 28 to 34 C. Their measurement was 33 C so they are wrong”
I think they were also one of the first outlets to claim the audio was doctored? Which… lines up. University students barely know what they are doing and university professors are generally eager to be “the big dog” for funding and fame purposes. So “This is slightly weird” becomes “We have found discrepancies”
Which gets to the point that not all OSINT is made equally.
Not really a source but as an Arabic speaker it does sound off. This is not how Palestinians speak.
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Israel isn’t mass murdering Palestinian children. They’re bombing Hamas terrorists, who are using children as human shields. That is 100% on the terrorists.
You’re fooling yourself if you think the Israeli military actually knows where Hamas is and is target bombing. If they knew where Hamas bomb factories and the like were, then they would have bombed them before the attack. Israel is just bombing random targets. Like apparently several thousand strikes, some serious WW2 level bombardment. Seems much more likely such factories would be underground.
You’re falling into the trap of thinking Israel has some kind of legendary intelligence force when the attack showed they were only fooling themselves.
The intense bombing is just to drive away the population and empty out the area so the Israeli military can go in with ground forces without taking a lot of casualties. They won’t go in on the ground unless a majority of people leave the area. Urban fighting with high rise buildings is a guarantee for mass casualties on the attacking force. The Israeli military is mostly reservists, so a lot of people with minimal combat experience and mostly did checkpoint duties in their active time in the IDF.
Gaza is among the most densely packed population on earth. Dropping bombs where there are schools, supermarkets, apartment buildings and hospitals is a deliberate attempt by Israel to terror bomb and mass murder. This is bloodthirsty revenge by a racist ethnostate.
If they released all the hostages or hadn’t taken any brazenly in the first place it might be purely revenge but I tend to think that had some effect.
I mean they should be negotiating for the release of hostages. There’s no reason to believe that these bombings will have any effect on hostage release, especially since Israel is considering a ground incursion into Gaza to wipe out Hamas.
Don’t swallow the whole hook, it makes it difficult to get out.
Fuck, man, a genocide doesn’t have to be the fucking Holocaust to be bad.
Yeah, the Germans skipped the decades and decades of a apartheid regime and skipped straight to open genocide after a handful of years of oppression.
Clearly Israel should have listened better to how to get rid of the untermench living among them. /S
I see we’ve moved from appeal to emotion and whataboutism to Motte and Bailey, might I suggest an appeal to ignorance next.