I think for a lot of people it’s about having some place to go during the day that they don’t have to pay for. If someone is unable to work a regular minimum wage job but is able to do simple tasks it could be either be stay at home and do nothing everyday or having either the government or the family pay for care. This allows a company to provide the supervision and a place for safe social interaction. People in these programs get to feel like an actual member of society rather than just a burden on their family. They can have something to do all day and come home and talk about their day at work instead of what they watched on TV. It’s unfortunate that they can’t provide enough value to justify a company to pay minimum wage but at least this way they get to have some money to help their family with bills or spend on their hobbies.
That’s why you pay them minimum wage or more and get a kickback from the government, that ends up being cheaper for everyone in the long run and you’re not exploiting them.
exactly. the free market has shown it is not able to take care of society’s most vulnerable. instead, the government should be tasked with taking care of its people.
There are volunteer positions for anyone wanting to simply just do something through the day.
If EMPLOYERS want to have these people on staff, they should pay them. Period. We give people minimum wage regardless of their job. Whether a toilet scrubber, trash handler, or floor mopping person, these are all jobs worthy of minimum wage.
If a job needs to be done and they need to hire someone to do it, that person should get minimum wage, regardless of who it is, what their situation is, etc.
If companies really want relief about this stuff, maybe they should lobby for the wages that they spend on differently capable persons to be offset with a tax break or something… Let that person go home with a full paycheque. Twisting this into doing everyone a favor for giving those people something to do, is the same mentality that was used to enslave entire races. People literally thought that some races didn’t have the intellectual capability to handle their business, so by enslaving them, we were doing them a favor. The justification was always insane, they thought that by providing the bare minimum of food for their table and a space to sleep, they were entitled to own that person. It’s fucked up.
Now we’re trying to justify paying them less or not at all because they operate different to NT people?
… I’m sorry, that’s a twisted and toxic perspective.
So instead of getting paid below minimum wage you’d rather they don’t get paid at all?
Volunteer positions also often cannot provide the often increased need for supervision and guidance, especially for new or atypical tasks.
To be honest, I don’t know every individual business, but the vast majority of businesses that I know that hire people with mental (or sometimes physical) impairment do so as part of a social goal to give back to society. We have a shop around my hometown where they fix bicycles. Takes longer and you often have a neurotypical supervisor that jumps in if needed, but at the end it’s a great way to give these people a place in society and a small pay that they can see as their contribution to their family (or their own lives).
Oh, I don’t think they should take the volunteer positions, but if companies want unpaid labor, that’s their option… Not “hey Joe, you know how Pat is kinda, special? Do you think we could just… You know, cut their pay? Do you think that they would notice?”
Because that’s what I get from vibe of the article.
Volunteer should be a choice that someone can make. To choose to be there without pay to do something because you want to help out. Generally for things like a outreach programme or something… I volunteered a few hours of my time and a few gallons of gas to drive out there, to help clean up a neighborhood that was overgrown and had drug paraphernalia (like needles) and other debris around. I’ve also volunteered to do communications for charity events, and I’ve done a huge amount of volunteering as a first-aider, back in the day. It’s good to volunteer your time every once and a while.
But if someone is showing up for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and they’re considered a “volunteer”, shit is fucked up.
I used to work rather extensively with a local Goodwill (like) company, at my previous job. They had a deli/kitchen kind of storefront on one of their sites and they employed several people with various challenges over the years, and I’m certain each and every one was a paid employee. I ate there often to show my support.
And that’s what it should be. There was always someone around (full time permanent employee) who was able to supervise and handle anything that might unexpectedly happen.
I worked with in a garage where they employed someone to valet the hire fleet. He was incredibly slow but did a decent job. Half his wage was paid for by a government agency, he was originally on an unpaid work experience thing and the agency asked the boss if he would hire him. He said no so they offered to partially fund his wages so boss said ok. This is similar(better imho) but there are people you simply would not employ (unless you are doing it for charitable reasons) because you can get someone else for the same money.
I agree. Some positions simply cannot be filled by people who are incapable of doing the work. It’s the same way you wouldn’t hire a blind person to drive a truck.
There’s nothing wrong with giving the legally blind some kind of employment that they are capable of completing, it just limits their options. I would equiviquate it to hiring joe the garbage-man to do vector calculations for spacetravel. You would want someone who is educated and trained in that specific field to do the work; and companies would pay for that privlidge. Fact is, not everyone can do every job.
Giving someone who is differently abled, a job, is good for everyone. It cuts down on the requirement for the government to foot the bill of their care, as otherwise those that need the assistance would be on disability payments. By holding a job, they can contribute to society, and earn more than they would on assistance, while the government is likely paying aproximately the same amount they would for disability payments, just to the employer, who suppliements that with additional contribution. It shifts the social responsibility of the thing slightly, and allows those who are unable to do more, to do what they can and enhance the society in which we live - which is a sense of accomplishment that we all crave.
Either way, everyone working a job should be paid for what they do, and that wage should be enough to have their basic needs met… a liveable wage. Regardless of all other factors.
Which isn’t to desparage those who cannot work, they should be able to live as well, irrespective of why they cannot work. Welfare and/or disability support should provide for those who are incapable. Which is why I support UBI. everyone should have their needs met. Period. Food, Shelter, clothes on their back. The trick with UBI is how to make it so that people still want to work “minimum wage” type jobs. If UBI is covering their needs then those without any motivation or desire to better themselves will, in theory, just loaf around all day. “minimum wage” type jobs should be UBI (all basic needs met), alongside a relatively small payment to bump them above the basics to be able to afford luxuries like a premium mobile phone or premium mobile phone plan with data and unlimited texting or something. Internet at home that’s faster than the most basic connection they can otherwise get, nicer stuff… you know… like a car.
The main issue with UBI, IMO, is that many feel weird about giving one organization (namely the government) that much control over their flow of money; and giving it on such a scale that everyone is reliant, in some way, shape, or form, on government payments to live. Honestly, I understand that, but I disagree that it should be a problem. If the system is designed correctly, then that won’t be a problem. The main argument I have, for UBI, is that it would dramatically simplify unemployment/welfare. Everything goes through and is automatically approved as long as you’re a citizen. Whether you’re getting some form of unemployment insurance or welfare or something else (like disability), you’re getting the same, or similar amounts regardless as UBI. Hell, most of the current infrastructure wouldn’t even need to change that much, businesses would just show that John is employed here and we’re covering more than their UBI, and the company would handle it from there, as soon as John gets released from their employment, the company already has to register with the government that John no longer works here, that would trigger an action where John would need to update his UBI records, and as soon as John does, voila, UBI money going directly into John’s account. Reason for unemployment? doesn’t matter. John gets UBI. As soon as John finds a new job, the job registers that John works here as of X date, and the company is now covering John’s UBI payments through his wages.
Argh, sorry for the rant, but it’s something that I’m pretty passionate about.
I really doubt volunteering fills the same need. They want to feel like they’re contributing something back to the family that is taking care of them. They want (and deserve) a paycheck for their work.
And the problem is companies don’t want them compared to a neurotypical employee for the same wages.
Volunteering is generally very limited when it comes to for-profit organizations. aside from “work experience” and some “intern” type jobs, taking work for no pay is rare outside of not-for-profit orgs.
Often, Volunteers are on a very temporary basis, usually a day or two, very infrequently. Even interns or work experience programs are time-limited, and an employer either needs to hire that person properly, or let them go when the time runs out.
AFAIK, you can’t be a permanent full-time volunteer. I mean, you can just show up and help out if you want, but it would only be of your own volition to do so; and I don’t think anyone in their right mind would stick around generating profit for someone else for a protracted period of time, just because they can.
Normalizing that, by not paying disabled workers is not the right move. I think we agree on that. At the same time, we can’t really eliminate volunteer jobs. I do a non-trivial amount of volunteering, and there’s a good number of things, like fundraisers, that would likely collapse or be very ineffectual if we did away with volunteering entirely… Fact is, nobody should be given volunteering as their only option for work; especially long-term.
My firm works with at risk youth, we provide training and resources to assist them in pursuing a career in the trades.
We pay them $18/hr, the government gives us a subsidy of something like $8-12/hr depending on the situation.
The employee is still paid pretty much what their colleagues are. There are ways to handle this that don’t end up with mentally challenged people working for slave wages.
Caring for disabled in a corporate/industrial environment is very very expensive. Also these disabled shouldn’t need money, they should get all the support they need from the government, with or without job.
It’s unfortunate that they can’t provide enough value to justify a company to pay minimum wage
What’s unfortunate is when people don’t understand that everyone, even mentally disabled persons, deserves a living wage at minimum.
No one is paid based on the actual “value” they provide to a company. If that were the case, CEOs would be paid a fraction of what they’re currently paid, and the lowest paid workers would make multiple times more than what they currently make.
I agree CEO compensation is really messed up but I don’t thinks it’s really relevant. A company gets to decide how much they value labour and if someone’s work isn’t enough to justify paying them they simply won’t have a job. I know it’s awful to pay less than a living wage but it’s important to remember these people are almost universally living with their family or in group homes. The options are really only either they don’t work or they work with a company paying less than minimum wage. Obviously the government subsidizing the wages is an option but I’m not sure if that’s the best use of resources. Would it not make more sense to directly subsidize families and group homes based on economic need.
I agree but why would a company employ people with learning disabilities when they could employ people without learning disabilities and pay them the same amount. Think there is a bigger underlying issue. Governments should incentivize employing these people so it becomes a non issue.
What’s unfortunate is that you don’t believe that the government should fully cover all the needs of disabled people and their “job” is not for money, but to become a part of a collective, bring some value for the community and feel alive. They shouldn’t need any salary, just the possibility to be useful and helpful to others.
Yeah dude CEOs just trick other capitalist out of their money. The most successful companies just toss their people into a room and make whatever they want and do whatever they do.
Indeed, it is so very important for someone to feel like they have a purpose and are important. My father suffered brain damage and is ineligible for work even though he wanted to trick the person assessing him. Being allowed to do a menial job (with the people assisting him in his kob getting subsidized and him getting barely any pay) with any pay at all, made him so proud he even has pictures framed of him working there around his house.
He has been unable to work now (even there) for quite a few years and has taken up drinking instead. I don’t really blame him either.
I think for a lot of people it’s about having some place to go during the day that they don’t have to pay for. If someone is unable to work a regular minimum wage job but is able to do simple tasks it could be either be stay at home and do nothing everyday or having either the government or the family pay for care. This allows a company to provide the supervision and a place for safe social interaction. People in these programs get to feel like an actual member of society rather than just a burden on their family. They can have something to do all day and come home and talk about their day at work instead of what they watched on TV. It’s unfortunate that they can’t provide enough value to justify a company to pay minimum wage but at least this way they get to have some money to help their family with bills or spend on their hobbies.
That’s why you pay them minimum wage or more and get a kickback from the government, that ends up being cheaper for everyone in the long run and you’re not exploiting them.
exactly. the free market has shown it is not able to take care of society’s most vulnerable. instead, the government should be tasked with taking care of its people.
There are volunteer positions for anyone wanting to simply just do something through the day.
If EMPLOYERS want to have these people on staff, they should pay them. Period. We give people minimum wage regardless of their job. Whether a toilet scrubber, trash handler, or floor mopping person, these are all jobs worthy of minimum wage.
If a job needs to be done and they need to hire someone to do it, that person should get minimum wage, regardless of who it is, what their situation is, etc.
If companies really want relief about this stuff, maybe they should lobby for the wages that they spend on differently capable persons to be offset with a tax break or something… Let that person go home with a full paycheque. Twisting this into doing everyone a favor for giving those people something to do, is the same mentality that was used to enslave entire races. People literally thought that some races didn’t have the intellectual capability to handle their business, so by enslaving them, we were doing them a favor. The justification was always insane, they thought that by providing the bare minimum of food for their table and a space to sleep, they were entitled to own that person. It’s fucked up.
Now we’re trying to justify paying them less or not at all because they operate different to NT people?
… I’m sorry, that’s a twisted and toxic perspective.
So instead of getting paid below minimum wage you’d rather they don’t get paid at all?
Volunteer positions also often cannot provide the often increased need for supervision and guidance, especially for new or atypical tasks.
To be honest, I don’t know every individual business, but the vast majority of businesses that I know that hire people with mental (or sometimes physical) impairment do so as part of a social goal to give back to society. We have a shop around my hometown where they fix bicycles. Takes longer and you often have a neurotypical supervisor that jumps in if needed, but at the end it’s a great way to give these people a place in society and a small pay that they can see as their contribution to their family (or their own lives).
Oh, I don’t think they should take the volunteer positions, but if companies want unpaid labor, that’s their option… Not “hey Joe, you know how Pat is kinda, special? Do you think we could just… You know, cut their pay? Do you think that they would notice?”
Because that’s what I get from vibe of the article.
Volunteer should be a choice that someone can make. To choose to be there without pay to do something because you want to help out. Generally for things like a outreach programme or something… I volunteered a few hours of my time and a few gallons of gas to drive out there, to help clean up a neighborhood that was overgrown and had drug paraphernalia (like needles) and other debris around. I’ve also volunteered to do communications for charity events, and I’ve done a huge amount of volunteering as a first-aider, back in the day. It’s good to volunteer your time every once and a while.
But if someone is showing up for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and they’re considered a “volunteer”, shit is fucked up.
I used to work rather extensively with a local Goodwill (like) company, at my previous job. They had a deli/kitchen kind of storefront on one of their sites and they employed several people with various challenges over the years, and I’m certain each and every one was a paid employee. I ate there often to show my support.
And that’s what it should be. There was always someone around (full time permanent employee) who was able to supervise and handle anything that might unexpectedly happen.
I worked with in a garage where they employed someone to valet the hire fleet. He was incredibly slow but did a decent job. Half his wage was paid for by a government agency, he was originally on an unpaid work experience thing and the agency asked the boss if he would hire him. He said no so they offered to partially fund his wages so boss said ok. This is similar(better imho) but there are people you simply would not employ (unless you are doing it for charitable reasons) because you can get someone else for the same money.
I agree. Some positions simply cannot be filled by people who are incapable of doing the work. It’s the same way you wouldn’t hire a blind person to drive a truck.
There’s nothing wrong with giving the legally blind some kind of employment that they are capable of completing, it just limits their options. I would equiviquate it to hiring joe the garbage-man to do vector calculations for spacetravel. You would want someone who is educated and trained in that specific field to do the work; and companies would pay for that privlidge. Fact is, not everyone can do every job.
Giving someone who is differently abled, a job, is good for everyone. It cuts down on the requirement for the government to foot the bill of their care, as otherwise those that need the assistance would be on disability payments. By holding a job, they can contribute to society, and earn more than they would on assistance, while the government is likely paying aproximately the same amount they would for disability payments, just to the employer, who suppliements that with additional contribution. It shifts the social responsibility of the thing slightly, and allows those who are unable to do more, to do what they can and enhance the society in which we live - which is a sense of accomplishment that we all crave.
Either way, everyone working a job should be paid for what they do, and that wage should be enough to have their basic needs met… a liveable wage. Regardless of all other factors.
Which isn’t to desparage those who cannot work, they should be able to live as well, irrespective of why they cannot work. Welfare and/or disability support should provide for those who are incapable. Which is why I support UBI. everyone should have their needs met. Period. Food, Shelter, clothes on their back. The trick with UBI is how to make it so that people still want to work “minimum wage” type jobs. If UBI is covering their needs then those without any motivation or desire to better themselves will, in theory, just loaf around all day. “minimum wage” type jobs should be UBI (all basic needs met), alongside a relatively small payment to bump them above the basics to be able to afford luxuries like a premium mobile phone or premium mobile phone plan with data and unlimited texting or something. Internet at home that’s faster than the most basic connection they can otherwise get, nicer stuff… you know… like a car.
The main issue with UBI, IMO, is that many feel weird about giving one organization (namely the government) that much control over their flow of money; and giving it on such a scale that everyone is reliant, in some way, shape, or form, on government payments to live. Honestly, I understand that, but I disagree that it should be a problem. If the system is designed correctly, then that won’t be a problem. The main argument I have, for UBI, is that it would dramatically simplify unemployment/welfare. Everything goes through and is automatically approved as long as you’re a citizen. Whether you’re getting some form of unemployment insurance or welfare or something else (like disability), you’re getting the same, or similar amounts regardless as UBI. Hell, most of the current infrastructure wouldn’t even need to change that much, businesses would just show that John is employed here and we’re covering more than their UBI, and the company would handle it from there, as soon as John gets released from their employment, the company already has to register with the government that John no longer works here, that would trigger an action where John would need to update his UBI records, and as soon as John does, voila, UBI money going directly into John’s account. Reason for unemployment? doesn’t matter. John gets UBI. As soon as John finds a new job, the job registers that John works here as of X date, and the company is now covering John’s UBI payments through his wages.
Argh, sorry for the rant, but it’s something that I’m pretty passionate about.
I really doubt volunteering fills the same need. They want to feel like they’re contributing something back to the family that is taking care of them. They want (and deserve) a paycheck for their work.
And the problem is companies don’t want them compared to a neurotypical employee for the same wages.
So? Companies would rather not pay anyone anything. They can stuff it and pay everyone fairly.
Then these people simply won’t get hired…
Volunteering is generally very limited when it comes to for-profit organizations. aside from “work experience” and some “intern” type jobs, taking work for no pay is rare outside of not-for-profit orgs.
Often, Volunteers are on a very temporary basis, usually a day or two, very infrequently. Even interns or work experience programs are time-limited, and an employer either needs to hire that person properly, or let them go when the time runs out.
AFAIK, you can’t be a permanent full-time volunteer. I mean, you can just show up and help out if you want, but it would only be of your own volition to do so; and I don’t think anyone in their right mind would stick around generating profit for someone else for a protracted period of time, just because they can.
Normalizing that, by not paying disabled workers is not the right move. I think we agree on that. At the same time, we can’t really eliminate volunteer jobs. I do a non-trivial amount of volunteering, and there’s a good number of things, like fundraisers, that would likely collapse or be very ineffectual if we did away with volunteering entirely… Fact is, nobody should be given volunteering as their only option for work; especially long-term.
My firm works with at risk youth, we provide training and resources to assist them in pursuing a career in the trades.
We pay them $18/hr, the government gives us a subsidy of something like $8-12/hr depending on the situation.
The employee is still paid pretty much what their colleagues are. There are ways to handle this that don’t end up with mentally challenged people working for slave wages.
Bullshit. Showing up at all is worth more than $7.25/h. If you can’t afford to pay decent wages, you can’t afford to have employees.
Caring for disabled in a corporate/industrial environment is very very expensive. Also these disabled shouldn’t need money, they should get all the support they need from the government, with or without job.
What’s unfortunate is when people don’t understand that everyone, even mentally disabled persons, deserves a living wage at minimum.
No one is paid based on the actual “value” they provide to a company. If that were the case, CEOs would be paid a fraction of what they’re currently paid, and the lowest paid workers would make multiple times more than what they currently make.
I agree CEO compensation is really messed up but I don’t thinks it’s really relevant. A company gets to decide how much they value labour and if someone’s work isn’t enough to justify paying them they simply won’t have a job. I know it’s awful to pay less than a living wage but it’s important to remember these people are almost universally living with their family or in group homes. The options are really only either they don’t work or they work with a company paying less than minimum wage. Obviously the government subsidizing the wages is an option but I’m not sure if that’s the best use of resources. Would it not make more sense to directly subsidize families and group homes based on economic need.
I agree but why would a company employ people with learning disabilities when they could employ people without learning disabilities and pay them the same amount. Think there is a bigger underlying issue. Governments should incentivize employing these people so it becomes a non issue.
What’s unfortunate is that you don’t believe that the government should fully cover all the needs of disabled people and their “job” is not for money, but to become a part of a collective, bring some value for the community and feel alive. They shouldn’t need any salary, just the possibility to be useful and helpful to others.
Yeah dude CEOs just trick other capitalist out of their money. The most successful companies just toss their people into a room and make whatever they want and do whatever they do.
Indeed, it is so very important for someone to feel like they have a purpose and are important. My father suffered brain damage and is ineligible for work even though he wanted to trick the person assessing him. Being allowed to do a menial job (with the people assisting him in his kob getting subsidized and him getting barely any pay) with any pay at all, made him so proud he even has pictures framed of him working there around his house.
He has been unable to work now (even there) for quite a few years and has taken up drinking instead. I don’t really blame him either.