The instance owners do not wish to host potentially problematic content.

I will try to locate a more suitable instance.

  • Dodecahedron December@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    Yeah fuck those instance owners for not taking on legal risk! We don’t pay them and they should pay for our legal fees out of respect for the content we generate (which is copywritten and could get the instance owner in legal trouble)!

    Edit: typos. Also, to explain: I just want y’all to consider the folks who keep the instances running and the legal risk they take. Some instances don’t want to take on the risk. It’s not a left/right thing, it’s a risk-assesment thing. Removing content that might get them in legal trouble doesn’t mean that the instance is taking a political, ethical or moral stance on the topic. It’s really weird to think otherwise. My point was that when the instance owners get a dmca takedown notice (doesn’t really matter what country, doesn’t really matter if theh own the rights to that content or not), they are faced with a choice: do nothing and get sued, possibly needing to shut down the free service as a result. Or, they can choose to remove the content.

    Conversational forums like lemmy are still places where links to pirated content can exist. I know people just talk about pirated content and that it’s moderated but hear me out: sometimes people get busy and fall behind. They could then end up with a lawsuit.

    To avoid this, a reasonable policy might be to just avoid the topic altogether. But that doesn’t make them right or left wing, it just makes them regular site admins without an unlimited amount of money or the desire to go off grid and on the run. Yeah, that’s the worst case scenario, my point simply being “free service run for long time if rules prevent legal threats to the service’s livelyhood” see: napster.

    • XIN@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      They have a right to be exclusive and we have a right to not like it.

    • eleitl@lemmy.worldOPM
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      1 year ago

      Some jurisdictions are relatively more permissive than others, so the legal risk is not uniform. There will be some user flows until the instance landscape has settled.

      • Dodecahedron December@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Which jurisdiction, mine or yours? Or what about the other person who will comment under this?

        Is that the 123.52.33.19 jurisdiction or the 95.32.122.99 jurisdiction?

        In other words, on the internet, how are you going to reliably change the content to fit the viewer’s jurisdiction?

        Just so people know, when you send a request to the internet, you’re not sending a request from your home address, you’re sending it from an IP address. Those IP addresses are not linked to City, State and Country, at least not reliably. MaxMind has a “GeoIP” database of “best guess” countries for IP addresses, but even if lemmy software were to implement geoIP gating like this, you’d have to taylor individual communities to individual jurisdictions and…

        NO ONE IS DOING THAT. Nor will they anytime soon, most likely.

        On the internet, it’s far easier to just shut the topic down, as was done with piracy. Sure, folks can share pirated content inside the “spiders” community if they wanted to, but that’s at least a little harder for rights holders to find than the “piracy” community. And by rights holders I mean companies that scan the web for keywords and link and send out automated DCMA takedown requests.

        Your point may stand in court but we’re on the internet and those instance owners are likely trying to avoid going to court.

        Again, instance owners aren’t instance owners because they want to be your political advocates in court, at their own expence, at the threat of the site being shut down.

        • eleitl@lemmy.worldOPM
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          1 year ago

          The relevant part is the legislation of the instance hosting location and the degree of anonymity of the instance owner and his attitude.

          Hetzner is the very opposite of bulletproof hosting, the owner of lemmy.world is fully public and his attitude to potentially problematic content is on public record.

          • Dodecahedron December@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            legislation of the instance hosting location

            Unless the hosting location is in the principality of SEALAND, and even if it is in SEALAND I think you’re going to be surprised about jurisdiction. Edward Snowden revealed a while back that all traffic crossing us borders is monitored. If the site is in the US, the server is within their jurisdiction and can easily be seized. If the site is outside of the US, traffic to that site is monitored from traffic originating from inside the US.

            What if the content is hosted overseas? Doesn’t matter, still sued

            The internet is global. Local jurisdiction for copyright infringement isn’t something I would hang my hat on. With greatly paid lawyers comes lots of power.

            the degree of anonymity

            read: the ability of the instance owner to shield themselves from legal trouble by trying to outrun it. (not a sustainable practice).

            his attitude

            read: the preferences of the instance owner to sheild themselves from legal trouble.

            bulletproof hosting

            read: the ability for users to post content that might get the instance owner in trouble with the expectation that it will not get the instance owner in trouble because it is legally-sound or otherwise outside of any jurisdiction of US law.

            the owner of lemmy.world is fully public

            read: the instance owner complies with the law.

            his attitude to potentially problematic content is on public record

            read: the instance owner’s preference for the instance owner to sheild themselves from legal trouble have been mentioned online. uh huh…

            • eleitl@lemmy.worldOPM
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              1 year ago

              I don’t seem to be able to make myself understood. Once again: monitoring of (encrypted) connections is irrelevant. Or just getting the data from your own federating instance.

              Consider an anonymously paid bulletproof hosted lemmy instance. The admin is unknown, the hosters are not responsive to takedown requests, jurisdiction is neutral or welcoming. I can think of multiple such controversial instances that have survived for decades. It’s the gold standard, but silver or even bronze is far better than a jumpy self-censoring guy hosting stuff at a severely problem-averse hoster like Hetzner.

              If end users want to add protection layers to that it is their own prerogative and out of scope. EOT.

              • Dodecahedron December@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                No I understand you quite clearly. You want to make the instance owner liable for your content. I am saying the instance owner does not want to be legally liable for your content. Do you seee how the world does not revolve around your wishes and desires? How much are y’all paying this instance owner to make it worth their while for taking on all this risk, zero monies? Yeah that won’t work, and the community is likely to be banned or defederated. Oh look, like it did.

                I am just explaining the reality. You are explaining your desires.

                Example: Some pedophiles started posting CSAM to lemmyshitpost, and now lemmyshitpost is down. Do you understand me yet?

            • mindbleach@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              No, trying is what you’re doing, with this weak trolling. I told someone railing about laws that they can’t even spell their name.

              This thread’s subject is about three steps removed from the subject of copyright law, and no worthwhile discussion is going to emerge from someone smugging it up about that subject when they literally do not know the first thing about that subject.

                • mindbleach@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I’m not convinced you understand reality beyond the level of posturing. Like if you repeat “HOW EMBARRASSING!” loud enough, that will become real.

                  Which is delightfully ironic when you just spat the word “toxicity” over a mistake you then repeated, four straight times.

                  What you’re doing is trolling and you’re not very good at it.

      • Dodecahedron December@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        You’ve never heard of Copywrite law? Is libgen not a site for distrubiting copywritten content like text books?

        Look, I’m on the information wants to be free side of things, but I do know a bit about the law.

        Please, oh wise one, break down my stupidity and leave no detail out!

        • mindbleach@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          You’ve never heard of Copywrite law?

          Google it.

          Don’t scoff. Copy-paste that term into any search engine. See what you get instead.

              • Dodecahedron December@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                Oh yeah buddy you got me. I mispelled a word so I don’t know shit. You must’ve gone to harvard with your intellect.

                What’s your point? I mispelled a word so I don’t understand the concept or the law?

                Want to explain to me how libgen is fair use because it is a transformative work?

                Want to argue why I don’t know shit about shit?

                Or are you just going to continue to hoist yourself on your own petard?

                • mindbleach@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  “Uh well yeah I couldn’t find the first thing about this topic with a map and a tour guide, but I’m still the expert in this super serious debate.”

                  You barged in on me rolling my eyes at someone for making a simple mistake… and took three tries to even understand that’s what was going on. Yes. Yes I do doubt your understanding of the general concept and its laws.

                  Fortunately I don’t care about your opinion of either, because what this specific thread is ABOUT is whether forums should support civil disobedience.

                  This is a community for breaking certain laws.

                  It doesn’t break laws, itself. It’s as defensible as any marijuana-enthusiast subforum. So we’re wondering why the line is drawn here, and if this is where the line stops. A lot of other morally necessary discussions on Lemmy will concern such laws.

                  Anyone going “but there’s laws!” is confused.

                  None moreso than the people who don’t even know their name.