This was originally posted as a comment response in !asklemmy@lemmy.world.

Back in December, the instance hosting 196 (lemmy.blahaj.zone) announced that, as part of its mission as a trans-friendly space, harassment based on gender or neopronouns would remain prohibited—even if the user in question was suspected of being a troll. Users were asked to disengage, block, and report suspected trolling behavior rather than bring harassment into a community already vulnerable to that kind of bullying.

There was a small backlash to the policy from some users. This led to a number of “toe the line” posts that weren’t outright gender-based harassment but strongly signaled an intent to misgender or harass in the future. Blahaj admins promptly removed all offending comments during this wave of dissent.

Important to note: The majority of the Blahaj and 196 users supported the policy, upvoting and praising the admins for creating a safe space for trans individuals.

By January, the backlash had mostly subsided, and the trolls causing issues had moved on. However, 196 moderator @moss and their team remained unhappy with the policy. They cited “personal differences” and felt Blahaj admins had overstepped by removing comments themselves rather than allowing 196 mods to address users who openly expressed intent to harass others.

Yesterday, @moss and the 196 moderation team enacted a major decision without consulting the community. They locked !196@lemmy.blahaj.zone and instructed users to move to !196@lemmy.world.

This move was extremely unpopular. Many users strongly dislike lemmy.world for various reasons (a complicated topic better unpacked elsewhere). The announcement post was met with widespread backlash, and @moss eventually locked it. In response, a few users created a new community on Blahaj: !onehundredninetysix@lemmy.blahaj.zone. The new community quickly grew in size and activity, with most users opting to stay on Blahaj rather than migrate to lemmy.world.

It’s clear @moss and the 196 moderators underestimated the community’s attachment to its home on Blahaj. By attempting to uproot the group without input, they alienated much of the community. As a result, most users have moved to the new Blahaj-hosted community, which has already become the more active space.

TL;DR:
@Moss and the 196 mod team tried to move the community to lemmy.world without consulting anyone. The decision was extremely unpopular, leading to backlash and the creation of a new Blahaj-hosted community that most users now prefer.

  • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.worldEnglish
    92·
    39 seconds ago

    However, 196 moderator @moss and their team remained unhappy with the policy.

    None of us disagreed with this policy, and Drag was not banned over neopronouns. Drag was banned for an egregious level of harassment of another user + encouraging violence from and the suicide of trans people.

    If y’all think that’s acceptable behavior, that’s fine, but keep it the fuck away from us. Half of the mod team is trans, and we don’t need that shit in our lives.

    • quirzle@lemmy.zipEnglish
      5·
      2 hours ago

      I don’t see drag mentioned in the explanation post on the community this is about; what’s the connection to the situation the OP is about?

      • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.worldEnglish
        4·
        2 hours ago

        However, 196 moderator @moss and their team remained unhappy with the policy.

        Not a single mod disagreed with this policy. While I’m sure it wasn’t her intention, Ada’s post certainly made it seem like it, though. You wouldn’t believe how many times I’ve had to tell people why Drag was banned after she posted it.

        • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
          7·
          2 hours ago

          can you rephrase your point i think i and others are misunderstanding it bigtime like i personally can’t tell who you are responding to~

          • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            6 minutes ago

            I’m not sure what you’re confused about, honestly.

            People harassed Drag and that wasn’t okay, but during the backlash you mentioned in your post, many people pointed out that Drag had a legitimate history of “trolling”, the most egregious of which was telling someone repeatedly to kill themselves, along with general calls for violence from and the suicide of trans people. We banned Drag for this.

            So when Ada made her post, it looked like she was calling us out for labeling Drag a troll, and indeed that is the narrative a lot of you ran with.

            So now that you’ve had a hand in perpetuating this misunderstanding, I’d appreciate it if you set the record straight. Because frankly, I’m sick of people like you labeling me and the other mods as bigots. I’m sick of you guys putting words in our mouths. If you’re going to make a “writeup” about us, then tell them the real reason we wanted to leave LBZ.

  • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
    452·
    7 hours ago

    This kind of thing needs to happen way more often.

    Moderators don’t “own” the communities they host. They’re just taking responsibility for the space. I actually really wish that their effort was rewarded with more of recognition and less of headache, but the answer to that is certainly not to say that they are the “boss” of the users in that community, and the users need to do what they say.

    It’s especially hilarious for 196 because they weren’t actually taking on the moderation responsibility. Ada was. So they just wanted to show up and be the boss without doing anything in particular to help anybody. I hope the new community finds blahaj-native moderators and they find some fulfillment in keeping the space healthy and organized.

    • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.clubEnglish
      1·
      3 hours ago

      Moderators don’t “own” the communities they host. They’re just taking responsibility for the space.

      The problem is that, as encoded, moderators do “lease” the space from admins. There isn’t a system built into Lemmy where qualified users can demote moderators. Hell, the Lemmy devs implemented Reddit’s ranking based on time seniority.

      The only difference between Reddit and Lemmy is that Lemmy admins aren’t held to the policy of relative non interference that Reddit holds itself to.

      • OpenStars@piefed.socialEnglish
        1·
        8 minutes ago

        There isn’t a system built into Lemmy where qualified users can demote moderators.

        As much as I agree that there is a very large degree of similarity between Lemmy and Reddit, there is though: community members can appeal to an admin, and there is also the “owner” level even above that, if not the same. You really wouldn’t even want to go above that, bc if someone pays for a machine then to some degree it really truly is “theirs”, unless you go down a few levels and do what the 196 members did: just flat walk out and go elsewhere:-).

        Also, PieFed has some really interesting ideas for democratization of moderation where instead of the purely binary “remove” vs. “allow”, power is placed into the hands of individual community members to tweak the settings to get the kind of experience that they want. e.g. posts below a voting threshold can be automatically collapsed, or even hidden altogether, thus allowing the entirety of a community to make that decision for someone, if they want, or the user can not use that feature and preserve the ability to read the content - again, unlike a mod decision that must either preserve the content in its entirety or else remove it altogether, without capability to provide such nuances. Additionally, there are other factors such as labels that can be placed onto user accounts (“new user <2 weeks old”, “has >10x more downvotes than upvotes”, “posts but never comments or votes so looks like an unregistered bot account”, etc.), plus you can define your own emoji labels to help remind you not to engage or something.

        I don’t know if or when we’ll ever see such on Lemmy, which was written by authoritarians for their own purposes, and we are merely allowed to use their software. If we want differently though, we’ll need to create it. As K/Mbin, PieFed, and Sublinks are doing!:-)

      • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
        81·
        3 hours ago

        I think the key phrase is “the consent of the governed.”

        It makes perfect sense to let someone step up who wants to take charge of removing spam, keeping the article titles consistent, that kind of thing. It involves them “taking control” of the community to some extent, even overriding some individual people on some issues sometimes, but that’s fine. For as long as what they’re implementing is actually what the free people inhabiting the community are mostly in favor of, it’s fine.

        Once the mods decide that they’re now the boss of the community, and the software system gives them controls they can use to override the consensus of the community because all those free people are now in “their” place, it’s a problem. Honestly, even the solution of everyone just wandering over to some new place instead is a little bit imperfect. To me it would be better if the people in the community had some more direct control over what’s going on with the moderation. But certainly, that’s a vital check on the ability of moderators to start running the place like a little kingdom.

          • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
            1·
            2 hours ago

            Yeah. Slashdot had a wonderful system which randomly assigned the then-version of moderation duties in very small allotments, periodically, to users who had been around for a while and had popular content. So most of the moderation was done democratically by the users, but in a way that was highly resistant to people trying to game the system to abuse moderation powers.

            The system was so different that it’s hard to compare or say how well it would work now, but I thought it was a really good idea.

            • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.clubEnglish
              1·
              2 hours ago

              As I recall, a lot of that was in up votes and down votes, with Slashdot only giving out a limited amount per person per day and capping the max at +/- 5.

              I don’t think it would work for a Reddit clone. There would also need to be a way to provide a way to validate users who should vote on a sub, since you wouldn’t want someone to make a million accounts to drown out the rest of the users in a sub.

              • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
                2·
                2 hours ago

                Slashdot had way more users and issues with attempted abuse than Lemmy does currently. It’s easy to forget, but it was a pretty big platform, they had to get their tech way in advance of the cup-and-string “functional I guess” moderation that Lemmy currently offers. I think that was the exact thinking behind limiting it to people who were creating content, and having the selection process be a little opaque, and having a lot of randomness and a small amount of power at a time.

                I’m not talking about votes, there was something up beyond that. I honestly don’t even remember the details, but everyone had a certain number of votes per day, and then certain users would get randomly selected to get something like 3 moderation actions very occasionally. I don’t even remember the details, but I’m pretty sure it was a step above just being able to vote which everyone could do.

                • HobbitFoot @thelemmy.clubEnglish
                  2·
                  35 minutes ago

                  https://slashdot.org/faq/metamod.shtml

                  The first round of moderation seems tied to up votes and down votes, you just needed to provide a reason why instead of just clicking a button.

                  The second round of moderation was tied to how people voted in the first round.

                  So, most of the public facing moderation activities were really focused on up voting and down voting, with some of the down voting triggering other mod action.

    • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
      131·
      7 hours ago

      they are the “boss” of the users in that community

      Mods surely act like it, that’s reddit modding culture at its core.

      Back in my day when the forums were the backbone of online discussion modding was a janitorial job. Spammers, off topic, bad faith behavior got modded.

      Reddit style modding is censorship of content and tone so that community is discussing topic with facts and tone that mod approves.

      With that said most of fedi subs are modded properly but step into any higher traffic sub lime news and politics and then you are facing censorship.

        • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
          21·
          5 hours ago

          Edit: Oh, I got so irritated that UM had replied that I didn’t even see he hadn’t replied to me, and got annoyed that I thought he was messaging me from a new account after me telling him I was blocking him.

          Whatever. I’m blocking this new account, also. I suspect that the placement of his reply right where I will see it, on the topic of free speech, accidentally from a new account which I haven’t blocked, is not accidental. But I’ll let the moderators decide if that constitutes harassment or not.

      • PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat
        2·
        6 hours ago

        Yeah. On Usenet, when spam first started becoming an issue, there were people who were arguing against deleting it, because they didn’t want to step into the territory of having someone standing over the community removing messages. They would rather have the spam than have someone doing that to other people’s content.

        On the modern internet, that’s not the answer, as anyone who has tried to use an unmoderated forum will tell you. But obviously also, the answer is also not for the moderators to be the boss of the users, who have to obey them.

    • RubberDuck@lemmy.world
      9·
      7 hours ago

      Maybe moderators should be referred to as caretakers in the fediverse… seems to fit the role much better.

  • .Donuts@lemmy.world
    332·
    7 hours ago

    For anyone thinking “it’s their community, they can do what they want with it. Start your own if you disagree”:

    A lot of users (including myself) believe that a community fundamentally belongs to said community. It’s not so much “you need to ask for permission to do X” but more like “is this what the community itself wants?”

    Of course, not everything can be solved by community consensus, but to me, a community is nothing without the members. And if the members want X, Y or Z, provided it’s within instance rules, moderators should help facilitate that.

    • Blaze (he/him)@feddit.orgEnglish
      312·
      7 hours ago

      I don’t remember who said it, but the “community members are not cattle that you can just move around” seemed fit

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
      231·
      7 hours ago

      Precisely. Add to this that 196 has history that precedes both Lemmy and Blahaj zone. The 196 community is a group of humans with their own wills and values, irreverent to any mod or leader.

      196 chose Blahaj and Ada. The mod team should have respected that.

      • quirzle@lemmy.zipEnglish
        5·
        4 hours ago

        They certainly don’t seem to see it that way, from this comment:

        we aren’t stealing your community. the people who built and facilitated this community are the people who are migrating this community.

        • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
          11·
          4 hours ago

          lmao sure enough

          that comment was posted while !196@lemmy.blahaj.zone was still locked. it’s now unlocked.

          at the time i think the mods hadn’t realized how deeply they stepped in it and thought it was simply a matter of misunderstanding that could be corrected. i think they are starting to catch up now.

    • Universal Monk@lemmy.todayEnglish
      21·
      5 hours ago

      These are some great points. To be honest, before reading this conversation I was in the group of: “it’s their community, they can do what they want with it. Start your own if you disagree”

      After reading about all the 196 stuff, I’m definitely rethinking my views. Thank you!

      • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
        3·
        37 minutes ago

        “it’s their community, they can do what they want with it. Start your own if you disagree”

        That is exactly what happened, to be fair. But nobody truly owns the community, it’s made of individuals who choose to gather there.

        • Universal Monk@lemmy.todayEnglish
          2·
          26 minutes ago

          I go back and forth with my thoughts on this. I mean, if someone actually started the community, I sorta think it’s theirs. But if you just have a bunch of mods, and the original founder is gone, then I think it’s the community.

          I have very small communities that I mod. And as of now, I am in charge of what goes there and what doesn’t because no one posts. If it grew, I’d still like to think I was in charge (under instance admin of course)

          I mean are the posters of an instance in charge of the instance or is the admin who set it up?

  • Universal Monk@lemmy.todayEnglish
    6·
    6 hours ago

    I’m new to the conversation, but may I ask what the number “196” means in this context? Does it signify something important to the transgender community?

    • Lvxferre@mander.xyz
      15·
      6 hours ago

      A group of room-mates once created a subreddit called r/195, after the number of their apartment. The sub became too popular for the room-mates to moderate, and they closed it down. Then someone created r/196 as its successor.

    • idegenszavak@sh.itjust.works
      12·
      6 hours ago

      Originally there were some guys living in a dorm somewhere in room 195. They started posting good quality shitposts on r*ddit on r/195. The subr*ddit started to grow, and they didn’t want to deal with moderating a lot of people so they closed the sub. Followers of the subr*ddit started r/196 as a response. Than the apicalipse happened, and at the time r/196 was at its peak it was recreated here as well by the r*ddit refugees.

      So it’s a random room number plus one.

    • HootinNHollerin@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      3·
      5 hours ago

      I think I read a comment before that said it was a dorm room number of those that started the group back before lemmy. Not sure what platform it was originally on but it was also on Reddit

  • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
    52·
    7 hours ago

    Why would mods think that they can decide where shit posters gonna do their art… Do they think they own the artisté?

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOPEnglish
      101·
      4 hours ago

      disagree, i see no loss of value or community here. a mod team that doesn’t represent the will of its community was ousted. that’s the story.

      i guess if “democracy” is pure teen drama to you, then sure.

      • Revan343@lemmy.ca
        4·
        2 hours ago

        It’s pretty teen drama, but mostly because the mods are acting like dramatic teenagers.

        I was impressed with how seemlessly the switch to c/oneninetysix went, Lemmy’s still small enough that my feed was just suddenly full of the new sub instead of the old one