Communities should not be overly moderated in order to enforce a specific narrative. Respectful disagreement should be allowed in a smaller proportion to the established narrative.
Humans are naturally inclined to believe a single narrative when they’re only presented with a single narrative. That’s the basis of how fiction works. You can’t tell someone a story if they’re questioning every paragraph. However, a well placed sentence questioning that narrative gives the reader the option to chose. They’re no longer in a story being told by one author, and they’re free to choose the narrative that makes sense to them, even if one narrative is being pushed much more heavily than the other.
Unfortunately, some malicious actors are hijacking this natural tendency to be invested in fiction, and they’re using it to create absurd, cult-like trends in non-fiction. They’re using this for various nefarious ends, to turn us against each other, to generate profit, and to affect politics both domestically and internationally.
In a fully anonymous social media platform, we can’t counter this fully. But we can prune some of the most egregious echo chambers.
We’re aware that this policy is going to be subjective. It won’t be popular in all instances. We’re going to allow some “flat earth” comments. We’re going to force some moderators to accept some “flat earth” comments. The point of this is that you should be able to counter those comments with words, and not need moderation/admin tools to do so. One sentence that doesn’t jive with the overall narrative should be easily countered or ignored.
It’s harder to just dismiss that comment if it’s interrupting your fictional story that’s pretending to be real. “The moon is upside down in Australia” does a whole lot more damage to the flat earth argument than “Nobody has crossed the ice wall” does to the truth. The purpose of allowing both of these is to help everyone get a little closer to reality and avoid incubating extreme cult-like behavior online.
A user should be able to (respectfully, infrequently) post/comment about a study showing marijuana is a gateway drug to !marijuana without moderation tools being used to censor that content.
Of course this isn’t about marijuana. There’s a small handful of self-selected moderators who are very transparently looking to push their particular narrative. And they don’t want to allow discussion. They want to function as propaganda and an incubator. Our goal is to allow a few pinholes of light into the Truman show they wish to create. When those users’ pinholes are systematically shut down, we as admins can directly fix the issue.
We don’t expect this policy to be perfect. Admins are not aware of everything that happens on our instances and don’t expect to be. This is a tool that allows us to trim the most extreme of our communities and guide them to something more reasonable. This policy is the board that we point to when we see something obscene on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com so that we can actually do something about it without being too authoritarian ourselves. We want to enable our users to counter the absolute BS, and be able to step in when self-selected moderators silence those reasonable people.
Some communities will receive an immediate notice with a link to this new policy. The most egregious communities will comply, or their moderators will be removed from those communities.
Moderators, if someone is responding to many root comments in every thread, that’s not “in a smaller proportion” and you’re free to do what you like about that. If their “counter” narrative posts are making up half of the posts to your community, you’re free to address that. If they’re belligerent or rude, of course you know what to do. If they’re just saying something you don’t like, respectfully, and they’re not spamming it, use your words instead of your moderation abilities.
Cool, totally looking forward to having to “debate” people that my identity isn’t mental illness. Sure am happy I get to dust off my refutation of that “occasionally”. You can say what you want, as long as you word it right. Just be inquisitive! I can see the “toilets” now: “Oh gee whiz mister, I sure do not understand why you think you’re a lady. I heard it was a mental illness. Can you explain it to me? I pwomise to respect you and leave my anecdotes out.”
I am only speaking for myself and not other mods and if this gets me de-modded, so be it, but I would consider telling someone that being trans is a mental illness to be a violation of the “attacks on people or groups” section of the ToS. I will absolutely not stand for bigoted attacks in communities I moderate and I will stand by that until I am demodded.
I appreciate that. This rule change in the face of what Meta is doing on Facebook has me wildly on edge.
I totally understand and sympathize. I have zero tolerance for bigotry.
I generally approach comments like that in a different way… I’m not arguing with the person posting, they’re already a lost cause, all I can do is present logic and evidence for anyone else who stumbles across the thread in the future.
There’s more at stake than just arguing with someone who is clearly wrong, it’s making sure posterity understands that they’re clearly wrong and we understand they’re clearly wrong.
See:
https://youtu.be/xuaHRN7UhRo#t=1m04s
It’s more that this change might allow that to stay or be non-reportable depending on the mod. It lends that form of content the air of legitimacy, even if refuted. They would likely cite this rule change if asked to stop. And it’s just exhausting to have to see that. Maybe, in an ideal implementation, this won’t cover that kind of lead and this form of harassment disguised as ignorance will still be removed. I’m just not that hopeful…
Thinking you have the right to free speach and expression while symultaniously expecting the right to silence anyone else exercising those very same rights.
I would classify that as hypocritical and if someone where to genuinely believe it i would call that mental illness.
If this idea is part of your identity then its your right to excercise your free expression and refute it. Just as much as its my right to say it in the first place.
The saying “my freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins” would apply here.
There’s nothing hypocritical about being for free speech that doesn’t harm anyone while simultaneously being against harmful disinformation and othering of vulnerable groups of people.
Much less when you yourself belong to one of those groups and are being attacked and othered.
Just couldn’t help yourself, could you? You just HAD to use the trope of the bigots yourself. You can fuck right off with that hateful shit.
If u think quoting a saying is a valid argument then that truly is mental illness.
Double think is one hell of a drug. Thats a very interesting place to draw the line on free speach. Please explain where u draw the line on harmfull disinformation. Also by the rules equality it doesnt matter if ur in a group of vulnerabile people in gonna treat u the same.
Again by rule of equallity i dont give a fuck what group u are im gonna be equallity offensive to u.
And here u are arguing that ur not mentally ill. U know what the extremely metallh ill oftem claim? I though the irony if if u responded would be pretty funny.
Whats the poiny of telling someone to fuck off if u dont mean to harm my feelings? Are u excercising ur right to offend me? Ohh the irony.
Also if u reapond to any of this please explain where u draw thw line on harmfull disinformation (i feel we can have an actually productive conversation about that).
If you think quoting a saying and then elaborating on how it applies isn’t a valid argument, then you’re either arguing in bad faith, dangerously obtuse, or both. Judging by your continuing insistence on labeling anyone who disagrees with your view insane, I’m gonna guess it’s both.
You clearly don’t know what double think means if you think distinguishing between two superficially similar but substantially different things is an example of double think.
Yeah, I tend to draw the line just before intentional and unnecessary harm. I’m kooky like that 🙄
I already did. Very clearly.
That’s some bigotry- and victimization- justifying horseshit. Treating everyone equally does not mean treating respectful debate and othering abuse as equally valid.
Words can be weapons and how and why they’re wielded matters just as much as with physical weapons.
That’s STILL not how equality works. You’re accidentally sorta right, though: your closed minded vitriol is loathsome and offensive to every decent person, not just the ones it victimizes.
Nope. I’m arguing that not subscribing to your “free speech absolutism” nonsense is not proof of mental illness. Before diagnosing strangers for disagreeing with your warped perspective, maybe crack open a medical textbook or just a dictionary. Your definition of mental illness is histrionic and bigoted to say the least.
Seriously. Look up what mental illness is. This willful ignorance shtick is not the principled stand you think it is. It’s idiocy typical of several different personality disorders (which I’m not armchair diagnosing you with and which isn’t the same thing as mental illness).
You’re getting increasingly incoherent and once again showing ignorance of the actual meanings of words. Are you under the influence of any intoxicants or is this combination of belligerence and idiocy just how you always act?
I DO mean to insult you and “harm your feelings”. You see, unlike the innocent people already being stigmatized and othered who you insist on antagonizing and condemning, you have actually CHOSEN to assign yourself the role of Devil’s Advocate to protect hate speech and thus deserve emotional harm that might make you less comfortable on your edgelord throne of bullshit.
I am indeed. Bigots and their defenders aren’t a vulnerable and persecuted group.
Seriously, just do a search for “irony definition”.
Already did.
Based on this and your initial comment, I highly doubt it, but I’ll give you one last reply to demonstrate that any of this is getting through to you. If your reply to this indicates that it hasn’t, I’ll consider you unreachable and stop wasting my time.
Well u didnt elaborate u quoted a saying to dismiss the core point of my argument without addressing it.
No i think both ideas are fundamentally incongruent and thus your reconsilition of them is doublethink (if this by choice i do not know).
I more meant define how/when words are causing intentional and unnessasary harm. I see you trying to avoid specifics here.
U gave a vague a subjectivly interpretable definition, draw a fuckibg line a stand on it.
No it means treating ur dumbassery just the same as anyone else
When was the last time someone was executed by words. When was the last time someone was killed by words. Words may encourage someone to kill onself but words ars not responsible for that the actions of someone upin themselves is.
The fucking dictionary “the right of different groups of people to have a similar social position and receive the same treatment” im doing my part by treating u equally to anyone else spouting anti liberty shite.
Im not a free speach absolutists i draw the line at actionable incitment of violence. I didnt actually say u had a mental illness i simply outlined a set of beliefs i believed to be exhibited by people i believe to be mentaly ill and u put urself square inside that box of belief.
Again didnt call u mentally ill.
If u wanna talk about meaning of words lets talk about the menqibf of words “free speach”.
So ur using speach with the goal to bring me harm “deserve emotional harm”. Im a firm believer in equallity and thus if that is ur right to do to me it is my right to do to literally everyone else.
Again i dont give a single fuck what group u are im gonna treat u the same as anyone else. U dont get special treatment u are just like everyone else
Referring me to google is not a rebuttal its a condescending bad faith insult.
So essentially what ur saying is that if i dont agree with you then ur gonna consider me unreachable and a lost cause. Seems like ur incapable of accepting me because of my differing beliefs, imagine if thats how i treated you for whatever group u identify as (dont tell me i dont know and thus cant be bias, nor do i give a single fuck).
Good chat i had fun.